Hot Rods Model A identification question

I purchased a 1930 Model A 5 window coupe. My understanding is that the VIN # is on the engine block. The number on the block does not match the title and I suspect it might be a 1932 engine because it has an 18 at the start of the number and a star before and after the number. It also has an Otwell Health Heater.
Also there is an unreadable tag on the passenger side firewall . Does anyone know what it is or what its supposed to say?

 

the firewall tag just lists the patent numbers, it's nothing to do with a vehicle ID number of any kind.

 

The tag is a patent plate, it shows patents pertaining to the automobile.

 

It is a Model A data plate. They are generic to all Model A's.

 

do you know about the number stamped on the frame, under the cowl, driver side?

 

You’ll have to pull the body, the engines were all built at Rouge plant and #stamped on it and shipped to the assembly plants, when the engine was set in the chassis, that same # was stamped on the frame below under the cowl.

 

I have read some conflicting information about other possible locations for ID numbers. Seems to be variations as to what was done and when at different manufacturing locations. I plan to resell the car body and chassis, so I don't want to get into removing a lot of rusty bolts. Does the Otwell Health Heater signify that the engine is from a later model?

 

that looks like a model"A" engine to me, a `32 4cyl would have a fuel pump on that side of the engine block.
A `32 v8 engine would have a # 18-*** on the transmission, nothing stamped on the engine block.
That heater is an add on accessory

 

correct ^^^ note the standard heater hole method....chizel or drill a bunch of holes and hammer it out !

 

There were only two locations that the numbers were stamped. The frame number was stamped on the top of the frame rail located under the driver side cowl and on the engine. Over time the engine could have been replaced with a re-manufactured engine and does not match the frame number.

 

The firewall looks to be 30 or early 31 as it does not have the indent for the fuel bowl that later 31 firewalls had.
This being the firewall on the Vicky I had.

The extra tag on it was the body number tag but wasn't the vehicle serial number.

That Otwell Health heater manifold might be something that a restorer would like.

 

This is a late 31 (after April of 31) Model A firewall with the indent.

 

There are a number of small details that could further distinguish the year of the car. 1930 coupes up to a certain month have thinner wood around the rear window while in 31 they went to thicker would to accommodate roll down rear window whether the car had the roll down feature or not. Ford, Murray and Briggs all built coupe bodies, they use different rivets and d-nuts which identify them. Briggs bodies have a plate below the patent plate on the firewall. But as stated the serial number was only in two places.

 

Almost everything is available on the Internet, including my middle name. Try this table to identify your engine:
https://www.soonermodela.org/modelaenginenumbers.htm

BTW-all production Model A coupes were 5 window. There were a couple of three window prototypes made, you can see pictures of them here: http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/protothreewindow.htm

 

Hmmm...if you were going to resell the body and chassis to me, I'd want to see that number and a matching title....

 

Agree, if it’s marketed “with title” then it needs to be the same as the frame or it’s just a body and chassis with a piece of paper.
Never pulled an A body, but if nuts are accessible with an impact gun, snap them off and make quick work of it and see if there’s a number.
Couldn’t be that many bolts to replace.

 

Can you post a picture of the engine number. All Model A engines had a star before and after the number. As for the 18, it should not be there. After February 18th, 1931 Ford changed the style of the 1, 6 and 9 numbers. If you provide the number, I can tell you the production date of the motor regardless if it's correct or not. The only exact way of identifying your frame is to lift the body.

 

What others have said. Only way to verify the number on the title is to lift the body. I've passed on several Model A's where the number on the title didn't match the engine number and the seller was unwilling to lift the body to allow verification of the number on the frame. When I was 15 I removed the body from my '31 Model A coupe. I only had hand tools and a pulley hung from the rafters and a hand crank boat winch so it couldn't have been too difficult as I recall. But that was over 50 years ago. One possibility about the number on the block is that is a Diamond replacement block that came from Ford without numbers and someone stamped the numbers in themselves.

 

If your VIN doesn't match your title, I hope you didn't pay too much. Titling can be weird at best. PA issued me a new VIN when I titled my A as a "Streetrod". Of course, I had a clear title to the car before that started. You might want to look into how to get a clear title in your state.

 

I plan to sell the body and chassis for "Parts" with a Bill of Sale. Its kind of a funny thing, this hobby we have chosen. Many people want an A coupe body, but they replace the engine with a later model and quite often, they replace the frame with one for a 32 Ford that is actually not a real OEM one. At that point, they have a body with no factory VIN and a chassis and engine also without the original factory VIN.
On the other hand though, someone wanting to restore one or build a period perfect Hot Rod would probably want the matching numbers. It kind of depends on what someone is looking for. In my case, I already know that the engine in the car does not match the paperwork. Don't know if the frame matches or not. Here is a picture of the number that is stamped on the engine. My understanding is that ALL 1932 engines came with an 18 at the beginning of the engine number......and ALL had a "star" stamped before and after the number. I "think" I saw something somewhere saying that earlier motors may have had the stars as well. Again, my research on this is pretty spotty, so I don't know what I have enginewise.
I believe the body is a 30 model though that may have been manufactured in May. The firewall only has the one data plate and doesn't have the indentation some later ones have.(Tks Mr48Chev) If you look closely at the picture, you can see the stars at each end of the number.

 

The 18 you’re referring to isn’t related to 1932 model 18, it is the numbering showing 18th million 97944 engine built. So the engine was built in July 1929.

 

1 million 897 thousand 944th engine built.

 

Agreed, not a B, but rather a retrofitted '29 engine. No provision for a fuel pump, and a 4-bolt water pump (B would have 3).

 

So its just co-incidental that this engine has an "18" in its serial number? And all Model A engines had the "Stars" even before the 32 and later engines ? Am I getting that right?

 

Correct. Model A's had the star and this IS a July 1929 engine.

 

The difference in value between a body and chassis with a Bill of Sale and with a Title would likely be great enough to cover your time in disassembling it to see what you really have.

 

5window is spot on.

 

I was too quick typing, as others noted it’s the 1 millionth 800 thousand not 18 millionth

 

You have to remember that there were over 5 million Model A Fords built. It looks like your '30/'31 needed an engine at one time and a July '29 engine was installed. Your situation is not uncommon. I have owned several Model A's and a couple had the wrong engine for the model year. The '29 Business Coupe that I have now did not have the correct engine number, but it does now. Back in the '40s, you could go to any junkyard in the U.S. and pick up a decent running Model A for $20. You need to lift the body, if the frame number matches your title, then your go to go. If it does not match you are in a bind.

 

Those numbers do not look like the original Ford stampings.