Register now to get rid of these ads!

Projects Model A rdstr from scraps

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by Nailhead A-V8, May 26, 2015.

  1. Nailhead A-V8
    Joined: Jun 11, 2012
    Posts: 1,343

    Nailhead A-V8
    Member

    Hi I'm finally getting to the point of having collected enough junk to start putting things together I've never done this before so i'm going to have alot of questions. To start most of what I have is Model A [​IMG]
    the frame has both ends hacked off so though it seems most logical to start there i'm still looking for crossmembers. I have a stock A axle and a '52 F3 axle my research has indicated that the F3 spindles are the same as F1 so Question #1 which king pins do I use to put the F1/3 spindles on the A axle? (I may know someone with a stock model A kingpin set) #2 is there machining involved? shims?bushings? do i hog axle out to f3 pins or use shims/bushings with A pins? #3 will the axle put the spindles on a weird camber or caster? #4 the f3 has 12" drums but are 8 lug aside from an impossible to find IH travelall and '40 lincoln there are no 5.5 bolt circle 12" drums out there so the next question is (and the granddaddy of all) #5 what hubs and drums can I use on these spindles?F-3 12" drums 5212bp.png
    *EDIT: Nov. '21
    1) all these body parts are gone...I have a '29 roadster shell and a much better frame
    2) have a dropped tube axle now
    3) F-3 brakes traded for F-1 spindles/brakes
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2021
  2. I have used Round back spidles with F-1 brakes on model A axles. I have also adapted the F1 brakes to the model A spindles and gone from there. if it were me I would knock the F3 spindles off the axle and the model A spindles off the a axle and do a comparison. Then go from there.

    There is no doubt someone else who has an answer for you though.
     
    Stogy and Nailhead A-V8 like this.
  3. Nailhead A-V8
    Joined: Jun 11, 2012
    Posts: 1,343

    Nailhead A-V8
    Member

    I do (sort of) have access to these 12" drums/wheels (theyre on my landlords trailer lol) the main problem is the f1 plates are nearly flat while the early plates have that large recess would I be better off cutting out the recess and welding into the centre of the f1 plate? or if I welded up the stock holes and tried to attach the f-3 internals to the '37-9 backing plates? it would resolve the hub issue and give me those wide 5 wheels but might be more engineering than I can handle
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: May 26, 2015
    Stogy likes this.
  4. patmanta
    Joined: May 10, 2011
    Posts: 3,872

    patmanta
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Woburn, MA
    1. MASSACHUSETTS HAMB

    Those are 39-48 plates with wide five drums/hubs (37-39). They will not work with the F3 spindles easily. Buy the trailer off your landlord and use the spindles/brakes/wheels off it instead.

    Getting into brake gut-swapping may be getting ahead of yourself at this stage, but I think there are some tech articles floating around on these kinds of upgrades.
     
    Stogy and Nailhead A-V8 like this.

  5. Hell how did I miss this? If you don't buy the trailer swap him axles. Those spindles will go right on your A axle with stock king pins. With those desirable spindles ( round backs) the sky is the limit for brakes. There are all kind of options for them.

    The wide fives are cool and whatever rear you use wide fives can be adopted to it, even if you use a 9" Ford the roundy round guys have an answer for you. ;)
     
  6. Nailhead A-V8
    Joined: Jun 11, 2012
    Posts: 1,343

    Nailhead A-V8
    Member

    Thanks guys I sorta thought that too that axle has a bit more drop to it as well except it has been welded to and now I have no front brakes..... also those spindles are welded to the axle and the steering arms are cut off
     
    Outback and Stogy like this.
  7. Nailhead A-V8
    Joined: Jun 11, 2012
    Posts: 1,343

    Nailhead A-V8
    Member

    hmm speedway is showing a 12"x 2" drum but what hubs (that are easy to find) can I use? maybe the 37-9 axle is a bit too wide especially for a T I probably cant talk him out of the trailer hes an old farmer lol so im stuck looking for F1 hubs (everyone wants the complete 11 inch units w hubs)
    I have a rough start on both an A coupester and a T bucket body neither have any inner structure Im looking for info on how others have dealt with this especially the T is all wood and im even less of a carpenter lol
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2015
    Stogy likes this.
  8. Bolt on steering arms and careful clean up of the welds will save both the axle and the spindles. I got a tube axle ('37-40 after market) and a set of round back spindles and my round backs have bolt on steering arms. I know that you can get them new.
     
