If you are looking for common sense, avoid any DMV! Applying 2018 DMV rules to weirdo old car id's by a bunch of ex-Walmart/ex-McDonald's type workers.
All I'm saying is, "VIN" is a term which has a specific legal meaning – more specific post-1981 than post-1954 – which makes it different from the number on the side of a stock car or the roof of a police car, even though those are also numbers which identify a vehicle. The fact that that specific legal meaning was not yet decided at the time Ford decided to stamp numbers on the top of the frame rail and hidden under the cowl of Model As creates practical problems now, when there is no number to use as a VIN except a number never intended to be used strictly as a VIN – that being historically impossible – or indeed no number at all in the case of some non-US Model As.
The introduction of the VIN was a big change in vehicle identification and was a big step past a Serial number. While no two cars of the same make would have the same serial #, cars among different makes could. I personally found out that my 1924 Model T had the same serial number as a Packard (year unknown) that was also registered in PA at some point in the past. Original titles from that time period also tended to have blocks for both an engine and chassis number in the event that they were different. Today's titles don't take that into account, again due to the modern VIN system. As we all know, changing parts out on these cars was very common back then, particularly during the war when people were just trying to keep a car on the road. Ford put out instructions for transferring serial numbers when parts were replaced but that obviously wasn't always done. When it was, it was with hand stamps like the factory did and may or may not be in the exact factory location or format. Unfortunately, the majority of DMV workers or notaries (like we use in PA for title transfers) are completely ignorant of pre-VIN vehicles and can create more problems than they can solve. Even if we get a good notary here, the person at the DOT who is processing the paperwork is most certainly a little dim (thank you to the one in Harrisburg that sent me my 2024 Ford title). Ask around for a location with a knowledgeable person who can actually help you and keep you away from legal trouble. Because of the risk of any hand stamped serial number, keep good records of your vehicle including photos, receipts, etc. so that if a question of ownership arises due to an old fashioned serial number, you can prove without a doubt that the vehicle is yours and isn't stolen. The risk depends on who is making the decision. Knowledgeable people can make a good judgement on how to handle it if a question arises but an idiot can cause major headaches.
Think you've got DMV problems? Try getting a title on a new car selling north of $75,000 without an MSO, manufacturer's statement of origin. If you guessed Tesla, you're right.
Had a 65 P1800 Volvo that shared the same vin with about 6 other Calif registered units: a trailer, motorcycle ... The CHP ok'd it because none of the other registered units were a Volvo. Lets say you have a vehicle like a Model A that has a vin that was used in a legal manner to get a vehicle in the system and registered. Maybe that vin is stamped on the frame or on an aftermarket body tag. Has anyone here ever been stopped by the law and had their vehicle impounded/confiscated because of a vin discrepancy? On older cars, before vin's were standardized, some states are quite forgiving and some weird vin numbers were allowed. From past experience, if you are up front with them they will work with you, even in Calif, but as Gimpy stated, a private verifier other than the DMV can make your experience more pleasant! Will say about the DMV, it can really make a difference who you get at the counter!
I had the same problem when I was changing my vehicle titles to TOD (transfer on death). It seems someone in Montana had a like ID number as appeared on my '37 Chevy. The problem that I had with the MO DOR is that they knew of the problem but I was never notified. The official version is that they update these things upon title change. Nice work! Had I sold the car before this was made known I would have had a very pissed off buyer and understandably so. As it turned out the state made me my very own 17 digit VIN and affixed it to the B pillar. They let me drill my own holes with their drill but did not let me touch the plate to center it. They riveted the plate and stamped the heads with some special stamp. Then she told me I could touch it all I wanted.
One local builder, who I will not mention, as he has paid his debt to society, and has reformed (and turned into a really good dude), not only lost a car, but went to prison for GTA, over this. There is a right way, and a wrong way. Even in California, the right way is not difficult. Going to prison, or simply losing your car can happen. Why risk it?
fun with titles in sunny California. I bought a T bucket that was built in the 60's and had a Model A title with a "non op" on the title. even had black and yellow 60's plates to go with it but the family could not find them. it was not on an A frame of any kind, not sure what it was. traded the car for a 50 Chevy Truck and sold the title to a guy who had an original A roadster who's proper VIN was already in use. the DMV didn't seem to care someone had his VIN, this was a few years back when dicking with the California DMV was a much more simple thing to do. I never heard back from the guy so I can only assume it worked for him.
