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Technical Model A rdstr from scraps tech ques.

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by Nailhead A-V8, May 26, 2015.

  1. Nailhead A-V8
    Joined: Jun 11, 2012
    Posts: 1,040

    Nailhead A-V8
    Member

    @patmanta the "car" has finally been dug out of storage...none of the driveline bits though (they all went back into storage recently lol!) but...a buddy who runs a Model A parts business is finally hunting me up that missing 1/4 panel. I've dragged everything I could find over to his shop and I plan to start assembling the body panels into something like a car over there in exchange for some labour around the shop
     
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  2. Nailhead A-V8
    Joined: Jun 11, 2012
    Posts: 1,040

    Nailhead A-V8
    Member

    [000352].jpg [000353].jpg Have I got a story for you @patmanta ...so I went to go get started on this again. I've had some pretty serious setbacks to the whole program....anyway I'm back to working out in the yard. But I'm not giving up ...
    At one point I actually had 2 beat and cut up coupe RH 1/4 panels and a driver's side also in 2 pieces. I planned to slice and dice them into a coupester...so I took them home to work on them, locked my truck up and my canopy leaving my parts in there. Get up the next day excited to finally do some pandemic projects....and there's no truck! Yep gone...stolen! I eventually got the truck back... minus the canopy and 1/4 panels:( of course! The truck was replaceable the 1/4s not so much...that's really gonna fuck with the program:mad:
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2021
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  3. Nailhead A-V8
    Joined: Jun 11, 2012
    Posts: 1,040

    Nailhead A-V8
    Member

    20181206_154138.jpeg 20190924_133410.jpg so phase 2 (or is that warp 9?) of the project...after a month or two I was helping my Model A parts buddy organize his shop and I found the roughest crustiest scabbiest pos roadster 1/4 with the top cut off ala war buggy style...yes I have a sickness...little hammer and dolly (a block of wood) work and she was looking a little less like the Rocky Mountains unrolled the edges of my completely flattened bead...my patch panels are the sides of a '57 Chev roof panel which came avavailable due to a tragic tale involving a gaggle of 5-7 yr. olds, some snow, and jumping...shaping of them is done by hand and this BBQ tank (don't worry no hammers or torches ;))looking a bit better
    [​IMG]
    starting to see a bit of the shape[​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2021
  4. Nailhead A-V8
    Joined: Jun 11, 2012
    Posts: 1,040

    Nailhead A-V8
    Member

    Just to bring this thread up to speed...
    - she won't be a Coupester... the 2 coupe 1/4's pictured earlier are gone...the pass. 1/4 is the same as the red one shown (but no patch panel for the back half) so other than that little section the body will be all roadster parts...the '30 door skins pictured will be used to create bottoms for the 1/4's since I found a rdstr pass. door (still looking for a driver's door)
    - the flatty is gone too but I have a 1932 Buick straight 8...thinkin sidedraft carbs and straight pipes comin' out the side
    - F3 brakes/F1 rear are gone....A or F1 front axle (need spindles/brakes), probably an o/t trans and 9" rear...
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2020
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  5. Nailhead A-V8
    Joined: Jun 11, 2012
    Posts: 1,040

    Nailhead A-V8
    Member

    This pic illustrates some of the major differences between coupe and roadster panels
    [​IMG]
    they share only vague commonalities...but we do know that Ford used the same fenders and trunklids so I aligned the wheel wells...[​IMG]
    this showed that the wheel well is clocked down and lower on the coupe 1/4...you can see how much higher the body bead is and shorter the coupe 1/4 is S510-19-20 359.jpg
    [​IMG]
    however lining up the beads reveals that they follow the same contour!
    [​IMG]
    so the solution is to cut and move the wheelwell up and clockwise...I also found this chunk of '30-'31 that will give me my body bead since the coupe bead is flat (like around the wheel wells on '30-31) and the roadster bead is round...where the coupe panel starts to rise up to the cockpit area is much shorter than the roadster 1/4 so i will have to cut that section out and make a piece to fill that section in...then I have a small chunk of rdstr. panel that has the rdstr. beads for the top section (cockpit/door) and the few inches needed to lengthen it...the bottom bead will be provided by a '30 door skin[​IMG]
    the bead on the rdstr. 1/4 was beaten completely flat at some point so I will recreate the flattish coupe bead on it so they're matching...instead of trying to make both round[​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2020
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  6. Nailhead A-V8
    Joined: Jun 11, 2012
    Posts: 1,040