  9. patmanta
    Joined: May 10, 2011
    Posts: 3,872

    patmanta
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Woburn, MA
    1. MASSACHUSETTS HAMB

    You will probably be on the road a lot sooner going with the T body. There is A LOT of structure missing from the roadster. With the T, you just need to make a relatively simple box out of tubing to replace the missing wood. You'll learn a ton by building the T that you can carry on to the roadster (your second build).
     
    Outback, Stogy, brEad and 1 other person like this.
  10. Nailhead A-V8
    Joined: Jun 11, 2012
    Posts: 1,343

    Nailhead A-V8
    Member

    porknbeanr I guess alot of people do use the bolt on steering arms but that still leaves me with lockheed front brakes the f3 brakes is bendix and would be easy to convert to self energizing does anyone know of a 5 lug hub that fits the f1 spindle like maybe later f100 or econoline?
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2015
    Stogy likes this.
  11. And now back to regular programming . . . I am using a pair or 1960 F-350 front spindles/brakes, wheels, etc. on my '29 AA axle (which I believe is the same as the car axle), and I had to bore the kingpin holes to fit the larger pins, then shim between the spindles and axle, and finally bend the axle slightly to get the right kingpin angle. I also need to heat and bend the steering arm up about 3 inches, or drop the axle 3 inches, but that will vary depending on where your pitman arm arcs.

    The advantage of the F-350 spindles is larger brake drums and for me, big 17.5 x 8.00 wheels and tires. I'm going for the big truck look.
     
    Stogy, Nailhead A-V8 and patmanta like this.
  12. Nailhead A-V8
    Joined: Jun 11, 2012
    Posts: 1,343

    Nailhead A-V8
    Member

    Thanks osage orange I appreciate the on topic reply I had sort of thought maybe cutting the drum edge and hub off of the wide 5 with some machining and drilling out the eight lug holes and bolt them to the f3 hub on the drum? I don't know just a thought.....
     
  13. patmanta
    Joined: May 10, 2011
    Posts: 3,872

    patmanta
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Woburn, MA
    1. MASSACHUSETTS HAMB

    Don't do this on your first rodeo. File this away for consideration some other time. No need to re-invent the wheel here ;)
     
  14. patmanta
    Joined: May 10, 2011
    Posts: 3,872

    patmanta
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Woburn, MA
    1. MASSACHUSETTS HAMB

    Also, what happened to the pics you posted of the bodies? My reply is all hangin out there alone sounding like a crazyperson now!
     
    Stogy likes this.
  15. Those old brakes get converted to bendix all the time. You use self energizing brakes from a Lincoln. the parts are available new.

    You can use the F1/3 backing plates with the early spindles as well as the later model hubs. Why reinvent the wheel here. Use the early hubs that already work with the axle you want to use and adapt the later brakes to it. F-1 hubs are 5 bolt by the way, the f3 is a big truck and doesn't use 5 lug wheels but the f1 did.
     
    Stogy, Nailhead A-V8 and patmanta like this.
  16. Nailhead A-V8
    Joined: Jun 11, 2012
    Posts: 1,343

    Nailhead A-V8
    Member

    Thanks porknbeaner money constraints and even just finding old ford parts mean i m stuck with the f1-3 spindle F1 bp are 11 f3 are 12
     
  17. patmanta
    Joined: May 10, 2011
    Posts: 3,872

    patmanta
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Woburn, MA
    1. MASSACHUSETTS HAMB

    F1 - F3 spindles are good for F1 - F3 hubs. This is fine if you're planning to run F1 or F3 brakes, not fine if otherwise. The bolt pattern on the back of the spindle / backing plate may be the same, but the inner bearing area is larger on the spindle.

    That said, I think the F2 is 12" and 5 on 5.5" pattern. If you can get a set of F2 hubs, you can probably buy fresh drums for them. What I do not know is if F1 and F2 share the same hub or not. As far as parts availability goes, I'd try to trade or sell the F3 stuff to someone who wants it and get a complete set of F1 brakes.

    We really need to see pictures of all the stuff you've got also.
     
