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Projects Modified Lakester Build (THUNDERCASKET)

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by patmanta, Nov 12, 2012.

  1. patmanta
    Joined: May 10, 2011
    Posts: 2,950

    patmanta
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Woburn, MA
    1. MASSACHUSETTS HAMB

    Man, If I knew then what I know now I would be!

    I had to slow down a little on the thrashing I was doing. I realized I wouldn't have an enjoyable summer OR build if I kept up every moment of every weekend. I wasn't going to hit the cut off for this year's TROG regardless and I want to do stuff like take trips to the country and do a couple swap meets at Candia.

    As for that hardware, that's HW store drawer Grade 8 pickins, which were slim. All I could get was this or 2" so I figured I'd replace them when I get around to doing a hardware order. You'll not also that all I could get for nuts was Nylock. Ideally I want to use shiny bullet acorns out there but finding a set I like has proven difficult.
     
    volvobrynk likes this.
  2. Still looks better than mine!
     
  3. patmanta
    Joined: May 10, 2011
    Posts: 2,950

    patmanta
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Woburn, MA
    1. MASSACHUSETTS HAMB

    Oh, I'm not so sure I'd say that! Though once you've got rot on the bottoms to patch, it really doesn't matter if it's 1" or closer to 6", it's still a matter of welding in a whole panel.
     
    chessterd5 likes this.
  4. I guess it's a grass is always greener thing.

    I was going to make 1" or 6" joke but this is a family site!
     
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  5. patmanta
    Joined: May 10, 2011
    Posts: 2,950

    patmanta
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Woburn, MA
    1. MASSACHUSETTS HAMB

    Rained out of wanting to do Candia today so I butchered my body instead. this is the general idea.

    1435514755541.jpg 1435514769099.jpg 1435514782817.jpg
    I discovered that the rear quarters on a touring body are no small task to remove cleanly. There are assorted, hidden spot welds conecting the front portion of the rear sheet metal to both the rear section and the substructure. If this body were in better shape, I would have taken the time to deal with it, but since I'm going to need to cut most of the lower portions away and re-make a lot of the structure anyway, I just cut it up.

    1435514796569.jpg 1435514807942.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2015
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  6. patmanta
    Joined: May 10, 2011
    Posts: 2,950

    patmanta
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Woburn, MA
    1. MASSACHUSETTS HAMB

    Put the floppy body on.

    1435519433487.jpg 1435519454700.jpg

    It looks like the rear crossmember is going to end up right at the back of the body, possibly neither inside nor outside, which is going to pose some issues as far as sheet metal.

    1435519466204.jpg 1435519477291.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2015
    volvobrynk likes this.
  7. patmanta
    Joined: May 10, 2011
    Posts: 2,950

    patmanta
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Woburn, MA
    1. MASSACHUSETTS HAMB

    In further photo dumping news from the weekend. I have discovered a couple issues with where the engine is sitting. Firstly, My Torque Tube wants to sit at about 0° and secondly, I have little to no clearance to run a set of lakes style headers; even the stock headers will take some doing to get in there.

    The mounts I used are about a half inch or so lower than flush mount. SO, it looks like I may need to remove them and go with another set which can be raised to flush or even potentially above the top rail. Right now the top of the rail is sitting at 16" at the motor mount and 20" right before the rear kick up.

    That flange and bend coming off the front port is just the piece from the stock headers bolted right on to the block. It is making contact with the frame.

    20150628_164553.jpg 20150628_164605.jpg
     
  8. Beau
    Joined: Jul 2, 2009
    Posts: 1,879

    Beau
    Member

    I started my build about the same time you did. Hoping to have it driving next month. I have not had a life since the build started and I don't feel bad. Buying the stuff is the easy and fun part. Building it takes time and fun away sometimes. Id take a break and figure out what you actually want to build, then start again.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2015
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  9. patmanta
    Joined: May 10, 2011
    Posts: 2,950

    patmanta
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Woburn, MA
    1. MASSACHUSETTS HAMB

    Thanks, @Beau

    I may not get much done until the end of July at this point. So much going on that I want to get to do.