    Nailhead A-V8
    Member

    any tips/tricks to welding this thin shit up @wheeldog57 or @sloppy jalopies ? I'm using a small Canadian Tire 110 mig and fluxcore...
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2020
  7. dumprat
    Joined: Dec 27, 2006
    Posts: 3,109

    dumprat
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from b.c.

    Ditch the fluxcore and get a gas kit. You will have more luck welding parts hat are clean than those that are all rusty.
     
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  8. wheeldog57
    Joined: Dec 6, 2013
    Posts: 2,038

    wheeldog57
    Member

    Hey Nailhead, I tried and tried to weld with flux core wire. Everyone i talked to said get gas but I was stubborn, they were right!! Totally different in a good way.
    Also, with thin tin before I weld I clean metal with a wire wheel or VERY carefully with a cutting disc. Good luck bud
     
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  9. Nailhead A-V8
    Joined: Jun 11, 2012
    Posts: 1,040

    Nailhead A-V8
    Member

    upload_2020-9-1_9-15-2.jpeg
    well it is gas optional...I'll have to look into what the gauge kit and bottle costs...for some reason I thought you had to have a ticket or know a guy to get bottles? lol
    Thanks guys...I'll keep that in mind...I haven't tried it out yet but I have some squashed chunks of Model A metal that I will cut up and practice on first...I just thought that since flux core has better penetration and all I will be doing is tack welds it would be ok
     
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  10. patmanta
    Joined: May 10, 2011
    Posts: 3,708

    patmanta
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Woburn, MA
    1. MASSACHUSETTS HAMB

    I started with flux core too and have had to use it a few times recently. IT MAKES A MESS and likes to blow through thin metal. It can be pretty dangerous too if your shop floor or work area has any flammable clutter anywhere nearby (sparks like to fly). Keeping a powerdrill with a wire brush on hand to clean your work after each tack/pass is a must. Also never cuff your pants or wear low top shoes when using flux core.
     
  11. eicke
    Joined: Jul 30, 2012
    Posts: 63

    eicke
    Member

    Back your weld with a piece of flattened copper tubing. It'll sink away the heat and the weld won't adhere to it. They sell a paddle specifically for it at Harbor Fright.
     
  12. Nailhead A-V8
    Joined: Jun 11, 2012
    Posts: 1,040

    Nailhead A-V8
    Member

  13. Nailhead A-V8
    Joined: Jun 11, 2012
    Posts: 1,040

    Nailhead A-V8
    Member

    I ended up getting the axle in post #3 I'm definitely going to strip the spindles from it...
    37-9b p.png
    If so I have a couple questions...how goofy would it look to have wide 5's on only the front axle?
    If not too goofy should I also try to save this '39 axle? it's got a lot of shit welded to it...
    If salvageable the '39 has a bit of a drop to it compared to the stock A is it too wide for the A?
    Can it be fitted with A spring perches and spring? spring over axle style? or are the spring perches too wide? (I can't measure because of all the crap welded on there)
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2021
    patmanta likes this.
  14. Axle is too wide in most peoples opinion; besides that axle looks wasted. I'd pull the hubs and backing plates; knock out the kingpin; then take torch to the axle eye and trim most of it away, and follow up with a grinder to the weld taking care to only grind "axle" away and not "spindle". Too bad they cut the steering arms off.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2021
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  15. junkman8888
    Joined: Jan 28, 2009
    Posts: 612

    junkman8888
    Member

    Having done it a few times I promise you can save both the beam axle and the spindles if you are careful with the grinder. One thing that can help is to remove the king pins and the king pin bearings, this is so you can give the spindles a wiggle as you grind, at some point the thinned weld will snap and you're home free.
     