    Stogy, brEad and Nailhead A-V8 like this.
  18. Buick drums are 12" as are Lincoln drums. I use the 90 fin Buick drums they are cheaper then the 45 fin drums that the cool guys have to have. LOL

    You have a lot of ways to go with what you already have. If you decide to go with the f3 stuff just redrill the hubs and drums to match whatever wheels you are using. 5 on 5 is the most popular with hot rodders and allows you to use old ford wheels. I like the more common later model 5 on 4.5 or 5 on 4.75 but that is just the direction I usually go in.
     
  19. Nailhead A-V8
    Joined: Jun 11, 2012
    Posts: 1,343

    Nailhead A-V8
    Member

    Thanks again guys 3 heads are better than 1 lol...... Patmanta the F2 is 3/4 t as well so 8 lug too....hmm sell it and buy new? unfortunately there isn't much market for F3 stuff whereas the F1 stuff isn't easy to find I comb the local papers and craigslist constanly and never find stuff like: springs, juice brake parts, wishbones etc. been looking for ages its taken 10 yrs (and wasn't as cheap as youd think to look at it) just to get the junk I have.... too bad i'm stuck on traditional rods.... plus I kinda like the idea of 12" bendix brakes if possible I'll try to find a solo pair of f1 hubs it would make life easier because youre right the inner bearing is larger than the older hubs making an older hub swap not work and because the other alternative...... porknbeaners suggestion would mean not only welding up and drilling the hubs and drums but the centre register is too large as well so i'd have to get the hub register milled down and weld a spacer on the drum.....food for thought though for sure heh heh i'm going to ask the landlord about the wide 5 stuff but I bet he'll just laugh and scratch his head when I tell him I want to take a perfectly good trailer apart lol
     
  20. Nailhead A-V8
    Joined: Jun 11, 2012
    Posts: 1,343

    Nailhead A-V8
    Member

    Also steering....I have the f3 column and box (same as F1) although severely worn my thought was that I could just shorten up the F3 linkages and bolt everything straight up but this is only supposition anyone ever do that with an A axle? I heard you have to use a model A collar to mount it?.....by the way osage orange I had a look at the AA axles and they are thicker than A cool looking thick wishbones too would be neat if I was doing the truck look.....if my idea doesn't work there is a model A guy in the area he says theres a local guy who mills out the stock A steering boxes for a bearing then I could use the A linkages (if they work with F1 steering arms) any thoughts anybody?
     
  21. patmanta
    Joined: May 10, 2011
    Posts: 3,872

    patmanta
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Woburn, MA
    1. MASSACHUSETTS HAMB

    Keep the F3 steering, F1 to F3 are the same box as I recall. F4 up is similar but bigger and more suited for cowl steering. That's a score. You can get rebuild kits but they tend to be expensive and not much if any savings over having one rebuilt.

    Unless you want to go with the Buick drum conversion, I really think you need to either go with 11" F1 brakes or get 37-48 spindles and use either 39 up Ford 12" or the repop Lincoln brakes, for simplicity sake. If you drive yourself nuts trying to make this stuff work now, you're not going to get much building done anytime soon.

    I poked around your local CL and there's some parts out there, so keep at it. I have a lot of success finding parts I wouldn't otherwise find by using the search term "rat" since that seems to be the new "32" or "Model T" for folks who don't really know what they've got.
     
    Nailhead A-V8 likes this.
  22. We ship stuff all the time just look around our classifieds. if you are not sure about someone look at his followers (friends list?) find someone who you are comfortable with and drop them a note. asking about someone you don't know isn't offensive in the least.

    Rebuild the F3 box, use the same pitman arm and a drag link that connects it to whatever steering arms you got.

    yes you'll have to shorten the shaft and you can use whatever collar you got that will work. all it does is hold it to the floor. Colum drops are easy to come by and almost any of them can be made to work as well. I have used one of everything over the years, I like piston rods when I don't have anything else.

    Look at my signature, it took me less then a day on that axle.
     
