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Hot Rods Model A body on ‘32 chassis WITH FENDERS- Help!

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by RiffRaffRoadster, Dec 24, 2018.

  1. RiffRaffRoadster
    Joined: Dec 24, 2018
    Posts: 437

    RiffRaffRoadster
    Member

    No-he flew C-123s in Vietnam in the 310th Air Commando Squadron. He was stationed in Nha Trang.


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    Last edited: Jan 9, 2019
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  2. RiffRaffRoadster
    Joined: Dec 24, 2018
    Posts: 437

    RiffRaffRoadster
    Member

    I can check with the builders that have the car now (I have talked to them and they are on hold until Keith Tardel can look at the car). They have the steel slot wheels but I don’t know if they kept the old tires.


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  3. I firmly believe there were Tons of Model A body's just bolted on 32 Frames without addressing the firewall issue at all. It was the easiest way to build a V-8 Roadster there was at the time. Fenders were a Non issue, Model A roadsters were cheep as well as 32 4-door sedans. We were building real Hot Rods not Show Cars. Fit and finish were second to Heads and Intakes. Maybe even third place being Tires were a little costly.
     
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  4. Atwater Mike
    Joined: May 31, 2002
    Posts: 10,263

    Atwater Mike
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I've only been 'active' in the hot rod world since 1954. (there are still 'elders',)
    My first observations were of the cars I really lusted over, the 'real hot rods'.
    I went every week to the drags, at 'Little Bonneville', an old airport on King Road in San Jose...
    Very active clubs ran 'club cars' that most of their members had a hand in...they had club 'barns' then, if you were polite and knew someone (I made it a point to know everybody!) you could go to the barn after the meet and see the cars under construction
    I'm talking about a dozen Deuce framed highboys, some '32 Coupes & Roadsters; but MY favorites were the Model A roadsters on Deuce rails.
    Point being, I never saw a 'pinched' frame, the A bodies were 'narrow' at the cowling, '28-'29s moreso than the '30-'31 bodies. They left a 'shelf' about 1" wide from firewall cowl to outer rail, fading to flush with body about 5"...an 'attractive triangle'.
    The point was, (if you were paying attention) that body was earlier, fitted to the Deuce frame. Nicely fitted meant there was a wood filler on top of the rails, as the Deuce's curve didn't fit with the Model A's flat bottom. But that 'width' difference was 'proof' the car was a 'hybrid' hot rod, with hints of its identity.
    First one I saw with 'pinched rails' was in '69, Li'l John Buttera's '29 white roadster, no frame horns, everything too slick. Everybody that attended 'goodguise' events pinched their rails, if they were to be good street rodders. :rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2018
  5. RiffRaffRoadster
    Joined: Dec 24, 2018
    Posts: 437

    RiffRaffRoadster
    Member

    Atwater Mike-thank you sir for your astute observations. I’m now addicted to this message board because of the valuable education I’m getting on the many different viewpoints in the hot rod community.
    For my car, this discussion on making a Model A body fit on Deuce rails is probably not that relevant because someone figured out how to do it already. Most of the observations have been that the frame was probably pinched.


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  6. big duece
    Joined: Jul 28, 2008
    Posts: 6,016

    big duece
    Member
    from kansas

    Tape measure at the cowl mounting would tell that... 32-Ford-frame-dimensions.jpg
     
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  7. Atwater Mike
    Joined: May 31, 2002
    Posts: 10,263

    Atwater Mike
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    As the car is now apart, I'll await Keith's observation when he sees it, and anxiously.
    Very relieved that you are being this particular, with your new info.
    Your Dad would be impressed.

    @BigDeuce, great idea. (I have a LARGE print of the Deuce frame Squeak Bell gave me a few years back, "Why-didn't-I-think-of-that?" LOL
    Thanks for posting!
     
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  8. Atwater Mike, our memories are running parallel to each other. I also remember Buttera's white Roadster but for yet another modification. The rear Tire fit in the Fender reveal. It blew me away how the tire dia. was so exact to the lip. I soon understood he had actually made a new section to match the Tire and now a fender would never go back in that place. Damn that Li'l John anyway. Things have never been the same since. Few people seem to be happy just making what they have work as is. I guess that's why the H.A.M.B. fits those here so well.
     
  9. RiffRaffRoadster
    Joined: Dec 24, 2018
    Posts: 437

    RiffRaffRoadster
    Member

    OK-I’m going to stir up a hornets nest here. I’ve had a lot of strong feedback to restore/keep the car like it was when my Dad bought it. If I decided to “slightly” modernize my car (strengthen existing frame, swap 283 for a performance 383 Stroker, upgrade to disk brakes, Vega steering, chop the windshield a little, maybe EFI vs carb), but otherwise leave the overall look of the car the same, how is this any different than what the previous owner did in the ‘60s when he converted the old ‘40s highboy to a full fender small block Chevy? Where do you draw the line? I’ll bet there are many opinions on this...