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  16. Nailhead A-V8
    Joined: Jun 11, 2012
    Posts: 1,040

    Nailhead A-V8
    Member

    I don't have a main leaf so technically I could get one made to fit this application provided the model T spring hangers will work I just need to get the shackles on at 45 degrees when loaded?
     
  17. Make sure to post extra photos of the sub rails work! I'm about to do that on my roadster
     
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  18. Nailhead A-V8
    Joined: Jun 11, 2012
    Posts: 1,040

    Nailhead A-V8
    Member

    [​IMG]
    The 2 rear axles I have are '55-'64 GM @ 60" and '67-72 9" Ford @ 61 1/4" on this chart ...and I won't be narrowing them so a wider front axle might look better
    axlechart3.jpg
    according to this chart it is a bit narrower than the model A axle but it is 2 1/4 thick vs 2" of the model A -'36 so I might have to mill an 1/8th off each side to use A bones

    Yeah but I will probably run suicide so then they would've needed to change angles anyway
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2021
  19. Nailhead A-V8
    Joined: Jun 11, 2012
    Posts: 1,040

    Nailhead A-V8
    Member

    Going to try to save both but will sacrifice the axle to save the spindles if necessary
     
  20. Nailhead A-V8
    Joined: Jun 11, 2012
    Posts: 1,040

    Nailhead A-V8
    Member

    Yes I will!...I will be using a portion of '28-9 roadster subframe, the rear crossmember will be a modified 2 dr. sedan (they are curved instead flat like coupe/roadster) and some '30-'31 bits thrown in for good measure...then I'm channelling it 4" over the frame
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2021
  21. I was referring to the perch bolt width being too wide. The decreased difference in distance between the perch bolt and the kingpin many times causes interference between the rear of the tire and the split wishbones at full lock; unless this is taken into account when setting everything up

    You mentioned going with a suicide set-up. You can use your A perch bolts thru the side of split '37-'40 wishbones and end up with them the right width for your A front spring. Using an A frame, the tail of the wishbones will likely end up mounted inboard under the rails.

    Sent from my Nokia 2.3 using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
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  22. Nailhead A-V8
    Joined: Jun 11, 2012
    Posts: 1,040

    Nailhead A-V8
    Member

    Thanks Rich this is gold...
    * I've been searching for V8 wishbones for almost as long as I've been collecting parts for the project they never come up....I might have to use model A
    If I do a spring over with custom length spring how would it be to stretch the A bones 2 3/4" apart and leave it as a wishbone?
    I'm also contemplating a '52 F-1 axle... I do have a stock A axle (bare) and front spring leaves (no main leaf) I'm still searching for front/rear bones
    If I could attach bones to the F-1 axle suicide style it would really put it in the weeds...
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2021
  23. patmanta
    Joined: May 10, 2011
    Posts: 3,708

    patmanta
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Woburn, MA
    1. MASSACHUSETTS HAMB

    I think it looks rad if you have big n littles. Always save as much as you can. Yes the perch pins should fit. I forget what size spring you need to run spring-over on those but I know I have one because I had my AAV8 set up with spring over on a later axle. But I would stash that axle in the corner of the shop and not put a lot of time into cleaning it up and hold out for something like a 33-36 axle. The 39 is actually narrower with wider perch location so you would need to pinch your bones to be able to steer the car.

    Look here: https://droppedaxles.com/axles#1933-36%20Ford%20Dropped%20Axle

    That does not sound like a great use of project funds to me. Sell the T hangers and buy a set that takes the correct width spring. T hangers are for a thinner spring and having a custom spring made sounds like a case of 'a lot of money and effort to invest in using "free" parts' type thing to me. I would just buy a set of new perches and a spring (assuming you don't already have a Model A front spring) and go with the Model A axle until I found a 33-36 because that will swap right in with some shims on the A bones.

    [​IMG]
     
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  24. Nailhead A-V8
    Joined: Jun 11, 2012
    Posts: 1,040

    Nailhead A-V8
    Member

    I have 1 '35 16" wire I can see that on the back with like a 7.00 tire
    Then I might not split them...all depends on finding the later bones and/or the oilpan

    of course thanks I had forgotten that...
    I was going to make the spring myself or I may even find one on the trailer or princess auto (our version of pep boys) trailer spring and reverse the eyes on it...I have a shit load to choose from all widths and lengths...so i'll use that handy calculator thanks!
     