    Next things on my knock list are making motor mount spacers to fix that issue (see my thread,
    Flathead Biscuit Mount Shoulder Bolt & Spacer Use?) and pulling the body off of the subframe. I need to make a new subframe; plan is to use flat stock and weld/bend it around the perimeter, then weld that to some 3" flat stock crossmembers, cut it loose and build the rest of the floor structure.

    Right now, this is where i think I'm going, but I want to mock up a track nose in paper soon and see how I like it.

    [​IMG]
     
  10. patmanta
    Joined: May 10, 2011
    Posts: 2,950

    patmanta
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Woburn, MA
    1. MASSACHUSETTS HAMB

    Rootin tootin motor mountin body cuttin week off from work so far.
     

    Attached Files:

    volvobrynk likes this.
  11. How deep on the channel?
     
  12. patmanta
    Joined: May 10, 2011
    Posts: 2,950

    patmanta
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Woburn, MA
    1. MASSACHUSETTS HAMB

    Going down over the frame, so about 4" down and widened 1/4"
     
  13. patmanta
    Joined: May 10, 2011
    Posts: 2,950

    patmanta
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Woburn, MA
    1. MASSACHUSETTS HAMB

    Did a staycation last week. It was my birthday, so we did Candia (I actually sold [then bought] a good number of things) and spent most of the week and weekend on the car. I also fit in some time to drop @BenLeBlanc 's frame with my neighbor, Paul G. (who might be taking the 1917 Dodge off my hands to do one last build).
    20150731_150702.jpg

    I did my motor mount spacers, which there will be a Version 2.0 of, with an angle cut to the inside so I cover the entire top of the biscuit.

    20150728_173403.jpg
    20150728_180318.jpg

    I also got my subframe cut out and the template made up for. I'm going to do a detailed thread on that operation, because I don't think I ever found one that covered what I did. I learned pretty quick that spraying the whole area with WD40 before hitting it with the sawzall keeps the rust dust out of my eyes.

    20150729_150114.jpg 20150729_160929.jpg
    20150731_191906.jpg 20150802_123252.jpg

    I also took a road trip down into Souther MA and over to the cape. I got to visit with @general gow in his shop, got a gander at the Sachem Special and @CrazyUncleHarry 's boattail. Then went out East to pick up a roll bar that came out of an A RPU, which should fit nicely.

    20150802_161655.jpg 20150802_161707.jpg
     

    Attached Files:

  14. patmanta
    Joined: May 10, 2011
    Posts: 2,950

    patmanta
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Woburn, MA
    1. MASSACHUSETTS HAMB

    This weekend was almost entirely awesome. I say almost, because while working on fabricating my subframe, I stepped on a metal spike, that I had made by accident when my portaband wandered a bit off course. (I'll insert a photo of it later). That ended my Saturday early, but fortunately, I backed off it once it had pierced my shoe and just the skin of my foot instead of going into meat and bone.

    Before that, I made progress on the subframe. I built a cross brace / cowl hoop. I built it too tall, but you get the idea, which is to have it come under the cowl bracing. Once I shorten it, I can cut the flat bar to fit around the transmission and bell. It almost fits now as you can see in the pictures.

    20150808_160748.jpg 20150808_182555.jpg 20150808_182608.jpg 20150808_182618.jpg 20150808_182623.jpg

    I'm just going to cut the vertical pieces in the middle and drop them down to fit snug against the bottom of the cowl brace I think. Though I'm thinking a urethane spacer might be an idea.

    20150808_182632.jpg

    The portaband makes pretty nice, flush cuts for the most part (I'll go over these spots with the TIG again, they're already welded on the inside now). My neighbor keeps telling me to use my vintage Craftsman jigsaw though. He says that's what they used to use for just about anything that didn't require a torch.