    Stogy, Nailhead A-V8 and patmanta like this.
  23. Nailhead A-V8
    Joined: Jun 11, 2012
    Posts: 1,343

    Nailhead A-V8
    Member

    Thanks I really appreciate the moral support and advice and having some like minded people to bounce things off of....youre right I don't want to end up blowing my brains out over this and shelving the project but at the same time I don't want to set my sights on some "unobtainium" parts like buick drums (the last time I saw a buick getting parted was 2 yrs ago and the drums were $150 ea. used) and put it on the back burner while I wait either......So the F1/3 column has to be shortened? how do people generally do this? cut and reweld the spline part back on or cut and have it resplined by a machine shop? I thought this was the bonus of the reworked roller bearing model A box (+ the box and column are $20. and the conversion $80) I'm guessing the reason you guys are saying this is that the F1 has a better ratio? I had a look under the trailer again and im really concerned that the welding on the axle has ruined the bearing surface of the spindle what if I go through alot of time trouble and expense and end up w a bunch of junk?
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2015
    Stogy likes this.
  24. patmanta
    Joined: May 10, 2011
    Posts: 3,872

    patmanta
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Woburn, MA
    1. MASSACHUSETTS HAMB

    Shortening the column is also not a consideration to focus on at this stage. You don't have it mocked up or know what body you're even gonna use so you have no way of knowing what you'll need for column length yet.

    Focus on getting the big stuff figured out before you drill down to these things.
     
    Stogy and Nailhead A-V8 like this.
  25. Nailhead A-V8
    Joined: Jun 11, 2012
    Posts: 1,343

    Nailhead A-V8
    Member

    coupester1.png coupester.png coupster.png coupster2a.png coupster3a.png coupster1.png ok the flatty is coming out of the truck......and I have decided on the model A shell and crossed the wide 5's and the F2 12" brakes off the list and managed to find the 11" F1 5 lug drums/ spindles so .......has anyone put F1 spindles on a model A axle?
    I'd like to find out which king pins/bushings etc are used -thanks
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2021
    Stogy and patmanta like this.
  26. Kingpin set 21A3111B (or equivalent) for '42-'48 car and pick-up square-back spindles (which is the same set as '48-'52 F-1,F-2, F-3 pick-up).
     
  27. Nailhead A-V8
    Joined: Jun 11, 2012
    Posts: 1,343

    Nailhead A-V8
    Member

    Thanks Rich I've tried searching the info up several times and never seem to get a definitive answer some people have said the axle needs needs to be hogged out and some have said everything thing is the same use the model A king pins..... I think were on different time zones but I really appreciate your help and experience. Do I have to notch them in a different spot for the A axle? I know where I could buy a set of model A kingpins (used only for mock ups) and the king pins that are on the F1 spindles are relatively new can I use either of them?
     
    Stogy likes this.
  28. dumprat
    Joined: Dec 27, 2006
    Posts: 3,479

    dumprat
    Member
    from b.c.

    There are hundreds of local rodders in the lower mainland. Find one that doesn't love mustang II front axles and look at his car. Most of what you are asking is quite easy.

    The old car center has all the parts you need to do what you are attempting for fair prices.
     
    Nailhead A-V8 likes this.
  29. dumprat
    Joined: Dec 27, 2006
    Posts: 3,479

    dumprat
    Member
    from b.c.

    But to answer he questions no you can't use the F1 spindles. Different king pin angle. Yes you can use the model a or wide five spindles. Bolt on arms are everywhere.
     
    Nailhead A-V8 likes this.
  30. Nailhead A-V8
    Joined: Jun 11, 2012
    Posts: 1,343

    Nailhead A-V8
    Member

    Dumprat there are a few guys on here who have experience with this swap apparently out of several sets of F1 spindles there may be one set with a slightly different inclination so although not set in stone there seems to be enough people who've made this set up work for me to give it a shot.........Thanks for the tips i'm new to this whole thing the closest thing I have to a "car buddy" is a guy I know whose into 4x4s lol I think those guys with the real old time rods arent getting out much these days I never see any.... last car show I went to the ratio was pretty low the few 30's cars were mostly fancy street rods.....Yes i've heard of them I will be talking to those guys about parts inevitably
     

Share This Page

Register now to get rid of these ads!

Archive

Copyright © 1995-2021 The Jalopy Journal: Steal our stuff, we'll kick your teeth in. Terms of Service. Privacy Policy.

Atomic Industry
Forum software by XenForo™ ©2010-2014 XenForo Ltd.