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Hot Rods Model A title??

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by virge55, Jan 21, 2015.

  1. virge55
    Joined: Jan 16, 2008
    Posts: 18

    virge55
    Member

    hey, Bought and shipped in a Ford model a after talking to the builders (sinners hotrods) assured of clear correct title BUT.... after going through customs the shipping company flagged up that the title had 2012 and it will not pass IVA as a 2012 car, I've contacted the BMV in Indiana and waiting to hear what they can do, The builders are doing nothing as they have my money and no car so stiffed by them then. I have been advised to buy a clear correct title but who from?Thats my only options as yet anyone with any ideas on how to solve this please post them thanks.
     
  2. wex65
    Joined: Dec 19, 2012
    Posts: 1,101

    wex65
    Member
    from WV

    I feel for you. I used to ship a bunch of old cars back to the UK from the US when I lived there and I always made sure I saw a photo copy of the title. The year of manufacture is a MAJOR issue when importing vehicles. Not only from the IVA but also import tax implications.

    I think the issue here is what is considered a clear title. Clear title here in the US simply means no liens or levys, nothing more. It means nothing in terms of the year of manufacture. I am sure that here in the US it probably IS a clear, correct title. I have not heard 'correct' title before but assume it to mean it accurately reflects the vehicles, VIN and date of manufacture, which again I am sure it probably does.

    If their ad described the vehicle as a "1930 Model A" you have some legal legs but the cost of enforcing makes it unlikely you will want to do so.

    My imports predated IVA but I suspect your main issue is that if it comes in as a 2012 car it has to abide by a TON of regulations...emissions, safety etc. If it is anything like the SVA I don't envy you.

    Sorry I don't have any positive news but if the car absolutely wont clear IVA and the title does state it is a 2012 vehicle your choices are pretty limited, maybe returning it to the US or diverting it to another port in the EU. I brought a half dozen into Dublin which is more easy going although again a 2012 vehicles means lots of $$$ for VHT (import tax).
     
    lothiandon1940 likes this.
  3. virge55
    Joined: Jan 16, 2008
    Posts: 18

    virge55
    Member

    Thank you for taking the time to reply, replays from BMV is that they will not discuss the title because my name is not on it? no shock there then as I was not born or lived in the States! The custom people agreed it was 1931 NOT 2012 and it cleared that its the 2012 that stops registration as Historic vehicle and your correct it will not clear a 2012 based IVA, looks as if i may have to fly over to Indiana and try my luck in person.
     
  4. wex65
    Joined: Dec 19, 2012
    Posts: 1,101

    wex65
    Member
    from WV

    Getting BMV to reissue a title that currently says 2012 as 1931 is a high hurdle to clear whether you are in the UK or US. Best of luck, I really think you are going to need it.
     

  5. PushnFords
    Joined: Dec 2, 2011
    Posts: 52

    PushnFords
    Member

    Just some insight to how the system works here:

    Laws & regulations vary by state but here in Kansas for vehicles pre '49 (if I remember correctly) all that is needed is possession and a bill of sale & a title will be issued by the state assuming the VIN number isn't in the computer as an existing car. For vehicles that are 35 years old back to '49 you have to have a bill of sale & the highway patrol will come out & inspect the VIN tag to make sure it isn't altered or tampered with. If no records of the car exist then you'll be provided with a title. The process has varied a LOT depending on the actual inspector & part of what my dad is trying to do is standardize the process and make sure everyone does it the same way. If he does a VIN inspection on a '32 Ford with the original engine then it is titled as a '32 Ford. BUT...if he goes to do the VIN inspection & it is not stock or close to it (non stock style of engine, frame, etc) then it is considered an assembled vehicle and is not legally supposed to be registered as a '32 Ford. Instead it would be titled according to assembly year and tax value based on build price. This is something that only a small fraction of vehicles follow....it is VERY common to see modified cars driving around with antique license plates (lower taxes) when actually they should have normal plates & the owners should be paying higher taxes.

    Sometimes you also run into "Assembled Vehicles". In Kansas if you have a frame, body, & engine from different vehicles you need a valid title from one and a bill of sale from the other two. You turn those in at the time of VIN inspection then they remove the factory VIN tag & apply a replacement vehicle ID number. The year of manufacture is sometimes recorded as the year of the newest vehicle and sometimes as the year it is assembled. That's how the law reads...but engine swaps are so common that they will only use titles & bills of sale off of the frame & body & they ignore the engine.