    I was up and around early Sunday and went to the Fryeburg ME Swap Meet. It's annual and only the second year so it wasn't really big. The Down East Dickering guys were supposed to be there but I didn't see any evidence of them. Anyway, the point is that there were indeed HAMBy parts there and I bought this rear section for a 30 Murray Body Sedan for FIVE DOLLARS! I may end up using the body I make from it with the other A frame I have and the 300 big six from the origins of this build to get something very different, perhaps somewhat akin to the Modified Murray or a Bantam dragster.

    20150809_163347.jpg 20150810_084133.jpg 20150810_084145.jpg
     
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  15. patmanta
    Joined: May 10, 2011
    Posts: 2,950

    patmanta
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Woburn, MA
    1. MASSACHUSETTS HAMB

    I think I know what I'm going to do with the 300 and the parts I collected for the original concept of this build.

    1439507212673.jpg
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2015
  16. Comp. Coupe?
     
  17. Koz
    Joined: May 5, 2008
    Posts: 2,029

    Koz
    Member

    I'm like'n the subframe concept. Simple solution to a usually difficult assembly. Keep up the good work!
     
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  18. patmanta
    Joined: May 10, 2011
    Posts: 2,950

    patmanta
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Woburn, MA
    1. MASSACHUSETTS HAMB

    That would be an easy way to use it, but I don't live close enough to a strip get that deep into drag racing. As it sits it could also make an interesting Dirt Modified, which would be more up my alley.

    But right now I'm looking at it with a bit more ambition and imagination. I'm seeing more of a 60's show rod with a healthy dollop of metalwork.

    Stretch the doors forward 4-8"
    Slanted chop
    35 Front window, A pillar, and roof

    Here is a crude sketch:
    bAntAm1.jpg

    Thanks!

    I'm going to try and go more in-depth and make a tech thread. I've got to work it out and digest it first through. My first thought for improving the process is to use the steps I took to make a form and then running the material inside it, which would yield a subframe with the same OD as the original. I am probably going to do this since I have another cowl sitting around and I'll eventually want to build it.
     
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  19. Koz
    Joined: May 5, 2008
    Posts: 2,029

    Koz
    Member

    I've never been a fan of the square tubing substructures because of the loss of height inside the car sometimes and I just don't care for the way they look from under the car, (just my personal opinion, I know some folks love that look). I've been building most of my stuff much like a factory floor but it requires a large amount of layout time and some serious templating. The repop subrails are a bargain but I build a lot of channeled cars and odd rods which they are not available for. Your method is simple an cost effective.
     
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  20. patmanta
    Joined: May 10, 2011
    Posts: 2,950

    patmanta
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Woburn, MA
    1. MASSACHUSETTS HAMB

    Thanks, @Koz
    Maybe folks will take to calling it a @patmanta (or Fitzgerald) style subframe! ;)

    I've been approaching this method mainly from the Channeling front from the beginning, so I've tried to think it out to be able to go either way. The real challenge with making a subframe, no matter what you use, is nailing the outer perimeter; you can use anything you want, elegant or crude, go get the sills and body mounts but that outer line is the magic.

    Since I have not found ANY Model T subrails being reproduced or good plans for the originals, I knew I had to come up with something and use my rotten subframe to do it.

    For someone that's doing cars for customers repeatedly (I'm not there yet), I'd suggest taking whatever subframes you've got and making jigs like I've started my subframe. That will net you a form that can be used over and over and will give you the correct contour and OD to fit original sheetmetal without modification (I think I said that already, oh well).

    As for my plan, I am going to need to stiffen the cross structure; the 3" flat is great for forming but gets floppy once it's set on the frame. For a wood floor build, the simple solution is to use half inch angle and but it against the flat stock. I'm not finding any real gain in using box or rectangle tube to do this with the steel shapes I can get locally and angle is easier to weld on IMO. The angle is the same thickness as the rest of the structure and the only half inch tube I can get is half the thickness. I don't see any gain in weight loss between the two options and the angle will be SUPER easy to weld in comparison. I may consider trimming the top edge of the angle for a steel floor insert and/OR just try to keep it out of the way.
     
