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Technical Model A frame with 41 ford axle?

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by 1950mercsled, Jul 14, 2018.

  1. 1950mercsled
    Joined: Oct 10, 2013
    Posts: 53

    1950mercsled
    Member
    from oregon

    Hey I'm collecting parts for a flathead ford, 39 trans, 41 bango rear, juice break..... traditional hot rod. I am interested in knowing if anyone has ever used a 41 ford front axle in an A frame? Or the reasons for not using one? Thanks for the help
     
  2. I'm sure that someone has tried every combination of ford axle at one point.

    I personally don't like anything later than 36 front axle for 3 reasons. First...I think they look better. Second is more distance between the king pin and perch pin holes in the earlier axles and this allows for more drop. Third is related to that as well, because the perch and king pin are closer you're more likely to hit the tires on the wishbone when split.

    That being said, that is some picky elitist bullshit i just spewed and if you've got a 41 front axle already, you might as well give it a try and see if it works for you.
     
    Duellym, bct, kidcampbell71 and 4 others like this.
  3. rusty rocket
    Joined: Oct 30, 2011
    Posts: 2,800

    rusty rocket
    Member

    I dont know why it shouldnt work. My pops used a 41 rear end in his AV8.
    Are you running a spring over the axle?
     
  4. You mean like this?
    02-15-12 002.jpg With a Flat Head you don't really need to split the bones so turning isn't a big issue and if you want to, do it just do it behind the edge of the Tire. Plenty of room for that.
    20170209_105404.jpg Lot's of ways to skin this Cat and several things to take into consideration prior to just sticking it in there. These are just Roller tires 29" tall fronts and 31" in the rear. This Frame has no Kick or Z at all. Once the fenders are on and correct tires front and rear the Ground profile will fall into place.
    20151023_094028.jpg
    Good Luck on your Quest.
    The Wizzard
     
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  5. The points mentioned in the "picky elitist bullshit" that Hitchhiker spewed is the truth; use of the '41 axle will call for other adjustments or a completely different approach, as in Pist-n-Broke's spring forward set-up. Spring, turning radius, aesthetics, axle drop, etc.

    The '41 spindles* and bones would work good with an '36 and earlier axle; and not like they are rare, hard to find, or excessively expensive.

    That said, if you look around, you will see some cars with spring over dropped axles and a few spring forward dropped and stock later axles that were done back in the day.

    * If you go with cross steer; be sure to taper the eye on the right spindle from the bottom, so you don't get surprised later.
     
    Tim likes this.
  6. Tim
    Joined: Mar 2, 2001
    Posts: 8,251

    Tim
    Member
    from Raytown Mo

    Honestly if you wanted to be an elitist asshole you’d use the the spring in front.

    Thumbing threw some of the mongumery books there are a ton of spring in front cars. It’s clearly traditional and the majority of “barn find survivors” that I see are set up this way.

    The issues most people have have already been stated but they are sort of minor or easy to work around.

    1: the mention of less drop being available if you were to drop a stock axle. Well a later axle already has a few inches of drop from the factory to so get the standard “hot rod 4 inch dropped axle” you really only need two and some change

    2: the wish bone mounts closer to the king pin, this really only seems to be an issue if you split the bones.

    How ever! Given that they are longer than early wishbones the likely good that you actually need to split them and brings them all the way out to the frame rails is less.

    Also the later wishbones have a nice drop in them so even if the car is low the wishbone should be able to tuck u dear the frame easier than an earlier wish bone.

    That whole conversation is usually about a smaller turn radius because with the bones brought out to the frame your tire will hit them a lot sooner than an earlier set up IF both are split and mounted to the frame.

    Un split or split but having the ends still pretty close to the center of the car you should have plenty of tire/turn room.

    3: width. Yup they are a little wider than an earlier axle.

    However it’s more common to run an even wider than 41 46-8 banjo in an early car than an A axle so you’d just end up with a front axle that’s as wide as your back axle.

    If the car is low the wider rear axle helps clear the tires past the body and honestly up front i never notice the extra width as a tell sign that it’s a later axle.

    Do a search for the survivor model A coupe “snewpy” or some spelling like that. It has all 46 running gear and suspension and honestly most of the guts too.
     
    Denns1989 and don colaps like this.
  7. Tim
    Joined: Mar 2, 2001
    Posts: 8,251

    Tim
    Member
    from Raytown Mo

  8. 41rodderz
    Joined: Sep 27, 2010
    Posts: 621

    41rodderz
    Member
    from Oregon

    Profile looks solid now :cool:
     
    Pist-n-Broke likes this.
  9. Quote; "That whole conversation is usually about a smaller turn radius because with the bones brought out to the frame your tire will hit them a lot sooner than an earlier set up IF both are split and mounted to the frame." end of Quote.