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  10. RiffRaffRoadster
    Joined: Dec 24, 2018
    Posts: 437

    RiffRaffRoadster
    Member

    Stogy likes this.
  11. How do you justify all the "upgrades" when you've never even driven it?
     
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  12. pitman
    Joined: May 14, 2006
    Posts: 4,973

    pitman

    Build it with your priorities in order.
    The quality of how it drives, you've mentioned. The state of mods your dad did, matters. Unless you plan to 'flip' it, do it up just as your vision tells ya.
     
  13. RiffRaffRoadster
    Joined: Dec 24, 2018
    Posts: 437

    RiffRaffRoadster
    Member

    Cactus-I drove it for a day or two 12 years ago when we got the motor running. Of course it had been sitting in storage for 3 decades so the brakes, steering, and suspension were in very rough condition.


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  14. Gotcha. Well I would hesitate to start replacing too much. The old parts are where it gets its soul!
     
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  15. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 16,832

    Stogy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    You draw the line on do you have an interest in history enough to follow a vintage period path which is what you have now. Or cancel that and make a barely Hamb friendly Vehicle. Remember this place ended technically at 1965. With the modern stuff you would then have an inspired Traditional.

    Riff the pinch...run with what you have. As it is as the others have said its pretty period to not have it. If it's done already certainly don't undo it. Secondly your running fenders...its lost anyways in the intersecting panels...put your dough towards the recommended items. I am interested on the unboxed frame...what will the suggestion be towards that. If it was me and I was just driving not racing and they recommended it not necessary I would trust the professionals opinion.

    By the way Hamber @cactus1's build/restore thread on his Belly Button Roadster
    https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum...el-a-roadster-that-was-built-in-1959.1065002/

    is a highly recommended read and another is Hamber @Denns1989

    https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/snoopy-model-a-hot-rod-survivor.942245/

    Both these were as found capsules and the fellas elected to restore within reason as they were back in their heyday which for both was pre 1965 even though Denns was last driven in 72 I think.

    These are just two of the many here who are said in Hamb terminology said to "Get it"

    It's a commitment and you have to want to enjoy the past. That's the Hamb...
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2018
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  16. "Project creep". An innate corruption of an innocent attempt to fix whats needed .... evolving from a snowball into an avalanche. A budget busting, re-engineered, ground up, all new imagined car build. ( $$$$$$$ !!!! )

    May as well sell your Dad's car. Sentimental doesn't hold water, because you've burned what your Dad had in the first place. It's not just a car, the time of plaid pants Dad driving then .... are no longer revisited with a key start.

    Worth more budget wise to sell it as is, to one looking for a time capsule piece, and then use that money to go buy yourself someone else's street rod roadster. Invariably you'll be money ahead, because the former street rod owner, would be the one losing the money anyway. You gain what he lost.

    Your dad would be proud of you either way. Whatever makes you happy, son.

    The difference is : Visions of your dad driving the previous incarnation of your roadster are easy to see, taste, feel, and smell. Dad was there with you. Your history. His history.

    With the new version, of your street rod or another ... you can only use an imagination to think of what dad would have done in said street rod ... and in doing that, you're only serving yourself really. You surely aren't wearing plaid pants, or pumping quarter gas like he was. You're minding your cruise control, and your HD backup cameras.

    I couldn't do it. I love my Dad, ....and I'll never say goodbye.
     
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  17. Moriarity
    Joined: Apr 11, 2001
    Posts: 19,142

    Moriarity
    SUPER MODERATOR
    Staff Member

    It is difficult to explain the feeling you get when you are driving a hot rod from the past. But it is like you are a part of the car, so "connected" to the road, unlike modenized cars where you are disconected or isolated from the process. You have a real opportunity here to "preserve history" to relive your dads dream with this car. My 40 ford (avatar) is all old time hot rod with 49 cad motor 40 ford trans and henry ford suspension and it is a wonderful old car to drive. You can have the same experience with the roadster, just rebuild what is there and be happy that you didn't "tear pages out of the history books"... Oh and by the way that is a Cragar steering wheel, those are rare as hens teeth and are valuable....
     
  18. I would say that pinching the frame is going to increase the difficulty of making the front fender fit. I'd suggest you bolt it back together the way it was when you acquired it. Start modifying one thing and that will lead to something else that will require modification, etc. etc. etc.....