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  21. volvobrynk
    Joined: Jan 30, 2011
    Posts: 3,587

    volvobrynk
    Member
    from Denmark

    Have you seen the ideer I posted on young Ben's buildthread? Doing them up in sheet metal, and do
    them simple and closed at the bottom. I know it's frowned upon to do dual layer of sheet metal but it box it up nice and stiff. A d it can be primed with zinc from the inside and given anti corosion to make it last a lifetime.
    I'm also on the "not so big fan of 1/2x1/2 steel subframe"-team.

    But to each his own.

    I like the look of the body plan!

    Would be an awesome little racey looking hottie.
     
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  22. patmanta
    Joined: May 10, 2011
    Posts: 2,950

    patmanta
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Woburn, MA
    1. MASSACHUSETTS HAMB

    I don't think I did see that or I've forgotten.

    The problem with doing it in sheet is getting the curve and the bend. It is A LOT more time consuming to shrink and match the curve in a bent piece of sheet than to run flat bar and clamp it.

    My neighbor, Paul said they used to use 14ga for floors back in the 50's & 60's though. He said they pretty much just cut the shape out with a jigsaw and put it in flat, no beads or ribs. The thickness held it sturdy enough for them (over an existing or channeled subframe). I'd do something like that over laminating sheet. Laminated sheet would be far more expensive between the number of sheets and the primer in between layers. It would still be a time bomb for rust as well.
     
  23. volvobrynk
    Joined: Jan 30, 2011
    Posts: 3,587

    volvobrynk
    Member
    from Denmark

    This is my post:

    If you can find access to a sheet metal sheer and brake, anglegrinder with thin cutting wheels and a desent mig welder, and the can be made up in a couple of hours and welded in one.

    And regarding lasting, framelde cars are made like that can last up to 5 decades, and so could yours!
     
  24. patmanta
    Joined: May 10, 2011
    Posts: 2,950

    patmanta
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Woburn, MA
    1. MASSACHUSETTS HAMB

    [​IMG]

    I don't think a couple of hours would do what you've got drawn there, even in a full pro metal shop. It might with a couple guys who've done it a few times before, but neither @BenLeBlanc or I have that level of experience or tools. I've got a simple bending brake, bead roller, shrinker/stretcher, and a TIG but I still think that would be a major undertaking. Your drawing is basically a recreation of the stamped stock rails, which I had considered doing in 2 pieces on the brake, shrunk and stretched, and concluded it would be a time suck that would be extremely and unnecessarily difficult as far as making subrails.

    For making crossmembers, sure, those could be made on a brake, but getting them under a half inch deep without trimming, rolling the edge (which is a challenge itself), or doing a reverse brake, would be difficult in my shop even with 20ga.
     
  25. volvobrynk
    Joined: Jan 30, 2011
    Posts: 3,587

    volvobrynk
    Member
    from Denmark

    I don't consider my self a bad ass fabricator, but I work with iron for a living, so that might be the reason for the chooses I make. But working on a brake is no bad way of doing at fast simple and the way more then ones.

    But if I was you I would do a quick test. Bent up two length of thin plate.

    I have no idea on how the gauge system works. But I do know that 1 or 1.25 will be plenty thick and do the job well! And is very fast to bend!

    Do it 2 inch center and a half on the sides. That means you need to get them sheered at 4 inch wide and as long as your brake is. And the bottom piece needs to be 3 inches wide.

    Cheep trick one: go to metal work shop of you high school and ask if there is any way you can buy sheetmetal in a desired shape/size, and at what price. If you offer to pay up front in cash, they often have what you need. And most importantly cut with a good long sheer, and not flimsy snippers or cut-off wheel! And they might have a punching tools to do the holes to weld the upper to the lower part.