That is, and has been a crime in California. Just because nobody got caught in this case does not make it legal (or a good idea).
Why? It is filled with valuable information. At minimum, delete the posts of people admitting to violating the law. You've been here four fewer months than me, yet have under 160 posts, and most of them appear to be to sell stuff. What exactly are you contributing here, that you feel entitled to ask to have other people's posts taken away?
Please leave this post alone. I think this post contains a lot of valuable information. A lot of people have spent their time to provide this information. If the post is killed they won't take the time to respond in the future. The most valuable is probably what people don't want to hear but it is important that they hear it. If every post that someone didn't like or feel valuable was killed the data base would be bare. Charlie Stephens
My posts and others have contributed valuable information about the variables with titled cars on this thread. I fully realize there are places where they do not title, only bill of sale. Some places are pretty particular and it can result in problems. Your results may vary. No DMV problems for me, thanks been there. Please keep this thread.
As for what I am contributing here: I am a California licensed and bonded Vehicle Verifier. I specialize in old cars. Before any of your report me for advertising, I travel the highways and bi-ways of Northern California, in my spare time, on the weekends, to make sure that nobody's project is going to end in tears, asking for no more than what covers mileage, enough to cover a portion of my license and bond fees, a burrito, and a coke. I am not in this for money. If you are short on script, I will cover you (within reason). If you are a respected, contributing member of this community, or a veteran (or both), there is never a charge. Anytime someone gets into trouble for handling this incorrectly, it not only harms them, it reflects poorly on our entire community. If you flout the law, you endanger us all. Lawmakers do not see us as special. We are "car people", and we are all the same to them. The BMW club, the Honda club, us, and every hoopty car owner in an Oakland sideshow is exactly the same to them, and the more wrong that they see, the more likely it is that they will pass more laws to restrict what we do. Can each of us say that every one of our rides meets the letter and spirit of each and every applicable motor vehicle law, in each respective municipality? Want to find out via mandatory inspections? Don't bring that on us. Fenders are a fix-it ticket (or fine). VIN (and serial) tampering is a felony, nationwide. Never confuse or conflate the two.
Which brings another case. I am in Florida. The rod pictured on the icon is made up of separately purchased parts (with bills of sale for the major components) on a home built frame. Nothing has a serial number on it but I am told that I can get it titled as a "parts built vehicle" here in Florida. Anyone have any experience with this?
I cannot speak for Florida but I would opine that the Florida Department of Motor Vehicles could answer your questions. That would be the place to start and where you will finally end up. In Missouri one has to schedule an inspection with the Missouri Department of Revenue. They will look for serial numbers on major components and check these for previous theft. They will want to see receipts (and not scribbled notes on the back of a bar napkin) for the rest. No, the floor mats are free but a whole lot of other items will have to be documented. They can tell you what they need. And in the end you get to pay some fees and they will give you paperwork that will get you a title ( additional fee) and they will affix your very own MO state issued VIN plate to the door pillar. Then you are right with the Lord and the state of Missouri. Florida is probably fairly close to that procedure but they can tell you for sure.
Having to provide receipts for major car parts must be problematic for those of us who have accumulated engines, transmissions, frames, differentials etc. over years without getting any receipts as they were bought at swap meets, through the classifieds etc.
This was the case with my A roadster. Someone else had the title but I had the frame. When I went to chp for my inspection my frame number showed up as a titled car. CHP issued me a new vin that matched my frame number. In the end it worked out but if I had registered my car first with the frame the other guy with just a pink slip would have been in a tight spot trying to prove he owned the car. Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
In NJ? No way. No title, no new title. I just went through this. It cost me $750 to get some "historical documents".
I was able to get an “2009 Assembled Vehicle” - smog exempt, by having the running vehicle inspected by DMV, along with the reciepts for the build. They checked the motor to verify the pre-67 status to be smog exempt. I included all the reciepts including the material to build the frame. No problem, aside from the designation of 2009 rather than 1938 on the title. Assigned vehicle number tags were affixed to the frame and door jamb. DMV inspectors said the issues arise when someone wants their new Cobra replica titled as 1965. They are not going to title a new build as vintage car. That is part of what Coddington was doing. As far as the parts with no reciepts situation, there are provisions to title with a vehicle assembled with parts on hand in my state. I have never done that. Once again, your results may vary depending on where you live.
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