The Jalopy Journal
Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Greg Stokes, Nov 1, 2005.
This is Charlie Yapp's site...
This is hilarious!! Almost every engine going out of my shop has an aluminum head on it and I have yet to have a warpage issue. Oh, and who started the aluminum electrolosis rumor? Use the cathode if you are worried but just how many alum heads are on iron blocks from an O.E. appliation? I guess Detroit is issueing recalls on all of those Escorts, Toyotas, Hondas, and etc.
Again, this is R.I.T.F. hilarious. You got to understand that Charlie Yapp is only a writer. Charlie has been able to put himself around some people (banger builders) that KNEW what they were talking about. Charlie interviewed them and wrote what seemed logical to Charlie (whether it was true or not). To my knowledge, Charlie only built the one car and then sold it. He is a good Historian, and sells a good magazine to the Rookie, but he personally has never done the ongoing R&D on bangers like Jim Brierley, the Dan Price, and the likes. Let me just suffice it to say that myself, the two banger builders I just mentioned, and a slew of others that have been around the block can certify that we have and drive bangers on babbit with CR's much greater than 7:1!
I think that would be a great combination for you. Either head oughtta make your engine have more horsepower than stock --but still allow others to have more horsepower than you. Naturally I am just having "fun" with you but you really need to find a personal mentor that has walked the walk first before he starts talking the talk. Someone has filled your head with a lot of bad information IMO.
Oh, and one last bit of "funnin" with you. My Wife's Speedster has a Cyclone Head on it because I did not want her to make enough horsepower to beat me.
Like some others, I think the Lion head has the plug in the wrong place. I'm a fan of Winfield if you are going with a flathead. They are available from Specialty Ford Parts in Rosemead, CA. They also have a selection of manifolds. 626-288-2121
"but you really need to find a personal mentor that has walked the walk first before he starts talking the talk. Someone has filled your head with a lot of bad information IMO"
I don't think I'm doing too bad for a 29 year old, and Charlie may not be THE authority, but if he doesn't know what he's talking about, then why hasn't someone who knows much better stepped up and shut down his publication which is not from his experiences, but is an input from those who Have experience, sharing their wisdom with the general public. One of the fellows that told me alot of this information happens to be a record holder running a modified model a banger....Mr. "Mor-drop" himself. I read his notes he shared with me at a show last year, and I'm pretty sure that He knows what he's talking about. You may have yet to see any warpage issues come out of your experience with aluminum heads, but, like Mr. Yapp's advice, yours could be viewed the same. Just because you haven't experienced it, doesn't mean that it's not a fact. I really doubt too that Mr. Yapp was only trying to sell me on his stuff since he recommended another head for my application, not his. I never said Mr. Yapp or myself knows it all about bangers, only that he and I spoke and that's what I was told. If there's a better model a banger speed publication out there, or if you put out a better one, I'd love to hear about it. Now, if it is just a rumor about aluminum warpage, do you have some facts to back up your claim, cause if that's all nonsense and every article written in hotrod magazines is wrong that I've read, I'm all ears 'cause that's great news! Fill us in with your experience and wisdom please, since I have been led down the brimrose path regarding bangers. Let us know why the fellows I mentioned above are wrong and why you're right. If these guys are all full of it, the model A community should know-
The rant on CY up above points to the great failing of the "Secrets" magazine--lack of a real tech editor. They print information and anecdotes and bits of fragmentary history, but with no criticism, analysis, or testing--you have to be knowledgable enough to do your own guessing at the best way. This part of the hobby is very fragmented, with much interesting new and repro equipment being made in small lots everywhere and little solid tech info or testing available, so THINK when reading the magazines!!
Also, separate issue, sometimes they fail to notice that something really neat has been mentioned, and they let it go by...like the guy reminiscing about converting to insert bearings homemade from aluminum sheet! There is a LOT of info still out there in the heads of 85 year old geezer sprintcar people who have noway of spreading what they know of the gospel!
Also, separate issue, sometimes they fail to notice that something really neat has been mentioned, and they let it go by...like the guy reminiscing about converting to insert bearings homemade from aluminum sheet! There is a LOT of info still out there in the heads of 85 year old geezer sprintcar people who have noway of spreading what they know of the gospel![/QUOTE]
This is so true! When Mor Drop walked up to us and told us "I think that's one of my axles", we were like, what?!?, who's this guy? low and behold, The Mor Drop himself, He must be at least in his 80's. It was funny though, he had a backpack FULL of binders which were stuffed with tech info, articles, pictures, etc. from all of his years of experience. He was eager to teach and share with anyone who would listen. That was hands down one of the neatest conversations I've ever had with any hotrod pioneer or person for that matter. I got one hell of a crash course in Model A banger hop up from someone very instrumental in our hotrod history.....Those old guys sure do have some secrets. If you just ask, sometimes you hear stuff that'll blow your mind.
Yeah but you are now seeing what the fallacy in all of this is/was.