    This tire hitting issue has a cure if you need to split the bones for pan clearance. Don't make it a strait shot from the perch bolt to the frame anchor mount. Put a Radius in the Bone right behind where the Tire would make contact. This will also eliminate the angle change at the shackle hanger of the perch.
    End of issue.
    The Wizzard
     
  10. Stan Back
    Joined: Mar 9, 2007
    Posts: 363

    Stan Back
    Member
    from California

    "41 bango rear, juice break"

    . . . like in "me and my honey got a little funky – I gave her a 41 bango rear and then we stopped for an orange juice break."

    (It's banjo and juice brakes.)
     
  11. 1946caddy
    Joined: Dec 18, 2013
    Posts: 1,042

    1946caddy
    Member
    from washington

    The post asked about using a 41 axle in a model A frame and didn't specify the suspension he planned on using. If he mounts the spring on top of the axle, he will need a spring that is 2" longer because of the longer spacing of the spring perches. Posie makes a spring for this purpose. If he decides to drop the axle, have it stretched to maintain the 48 1/2" width which allows the tire to fit better under the fender on a fender car and maintain the spacing between the king pin and perch. The longer spring should allow a little better ride. I'm using split A bones and cross steer on a 37 axle (same as 41) with a 5" wheel and narrow tire and don't see any problem with hitting the bones with the tire.
    WP_20160827_12_34_08_Pro.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2018
  12. 1950mercsled
    Joined: Oct 10, 2013
    Posts: 53

    1950mercsled
    Member
    from oregon

    Thanks Stan. I do know how to spell just wasn't paying attention when I was typing.
    This has all been great information. The more the better. Anyone else have a preference? Seems like the 36 front axle is the most popular.
     
  13. 1950mercsled
    Joined: Oct 10, 2013
    Posts: 53

    1950mercsled
    Member
    from oregon

    Pist-N-Broke do you have the link to that roadster or more pictures of the front suspension? Thank you
     
  14. Well I still have the Roadster, sadly it's still not done. This has been a total hands on by myself so I think I can answer anything you need. Yes it is a Stock Model A wheel base not shorter due to spring off set both front and rear. It runs a stock 1940 Ford cross steer box. You can see it hiding behind the Header in one of the Photos above. The mount plate for it is not yet in the frame here.
    Test fit #1 004.jpg
    The Wizzard
     
    RICH B and akoutlaw like this.
  15. I'm running a spring in front set up in my '30 It did not limit the turning radius too much. as you may be able to see, I bent the forged end in front of the axle to get the spring perch in the right place. Remember that with the spring in front, this will reduce the wheel base some, this also worked out for me as I needed some room to get the Y block between the firewall and radiator. I stretched the frame and this put the wheel base close to where it was. 11.JPG DSC05600.JPG 161914777_KiDFdf5W_JalopRama15D7500803x4.jpg
     
    jetnow1, RICH B and bct like this.
  16. 1950mercsled
    Joined: Oct 10, 2013
    Posts: 53

    1950mercsled
    Member
    from oregon

    Nice Tudor 46international! What year of axle are you running?
     
  17. Desmodromic
    Joined: Sep 25, 2010
    Posts: 69

    Desmodromic
    Member

    Don't understand how you came up with stock Model A wheelbase. Front axle would be a few inches behind the original spring location, rear axle would be a several inches
    ahead, so wheelbase would be shorter by the sum of these two. Did you move front and rear crossmembers, or lengthen frame?
     
    Pist-n-Broke likes this.
  18. Cliff Ramsdell
    Joined: Dec 27, 2004
    Posts: 591

    Cliff Ramsdell
    Member

    I ran this setup for years in my Model A. The chassis came this way and it worked ok.

    I rebuilt everything a couple of years ago and changed to a spring over setup but with unsplit wishbones and a Flathead I never had any issues.

    Cliff Ramsdell
    DD831298-F81C-4E30-9E2F-204DD84F04CE.jpeg
    37E354A1-D798-4481-B225-57801BE824DB.jpeg
     
  19. Well Desmodromic, In theory and as just changing parts out your Math is correct. Were I just working with One Factory frame I would need to do something to keep stock wheel base. In post #14 the Rails look to be all one piece as they should. What you don't see is any sign of what really happened. This Chassis was built out of all Loose pieces from chassis work from over many years and many Customer cars. I don't throw anything away just in case. This is the end result of some of those parts. Actually this Roadster is the Total sum of someone's discarded parts. Here is a photo of how the Chassis started it's New life.
    Nov 2011 x 3 001.jpg You being an Engineer I bet it's easy now to see how the Puzzle was built. Yes, when I spliced the two rail sections together I added length to move front and rear crossmembers the needed amount to put both Axles back to Henry's Factory number.
    The Wizzard
     

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