    And bending two up rough, take no time in that thin material. Then you take one of them and cut both corners of the end, lay it over the other. Trace it with a permanent marker.
    Cut the line away, lay them in position and tack.

    I wish I was closer, I could come by and show you! Not that big a deal.
    I'm not trying to bulling you to do it my way, I'm just sure I found the best way to do it
     
  26. volvobrynk
    Joined: Jan 30, 2011
    Posts: 3,587

    volvobrynk
    Member
    from Denmark

    I do most of my work with simple and cheap hand tools. I own a brake, two welders TIG and MIG, a flat chisel, three angle grinders, a 4" die sander, three wooden mallets, a 5 inch ring with round edges (instead of lead bag) and an old hammer dolly set.

    I wish I had a sheer, crimper/stretcher and a beadroller. That would be so awesome. So I keep to beg, steal and borrow when it comes to my builds. And the local tech school been a good help in cutting up my material!

    And compared to some of the hambers work, mine is a little rough, being that I done mostly cheap ass DD and working with build wind turbines and being a certified welder of heavy construction, proves I'm not expert bodyman.
     
  27. patmanta
    Joined: May 10, 2011
    Posts: 2,950

    patmanta
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Woburn, MA
    1. MASSACHUSETTS HAMB

    You're talking 18ga, which is plenty thick for body panels and small floors. For the T body I'm using 20ga because it will weld to the rusted old 19ga better.
    http://www.mesteel.com/cgi-bin/w3-msql/goto.htm?url=/info/carbon/thickness.htm

    I do not have a shear, it would take a while for me to cut strips of sheet and I'd probably screw up at least one piece.

    I don't think I'd get very far walking into the local High School at my age!

    I'm going to save my 18ga for the floors. Those WILL get done on the brake and roller. It's just MUCH simpler to use flat and angle for this. It cuts out all of that material preparation you just described. All I do is cut it to length, clamp, and weld (three basic tools).

    I don't mind defending my method, that just ensures it stands up to scrutiny :cool:

    Here is a drawing I threw together:
    SUBFRAME.jpg
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2015
  28. volvobrynk
    Joined: Jan 30, 2011
    Posts: 3,587

    volvobrynk
    Member
    from Denmark

    You might be right, and I'm looking forward to see your progress!!

    The idea with going to the tech class, is because there is an off chance that someone knows you, and that can be a good thing. LOL

    But I see and respect your point!

    But I try do mine up, when I get the time from my very hectic work. And post some pics and time frame. Then we can compare notes.
     
    patmanta likes this.
  29. Just to throw in my two cents...
    Check the following thread.
    http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/tech-build-your-own-32-frame-rails.671187/
    Very cool, would love to do it one day, but think about it. It is the same exact thing as how pat is doing his Subrails. Cut to length, bend and tack as you go along.
    Think like you were building it with paper; that is what mr fay butler told me. Paper is cheaper than metal, and we all know if you were trying to make that complex curve out of a single piece of paper, there would be shrinking and stretching issues.
    Now when I was over pat's house, I did see what was going on, and it looks good. Only thing I would consider is to run a bead all the length of that 10? gauge cross piece to strengthen the thing. Doing so with that thick of a piece is tough, but at least think of it.
    Other than that, the sides will definitely hold up; even if it is in multiple pieces. If you are worried, make little tabs on the top to fold over and weld to the side pieces.
     
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  30. wheeldog57
    Joined: Dec 6, 2013
    Posts: 1,287

    wheeldog57
    Member

    Hey Pat, I have access to an industrial strength 8ft sheet metal brake. It will bend anything you may need. I am cheap too, only 150.00 an hour. HAHAHA! Seriously, gimme your drawings and a hunk of steel, and it will be done pronto. We have a bead roller at work too but it has minimal throat. Bead is 3/8 and I can go in approx 1.5in from edge. Anytime bro, let me know
     
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