    Phil
     
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  19. RiffRaffRoadster
    Joined: Dec 24, 2018
    Posts: 437

    RiffRaffRoadster
    Member

    Please note-I didn’t say I was doing any of these things. It was rhetorical. Just wondering where the line is drawn. If I’m lucky enough to get some ideas from Rexrods and Keith Tardel, I’ll combine those with my own vision and the period-correct way I found it.
    Again-the spirit of my comment was this: I wonder if the previous owner heard from the hot rod community back in the ‘60s to NOT change the original ‘40s style?


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  20. The jump from the 40's to 60's wasn't extreme, as what the 60's to today is. Think about that. 40's refrigerator to 60's ... near the same. Internal combustion engine ... meh' ... different but not really. Radios ? Hmmm'...

    I don't even want to discuss 2019. You already know.

    Anyways ....

    383 stroker motor cost me 6500 dollars ten years past, for an off topic CJ7 Jeep Why did I do that ? 11.90 et in a Jeep is worthless. Bent the front fenders out catching air, and torqued my top frame bows lopsided. All because I wanted to improve an extremely light vehicle's small block Chevy. Want a smarter owner ???

    P & J frame, 383, body mounts, braking system, new paint for previous .... new body work, new paint, new upholstery to match addition of first part of this sentence. Where does it end ?

    With labor hours, shop overhead, trying something first, that may have to be done again, or more, while the car build continues .... expect to spend 30k plus easily. I'd venture a hell of a lot more.

    Smart owner is a seller. Then buy. Get one already billeted out, with digital gauges, and an LS motor. Air conditioning, satellite radio, shoulder belts and air bags. Cup holders, seat warmers, etcs at cost be damned.

    Wait. Is this a Toyota Prius board ?
     
  21. Tim
    Joined: Mar 2, 2001
    Posts: 11,548

    Tim
    Member
    from Raytown Mo

    In the fewest words possible if you updated it like that it would still be a hot rod. But it wouldn’t be a time machine.
     
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  22. RiffRaffRoadster
    Joined: Dec 24, 2018
    Posts: 437

    RiffRaffRoadster
    Member

    Exactly the point I was making-where is the line? Zero upgrades? Probably depends on the condition of the car when you acquire it. If you find a rusted body in a field with no parts or chassis, you will obviously need to buy some new parts for it. I have an intact car with an apparent period track record. I understand the passion around keeping the car exactly as we found it. Thanks for the comments everyone, great points kidcampbell.


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  23. thirtytwo
    Joined: Dec 19, 2003
    Posts: 2,629

    thirtytwo
    Member


    It’s a domino effect but if that really is the way you want to go I would suggest a complete new chassis in the route you were taking , the vibe can still remain white correct parts selected

    I personally have done a few balancing acts with new boxed frame but still used 40 spring in back , Vega steer or f-1 they still have vintage look but isn’t restored ,

    I have a stock 32 chassis under my roadster with juice brakes, because I want it and I knew the trade off , but anyone who tells you they drive just as good as a boxed vega car is lying to you, but I wanted a time machine that’s part of what you get with restoration

    There are many ways to go about your rebuild ,Modern mustang 2 LS motored chassis will make it best driving , but it will be soulless, like any other new car

    I see no reason for efi or a 383 other than one upper buzzwords for car shows a 300 horse sbc will be a rocket ship in a 2600lb car... trust me have you thought about ditching the auto and going fora 4spd though? That would make the car MUch more fun to drive in my opinion
     
  24. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 16,832

    Stogy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Riff with regards to changes on something such as your Hotrod nobody here is against change...but if there is changes to be made make them period correct for example re-introduce the former Assumed 48 Chev Tailights and remove the fender mounted tailights and smooth the location on the rear fender. (Store the old stuff you replace for the next caretaker) Another would be a chopped windshield with a nice top. In a period method.

    These are guidelines for minor changes that follow the look that would be correct on something like this. If you change respect the timeframe your aiming for which I assume would be 1963 to 65.

    By the way my Hotrod has a engine and transmission that are not period correct...it looks period but isn't so for these reasons I refer to my Hotrod as Inspired Traditional which is welcome here on the Hokey Ass Forum but not Traditional Hotrod and I respect the reasoning for that.

    So these are opinions and Hamb guidelines...There is a huge load of info here in this thread for you to digest but it's really important to understand if you are serious about this place and I know you are.

    Your tranny if all else on your Hotrod was period correct would put it in an Inspired Traditional category. Others will flame you for running an Automatic but theres plenty of those opinions floating around to even if you ran a period correct Automatic (the 57).

    Technically that old Powerglide would put it back in Traditional territory and hey if you could get it back why not. It's part of the original package should you ever want to change out what you have now. Going standard on the tyranny would be an acceptable period change as well.

    I am not changing mine and feel no less a Hamber. I'm an Old Guy...:D
     
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  25. RiffRaffRoadster
    Joined: Dec 24, 2018
    Posts: 437

    RiffRaffRoadster
    Member

    Stogy-you are the one Hamber that has followed this thread from the beginning and has had some really thoughtful and reasonable feedback for me. I really appreciate it. We should have a beer sometime.