  25. Nailhead A-V8
    Joined: Jun 11, 2012
    Posts: 1,040

    Nailhead A-V8
    Member

    I've been wracking my brain over this for awhile...this is what I think I might do...how to get a dropped axle? hmmm I already have one factory dropped '52 F1... 1948-52 Ford Pickup F-1 Axle.jpg
    1948-52 Ford Pickup F-1 Axle
    2-3/8" Kingpin Boss
    50-3/4" Kingpin Center to Center
    29" Spring Perch Center to Center
    1-3/4" Wide Spring
    .8125 dia. Kingpin
    How to get wishbones and transverse spring? Seeing this bracket gave me an idea... springhang3.jpg what if I took two chunks of A axle with the spring perch bosses and slotted the center of them so the rear of the springpad lip fits between? bolts run through the top, the spring pad lip, and the bottom sandwiching the lip another bolt or two through the face of the axle into the A chunk couldn't hurt. The final perch position is behind the axle...because the A wishbone bracket swoops down there would be virtually no difference from stock except for raising the steering arms etc. but I have to buy or fab those anyway...grind the front spring pad lip off
     
  26. A truck axle always looks like a truck axle and never looks like a hot rod axle, no matter how much you squint your eyes. Just saying; you know.;)
     
  27. patmanta
    Joined: May 10, 2011
    Posts: 3,708

    patmanta
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Woburn, MA
    1. MASSACHUSETTS HAMB

    It really sounds like you are making a lot of extra work for yourself with this build. Your best bet to put this together is to use what you have that will work with little or no modification that you need to invent yourself. If you REALLY want to spend your time making a spring, knock yourself out, but it isn't something I'd want to do unless I didn't have any other things I could be doing. You said earlier that you have a buddy who has a Model A parts business, so I would urge you to put this chassis together with Model A parts and focus your energy on piecing that rough body together if you want to get this thing on the road.
     
  28. barrnone50
    Joined: Oct 24, 2010
    Posts: 562

    barrnone50
    Member
    from texas

    Very Good Advise!!
     
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  29. Nailhead A-V8
    Joined: Jun 11, 2012
    Posts: 1,040

    Nailhead A-V8
    Member

    Yup now you're getting the whole program ha ha :D all I have is time and work no money....
    Nose bleed high A straight axle, mangled '37-41, or thick & bulky but dropped truck...damned if you do damned if you don't lol:D
    Yeah that's how I know how much a dropped axle is around here:D emphasis on business...that means it's not the craigslist/swap meet deals they are marked up because it's a business.... I have to work with what I have... he will eventually get a lot of my money though:p
    sorry patmanta I meant find an A main leaf & put the springpack back together lol...or there are tons of cheap trailer springs in the ball park length wise as well as a few I have kicking around...I might check the length of T springs as I have the hangers and they look much better than the A ones with all the brackets and gobeldygook anyway ...I just mentioned I have the rest of an A spring pack (no main leaf) because well... I have them. Here's what I don't have yet: front and rear wishbones, A main leaf, A spring hangers, A steering linkage so until I do I'm trying to play with what I have until a check my wife doesn't notice comes in;)
    Thursday I have a little time...I'll post any progress and always looking for great deals on parts let you guys know what I find
     
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  30. patmanta
    Joined: May 10, 2011
    Posts: 3,708

    patmanta
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Woburn, MA
    1. MASSACHUSETTS HAMB

    OK, I think I understand a little better now. An A main leaf would be the ticket. I don't think the T main leaf would be the right width. What I have seen done with T front spring packs is Quarter Elliptics (springs cut in half) which you could make out of any suitably rated and sized spring pack.. If you went this route, you wouldn't need a dropped axle.

    If finding and buying bones is an issue, I would suggest learning to make hairpins. I have even seen early ones made out of a pair of Model T front wishbones. For the back you could fab up some simple ladder bars.
     
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