Let's imagine that you are a writer and a photographer, and so you cohearse some of these 85 year old racers into telling you all of their secrets about their bangers. Matter of fact you tell them that you will help them form a society for all the old timers to gather and swap their tales and secrets. Since you really do not know what is right and wrong in what they tell you about bangers, all you can do is interview as many people that ARE knowledgable and transcribe their story. They are excited and you are now "one of them". However ... egos step in and the next thing you know, you have authored a story and printed it giving most of the credit to yourself for the information. After a few times of this, the 85 year old knowledgable banger guys start getting a bit upset with the way the information is treated.
Next imagine that all of this comes to a head and you as an author take all of the money from paying "members" and go off and reform your own magazine leaving everyone else upset. All of a sudden some people start getting an attitude about "HELL" and where this knowledge can be stuck! Then these 85 year olds have the attitude of what's in it for them? How would you feel??
Therefore my friend, while Mr. Yapp has been good for the Industry , but IMO (and many others) he has been bad for the Hobby!
And at the ripe old age of 29, I guess I must ask, just what have you done to "deserve" the gift of this information? For me personally, I have probably spent $30K+ of hard earned dollars over the past 10 years learning by trial & error --PLUS I have made friends with the very people you read about in Secrets. In life one needs to remember some ethics ... People will give you almost anything you want --as long as you don't take it from them ...or mis-use it for your own glory.
Oh I'm liking this!!
Heated banger debate!
it's obvious that you have some personal issues with Mr. Yapp. I don't have anything to do with the quarrel or hard feelings you have mentioned and it's sad to hear that may be what has happened. I don't know, and I really don't care either. I know that I'm in this for the love of it. As far as what I have done to "deserve" this gift of information.......I guess I never thought of whether I deserve it or not. Is there some sort of right of passage that I have to go through to "deserve" this information, or to deserve to have a conversation with an old guy in the know? Is it enough that I love what I do in the garage, that I want to preserve this heritage of ours and of MINE. My grandfather has been into this since after he got back from WW2, then my old man grew me up around it and is still at it, and I've been into it or around it some way or another my whole life albeit short compared to yours as it sounds. Sorry that Charlie has pissed in alot of peoples cereal, but he hasn't pissed in mine. I give everyone a chance and it's too bad if what has been stated regarding Charlie is true. It rings loud and clear that you have ill feelings toward that whole deal...well, I don't because I'm not apart of that. I don't know if it's true or not, and I don't really care about someone else's drama. Questioning whether I deserve it or not....Maybe I do, maybe I don't. I know that I respect the information given to me and I value my experiences and conversations with such guys when given the opportunity. Are you the authority on who deserves it and who don't? Easy to throw years on earth and the fact that you own a shop around. so what. Some of the best hotrod builders do it out of a garage and never get the bow downs. I run a pipeline and do accounting for a living, am one parent operation, have a tiny ass garage, and wrench when I can and love every minute of it. Hopefully I deserve it, I sure as hell work hard and have earned what is sitting in my garage, that I know. This board is so stupid sometimes. It's nuts that a guy can post advice or info that he was given, then get qouted and corrected for advice that wasn't even his......I'm just sharing what I've heard. Sorry to hear about the hot-rod version of "Broken Arrow" charlie yapp incident.
Interesting feedback on CY and Secrets. You imagine how hard it is for us down under to find some good info! We are learning though and really enjoying it!
Well don't quote me cause i don't know shit! lol
but if you want to hear my bad info, I'll share it with you so long as you give me some of your bad info.....lol
Only bought my 24 horse on Friday and look what I've walked into!
Kornbinder, could you do me a favour and PM me a measurement from front spring centre to the firewall on your car. I'm planning on running the A engine beneath the stock 27 hood and want to know how close it'll be in a stock T frame. It's freezing fog outside - it'll give me something to look forward to, building another car in the drive with the blood freezing on the outside of my knuckles...
Secrets is well worth having--I bought the whole $et and subscribe--but it's up to the reader to figure out which bits are the goodies! The amount of information, old, new, historical, and the prints of old articles and adds make it all worthwhile. Editing is scary--I sent in some comments on old Mallory distributors once, and saw my remarks garbled and applied to the wrong picture, but that sort of thing is perhaps inevitable in a small one-horse operation. I sent CY a big set of Mallory lessons on ignition a couple of years ago, and he carefully copied the set, returned my original in perfect shape, gave me credit on the piece he reprinted, and sent me a package of goodies! I couldn't ask for better treatment than that. Still, they need a real tech guru or perhaps an extended venue for comments on previous tech articles. Like most people associated with banger hopping nowadays, CY is a relative newcomer who needs some backing from some probably unfindable Gemsa-level oldtimers...or maybe just someone with a good grasp of engine theory and prctice. Most enthusiasts actually building these things are on maybe their first engines, with no comparative background other than the parts they happened to buy for that, and are engrossed in building entirely fanciful speedsters, rather than real rods or racers.
Thank you Bruce....I needed a hug
here is what the hand says:
LOL, thats funny.....
When I was running 7-1 comp on my Thomas, I had no problems with gaskets and it performed very well. When I decided to go racing with it I took the comp up to 10.5-1. I couldn't get it sealed no matter what I did, we had done considerable work to the combustion chambers and it was pulling very hard. I set the head up and ringed it for ss wire and solid copper gasket. This proved to be the ticket and we were able to get over 150 hp. I think the Thomas from Price is a very good head if used as provided.--TV
I thought you'd be around here somewhere....