    Keep in mind that each state here in the USA has slightly different laws...so there are tons of ways that you can end up with a free & clear or valid title where the year on it doesn't have anything to do with when the body was manufactured. If the car is titled using the original VIN number I'd start by contacting the state it was titled in and see if the people at the DMV can help you out. Otherwise you'd almost have to send the VIN tag back to the USA to be put on a car, a new inspection be done & title issued, then title & VIN tag shipped back to you to be installed. Not quite legal (even though it fixes a legitimate problem).
     
    wex65 likes this.
  6. virge55
    Joined: Jan 16, 2008
    Posts: 18

    virge55
    Member

    wow thats a fair interesting post thanks and does seem to explain most of what has happened to me with this car, if they had been honest I would not have touched it but I'm in the hole now and gotta find a way out of it.Thanks though.
     
  7. mike bowling
    Joined: Jan 1, 2013
    Posts: 3,556

    mike bowling
    Member

    Make sure you keep posting the builder's name that stuck you ( and his address and phone number). Shit like that don't fly on my side of town. Total butt-head maneuver! Good luck getting it straightened out. Mike from Mass.
     
  8. virge55
    Joined: Jan 16, 2008
    Posts: 18

    virge55
    Member

    sinners hot rods seymour Indianana, they build nice rods and seemed up front but then most people who wanna part you from ya cash always seem that way!
     
  9. 5window
    Joined: Jan 29, 2005
    Posts: 8,370

    5window
    Member

    I'm not quite clear here and would like more of the story. You surely do have a problem. But, on the other hand, in 7 years, you've got 10 posts, including 4 on this thread. Everything ok up until now?

    I'm also cynically curious why a gentleman from England has postings that contain so many spelling, punctuation and grammatical errors. On the other hand, looking at the Sinners website, I'm an old fogey but they don't look like they want to be all that trustworthy to me. They want to be baaaad. Weren't you distracted from the cars by the barely legal schoolgirls? To my jaded eyes, I think they're posing a lot of their cars as the dreaded "R--Rods".

    Where'd you check them out? Where were the reviews, the business ratings? I don't mean to be mean, I hope you get your car and you really were screwed. I think your best bet is to find the highest ranking customs agent in the UK you can find and get them to tell you what you need to do to clear your car. And, maybe there are Customs Brokers or lawyers (solicitors/ barristers?) in the UK who can help you. Then, you also need to find a similar attorney in Indianapolis (the capital of Indiana) to work for you there. It may not be as difficult as you think, but then again, it just might be. Sorry.
     
    lothiandon1940 likes this.
  10. flthd31
    Joined: Aug 5, 2007
    Posts: 561

    flthd31
    Member

    I hate to say it but this is really your fault.
    Building these old cars from parts that have been gathered together is not all that uncommon here in the US…nor is it illegal.
    All we have to do in my state (PA) is keep reasonable track of receipts. Document the build with pictures and have it pass a special inspection. Then you are issued a “Reconstructed title”. It will have the year of issue on the title NOT the original year of the car. It is then given a VIN plate that is attached to the car.
    These titles are not uncommon and are considered “clear” titles and are perfectly legal to use to transfer the ownership of the car.
    If you needed an “original titled” car to get it into your country, you should have verified that before you bought it.
    How in the hell are those “Sinners” supposed to know you countries import laws/requirements?
    You should have done your homework.
    Hope you can work something out.
     
  11. Rocky72
    Joined: Nov 22, 2008
    Posts: 197

    Rocky72
    Member
    from Pa.

    Did they tell you it was a clear title for a Model A ? or just a clear title ? If they told you that it was a Model A title then you can report them for internet fraud and would have a chance of getting your money back . Good luck.
     
  12. 5window
    Joined: Jan 29, 2005
    Posts: 8,370

    5window
    Member

    My A coupe here in PA was given a new VIN tag and a new title when I transferred ownership to me. That was likely because I had to register it as a passenger car where I bought it (Carlisle) but because of the chopped windshield, it had to really be titled as a street rod. This was just before the "super-special" inspections and just in the simple days (2003) when you only needed a two part inspection, along with all your receipts and four pictures. As it stands, I now have a clear 1931 Model A Ford Street Rod title.
     