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  26. thirtytwo
    Joined: Dec 19, 2003
    Posts: 2,629

    thirtytwo
    Member

    Not really a reason to pinch a 30-31 that’s more of a 28-29 thing , what I started doing years back was narrowing the whole frame about 1.5” that gives a small ledge between frame and body like a 32 , in this case the headlight bar and rear fender placement would be the issues
     
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  27. RiffRaffRoadster
    Joined: Dec 24, 2018
    Posts: 437

    RiffRaffRoadster
    Member

    Pprather-did you have a chance to look at the photos with tape measure? They all looked right for a stock, not “pinched” ‘32 frame to me.


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  28. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 16,832

    Stogy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Anytime your up Ottawa way PM me.

    To be fair lots of others here have given and shared great advice but thanks none the less. If your a True Hamber you would look at what you received as a form of vintage shrine...like on Antiques roadshow when it was like this it was worth...you know the drill...and it's not just the worth...

    The added advantage here is it's a blast to drive even in its vintage form. Those 283's were great little engines lots of power for the light Hotrod.

    Hotrods are primitive by nature...and that is what you have. These fellas your going to tie in with will get you the best ride you can get out of that primitive setup which actually is quite a proven and functional setup...even today.

    I do believe we are all excited to see this get back up to speed for you. Hopefully that will be by this summer...
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2018
  29. We all know these cars have been going through EVOlution since the beginning. What's right for one owner isn't for the next. What I do know is that if the finished project isn't your personal vision your not going to enjoy driving it. Vintage, Old School and the way things were isn't for everyone. Maybe just having your Dad's old Body on a fresh chassis is good enough for ya. That's Okay, it's just not what most of us here on this sight want to see. We enjoy putting up with a little, less than ideal for the Kool factor. In fact my personal Roadster is built with 100% cast off's from others up grades. The newest parts are the 53-55 Brakes and everything about it is all Henry parts. I think I'm the winner. Your cast off will do the same thing for someone else should you decide to build a fresh version of your Dad's Roadster.
     
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  30. redo32
    Joined: Jul 16, 2008
    Posts: 1,730

    redo32
    Member

    A good discussion on what should or should not be done to a survivor rod. All the "you've got a unique rod - Save it" group is here, I'm waiting for the " It's your car do it your way" guys. I'm no help, I love an original car drug out of the barn , but I'm actually too much of a street rodder to hang out here.

    Let me tell you about what I stumbled across a few years ago, a '32 that was hurriedly built in the early 90's. It served it's purpose and unfortunately the owner passed away & it sat for 15 years. I got it running and drove it for two summers, then it started smoking and the trans was slipping worse each trip. It had 4 wheel discs, coilovers front & back, rack & pinyon mounted to the axle, some of it not done well with swapmeet parts. As Kid Campbell stated above, I fell into "project creep". I had a decent 350-350 to put in and started collecting parts to replace the front axle. Ended up lifting the body and sandblasting the frame and what that uncovered was frightful. The last fabricator had done a decent job on a new tubing crossmember and other things, but used owner supplied frame rails that they did not take the time to restore and square. The bondo covered up damage under the drivers door and old crossmembers that had been cut out were plumbing pipe (you could see the threads on the inside of the boxing plates). I borrowed a buddies frame jig and it didn't fit, the drivers side was pushed in an inch at the cowl. What was worse is they welded in a new floor sitting on this frame. Now I'm back logged on projects, but here's the kicker about this car that applies to your situation.

    A couple of guys that worked on this car on it's last build told me the owner found it in a field in Klamath Falls and that there was remnants of candy metallic orange paint on it. Story was it came from the S F Bay area and was a show car with a tbird motor and pinstriping by "the Greek". I have pictures that corroborate this, but the pictures are just of an old rusty body sitting in a farmers field. No motor or other distinguishing parts other that it was a full fendered car with a rumble seat, maybe '39 taillights and the mentioned dash that had holes for 10 instruments. I spent a couple of years asking anybody I ran into from Northern Cal and hours on the phone and I couldn't find any history on this car. If I had found magazine coverage or evidence of a famous owner I might have planned on painting it orange, but I'm not a big Y block fan.

    Some rods are built and not changed for decades, some builders are constantly upgrading, believing that a hot rod is never done. Some are sold and each owner wants to make it his own. Some are recorded in history and others fall through the cracks of destiny.

    I'm going to finish my '32 with a nod to the 60's. I have a 327, T 10 combo that will go fine with the 9" Ford. I like painted wheels or 5 spoke American, with a good wheel rake. Solid color single stage and a classic tuck and roll.
     

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