Ya cant keep him down!
Ain't nothing worse than politics and religion for a group except...BANGERS!!
Or do they count as a religion?
It's not a religion...it's a spiritual experience brother.....(insence burning in background)
I think it's all just a bunch BULLSHIT, we all have a lot to learn form the old timers Mr Yapp included, I don't think there is any room for this kind of stuff. Lets just share everything we know and help each other out.--TV
MMMM...banger incense..."Indian Head" gasket shellac slowly frying...the side cover dripping oil on the header...
TV it is all just a bunch of bullshit.....it's like those assholes who go surfing and are being rude to everyone in the lineup....why are they out there? I'm out there to get away from those assholes and get some solitude. Angry hotrodders are no fun, and neither are angry surfers...
Farmer, man, you just ain't listening ...
Some of us spend vast amounts of time and dollars learning these tricks. I am not an authority but I guess my position is that most people that do know these "secrets" today are making a living (or earning a $$ revenue) from what they have spent their time and hard-earned dollars on. I guess I am an asshole in your eyes but what is the motive for these guys who have spent hours thinking about, then creating, and then correcting their mistakes in the pursuit to a better product just to give away their ideas?
Take an engine builder who has spent hours upon hours educating himself on a way he can install insert bearings in lieu of babbit. How about a cam grinder like Bill Stipe who has spent a tremendous amount of $$ building a test mule engine to run on his in-house dyno just to test his camshaft designs. There were other things he stumbled into during the process. He was able to network with others to speed up his learning curve but rest assured Bill did not come by his banger knowledge in a book or watching a video! It involved sweat equity.
What about people like Larry Brumfield who designed and re-designed a head. He built all of the prototypes out of his own pocket and never asked for a dime from anyone until it was ready to ship as a finished product. That takes guts to believe in yourself enough to know what you can build --and do it without using other people's money. Dan Price is another wonderfully intelligent man who will help you as far as you need to go. The man is brilliant but where is his motive for giving advise for free? Especially if he would give away his ideas to a someone who did not even give him credit for what he told. Rest assured that Dan has re-engineered his products to make them even better then when they were originally designed. People like Phil Andrews, Dick McKee, Dan Iandola, Mike Hart, Wes Cooper, Kong Jackson, Ron Kelley, and many other pioneers are/were all very helpful to a point however they want to see someone either earn, or compensate them for their trials. Nothing wrong with that because they are entitled to a reward.
I made a private comment to someone like this. If someone has a flat tire on their automobile, usually you do not mind pulling over and offering to help them change their tire. You are doing it as a courtesy, however if you stop to help and the guy hands you the jack and tire tool and tells you to change it while he goes and sits down under a tree in the shade, how does this make you feel?
Let's even take this one step closer to what I read earlier, if the guy is clueless about changing the tire so you stop and offer your help. You explain the method that works for you (and you are indeed knowledgable) but the guy refuses to do it your way, what is your attitude then? Because you are a nice guy I would imagine you will try to continue to be a help but if the guy is hearing your way and doing it his way, then you politely excuse yourself and move on. The sad thing was that if the guy would have given you the benefit of the doubt with his problem, his problem would have been fixed sooner, better, and with much less stress.
Boy, this banger stuff is way worse than politics!
I think Brent is making some pretty valid points there. My dream car to be built as my next project may run a banger. I wont be expecting any handouts, and I fully expect that a lot of the sweat invoved is gonna be mine.
Welcome to the world of bangers, no 2 people will tell you the samething.
A person just has to filter through all the info they can get their hands on and decide what may work for them.
I have heard it all before, Charlie did this, Joe stole that, Ron wants too much........ Blah Blah Blah. Just like the engine info, the BS needs a filter.
The Model A is a cantankerous old coot, sometimes you have to put up, when looking for info.
I would take anything said with a grain.
Every choice has it's advantages and disadvantages, you need to think about what drawbacks you want to put up with.
I have delt with all but 3 of the people Brent has mentioned, they have all been good to me and given good advice, Brent and Bruce have also helped me in the passed.
I went out on a limb, ground a 2 inch crank down to 1 1/2 mains and stroked the rod journals 1/4 and fit A conn rods in an A block. Many a expert will tell you not to do this, but it works for me, I have been leaving them all at every stoplight, for years with this engine, by the time I hit 40 they all catch up. Will the engine fail ? Yea it may, then I will try something else and form up my own Banger myths.
Apropos nothing in particular, I found some more dyno charts on mild engines, from the guy who makes the new cams:
Gotta say I like the FAST quarterly from Jim Brierley (4-port Riley) and his pals. A great read and I always look forward to getting each copy.
Thats interesting, I have one of those we built mine is 240"with a Riley head. Mines a giant killer to. I don't think you have to worry abought that crank.--TV
I just came across a stock cylinder head that has casting dimples in it and also in block lettering has "MADE IN USA". Does anyone have any info on this?
Separate names with a comma.