  13. .................I ran into this problem recently when I attempted to buy a Model A Coupe from Pa. Upon finding out that I would have to title and register it here in Md. as a 2013 model year (the owner/builder finished the car and had it inspected and titled in Pa. as a "Special Construction" vehicle in 2013) I was forced to abandon the pursuit of the car.
     
  14. virge55
    Joined: Jan 16, 2008
    Posts: 18

    virge55
    Member

    well all of the information is here , I bought the car after talking to the guys and being stiffed with a 32 B by someone who was or the car was false, I am not at fault here I have bought a 55 plymouth,65 Thunderbird endless British classics a 64 Harley Panhead a soft tail and sportster I am a qualified Electrician I am no gentleman and did not realise I was in an Written English exam just trying to obtain help and information to use the Hotrod I have wanted all my life in respect and memorial of my 10 year old son that died of a brain tumour Dec 2012 and we always wanted a Rod together. my inability to use correct grammar OR the fact I bought a Vehicle from an shyster is not the or my point here, Regardless of how or what they build or register in the U.S IF they are to ship to another country the internet makes it easy to find out if it conforms to said country and reply to questions accordingly, I bought in good faith because I am Honest and expect (childish I know) that everyone else should be so too. A fool and his money blah blah ,so as for Barristers /Lawyers why should I pay for their children's college education with my pocket when I for one am not wrong?
     
    wex65 likes this.
  15. wex65
    Joined: Dec 19, 2012
    Posts: 1,101

    wex65
    Member
    from WV

    Best of luck in trying to get it fixed. As a Brit myself I know how difficult it can be to be in the UK and trying to fix something Stateside. If there is anything logistical I can help with from this side of the pond PM me.

    ...probably the silliest thing I have seen on HAMB is to think that just because someone was born in the UK they should be an English grammarian.
     
    lothiandon1940 likes this.
  16. cornfield county
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 147

    cornfield county
    Member
    from Indiana

    Did you purchase the car through ebay? That seems to be where that shop markets their "cars" for sale. IF you did, contact them (ebay) about the title issue.
     
  17. 5window
    Joined: Jan 29, 2005
    Posts: 8,370

    5window
    Member

    Sounds like your seller screwed up. He likely could have registered the car as a street rod and avoided getting a 2013 date for the actual YOM. Here's how PennDOT defines the two:
    Specially constructed vehicle—One of the following:

    (i) A vehicle not originally constructed by a generally recognized manufacturer of vehicles under a distinctive name and not materially altered from its original construction, but assembled from parts of various vehicles or kits, or both, and which would be commonly known as a ‘‘homemade’’ vehicle, such as the assembly of a dune buggy from the chassis of a manufactured vehicle and a fiberglass body kit, or the assembly of the chassis of a Mercury and the body of a Ford, and similar combination of makes and models.

    (ii) A vehicle which has been materially altered by the removal, addition or substitution of essential parts derived from various other makes and models and which the Department determines cannot be readily identified as a vehicle of a generally recognized make or model, such as the installation of a Rolls Royce-style hood and grill on a Volkswagen, and similar major ‘‘customizing’’ change tending to disguise the vehicle’s original make and model identity.

    Street rod—A motor vehicle, or a reproduction thereof, with a model year of 1948 or older which has been materially altered or modified by the removal, addition or substitution of essential parts and with a gross weight or registered gross weight of not more than 9,000 pounds.


    If it still looked like a Model A, it still is a Model A.
     
  18. 5window
    Joined: Jan 29, 2005
    Posts: 8,370

    5window
    Member

    OK, that's me. I'm really sorry about your son. No parent should ever have to experience the loss you did.

    As for writing, generally your presentation is better received if you take the time to check what you write. I always do at my work and I try to do it here. Yet, I'm still amazed at how many things I miss.

    Yes, you were naive and yes, you should be able to trust people. But, there's no public record that I have found with any kind of business rating for these folks you are dealing with and for the kind of money you must have spent, plus shipping the car, you really should have done some due diligence: searched them out, asked for a reputation on the HAMB, checked with the Better Business Bureau, asked a HAMBer to check them out, something. That, sadly, is the way the world works. There just aren't that many folks who will look you in the eye,shake your hand and deliver on their promises.

    As for spending money on professional help, well, you don't seem to have a very positive attitude to begin with :)
    but you have gotten yourself into a pickle and I recommend you get some professional help to get you out of it. It doesn't matter if you are in the right, you're the one on the losing side. Sometimes, I have learned the hard way, the best plan is to pay people who know what they're doing to do their job instead of trying to muddle through yourself. Would you recommend a solicitor undertake a very complex rewiring job?

    Best of luck. I hope you get your car, or your money back.
     
  19. virge55
    Joined: Jan 16, 2008
    Posts: 18

    virge55
    Member

    true very true the disolving of the English language is the amount of "non English" speaking Television from a "nameless" country, I just happen to be from London so ones English is not quite as clipped as one would like!
     
  20. ..............Yep, and he understands that now. In his defense, he doesn't do computers and really wasn't aware of the issues with titles these days. Md. insisted that it would have to be titled here as it was in Pa. or I could bring it to their one designated state inspection station and if I could reasonably prove that it was truly a the '29 Ford (Henry) on an original '32 frame (sadly no longer with numbers) then I might be able to title it here as the '29 that it is. I can't afford to buy a car and then hope that Md. will allow me to title it as other than a 2013.
     
  21. virge55
    Joined: Jan 16, 2008
    Posts: 18

    virge55
    Member

    I could not by law divulge the amount of money the last people i took to court had to pay me, lets say it was way way way more than they expected, as for being naive I took all the precautions one could from my side of the Atlantic also they are a "company" and have featured (I have just found out on Fast and Loud with my Rod) It was not some chancer from the backwoods of Louisiana BUT I may have got more Honesty from there than here. I did not want a rod that the world had played with and been every place in every colour I wanted MY Hotrod the one I (Luca my Son) had talked about and seen at various shows, now where I come from you do not ask the law or anyone else to sort these things out you do it yourself I do not treat anyone in this way I would be out of work in the blink of an eye if I did, you are right that there are not many trustworthy folks about even if there ever really was, all it is I am trying to find a solution to a problem caused by others and by the sounds of it many others have fallen into this trap too, I did not purchase through Ebay for I deplore it BUT one did see it there and then chased up and contacted seller privately also background checks on them too as stated there really is only so much you can do the rest is in the lap of the Gods.
     
  22. virge55
    Joined: Jan 16, 2008
    Posts: 18

    virge55
    Member

    Thank you, It looks like the seller may put himself out (at my cost as always) and find a relevant title which is all I asked in the first place! Thanks for you're offer and information.
     
  23. Sinners Hot Rods is a complete custom fabrication shop specializing in one-of-a-kind vehicles located in Seymour Indiana. Contact 812-580-0368
     
  24. Special Identification Number (MVIN) Application
    Special Identification Number applications for a vehicle are processed by BMV Central Office Title Processing to improve the security and efficiency of these transactions. Prior to submitting each application, verify all required information is included. Contact (888) 692-6841 with any questions.
    When submitting paperwork, include the following:
    Mail the completed packet to:
    Central Office Title Processing
    100 North Senate Avenue, Room N417
    Indianapolis, IN 46204
     
  25. Sinners Hot Rods had to apply for a title through this process unless they used a 2012 engine or frame to acquire the VIN as a Model A does not have a 17 digit VIN. An inspection by BMV with an image should be in their database.
    A "clear" title^ is misleading. This vehicle would have had a problem if it was sold stateside as it would have to pass emission testing and a VIN check.
     
  26. 5window
    Joined: Jan 29, 2005
    Posts: 8,370

    5window
    Member

    I think we all wish you luck.
     
  27. virge55
    Joined: Jan 16, 2008
    Posts: 18

    virge55
    Member

    spoken and Emailed them awaiting a supervisor to call me back regarding what they can do but from the telephone conversation it really won't be much!
     
  28. virge55
    Joined: Jan 16, 2008
    Posts: 18

    virge55
    Member

    well late info is better than none I guess, all the stuff I should have been told comes out now through the People on this forum, They never expected it to be sold to another country which is now where the problems are ! But thank you If I ever go down this route again I shall have plenty of knowledge of what to avoid!!!
     
  29. How can they say they "did not expect to sell to another country"? The got the money transfer/ money order/ check form the U.K. right? did they set up shipping?
     
  30. virge55
    Joined: Jan 16, 2008
    Posts: 18

    virge55
    Member

    well I did a bank transfer after talking to and being told all was A1 and correct, I sorted out shipping which was a ball ache as well BUT they have been helpful regarding this situation so one cannot complain I guess! it seems that they may be sorting a correct title which is all I'm asking for then i can get the car home and legal! you live and learn I suppose!!
     

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