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Technical Model A Banjo Rebuild - First one

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by TBone69, Jun 28, 2015.

  1. TBone69
    Joined: Aug 21, 2007
    Posts: 829

    TBone69
    Member
    from NJ

    This is my first banjo rebuild. Armed with Tom Endy’s awesome banjo rebuild articles I feel confident to dive in and tackle the job myself

    http://www.santaanitaas.org/technical-reference/tom-endys-tech-articles/

    The purpose of this thread is not a step by step but to share my experience and hope to help others tackle this job.

    If you want to tackle this job yourself completely you will need or have access to a few specialized tools. Pinion puller for pulling out driveshaft and pinion gear assembly, Hydraulic press for bearing removal and installation, Lathe for knurling and truing up surfaces and making carrier preload tool, and possibly a welder to repair spring perches.

    Before we get started I want to share things I have learned. Save every part that has some life left in it even though you may not need it at that moment. I am taking the parts of two rears to make one.

    Feel free to chime in and ask questions, tell me that parts no good or that part is good etc. I look forward to hearing from the group.

    So here we go, I chose this rear because the spring perch mounts were in good order and the axle bearing races looked good and measured round.
    upload_2015-6-28_20-20-21.png


    The axle tapers are a different story though, one was pitted and one was scored, not sure if they will polish up. I do have two more from another rear that are in better shape.

    upload_2015-6-28_20-21-23.png
    This taper has some pitting
    upload_2015-6-28_20-21-53.png
    This has some scoring like the key sheared and the hub spun on the axle.
     
  2. TBone69
    Joined: Aug 21, 2007
    Posts: 829

    TBone69
    Member
    from NJ

    First step was to clean it up. Armed with a grinder and some wire wheels I got to work. Make sure to wear long pants, long sleeves, gloves and eye protection, a good dust mask is also recommended. Prepare to get dirty.

    upload_2015-6-28_20-23-51.png

    After all the grinding I sprayed it down with some simple green, scrubbed it down and hosed it off. Then I blew it dry with the air gun. Note I didn’t bother cleaning the torque tube, it has a crack and I have a better one from the second rear.

    Once clean I shot it with a few coats of Rustoleum rusty metal primer to prevent rust as I will be doing the rebuild over the next couple weeks
    upload_2015-6-28_20-24-29.png


    Close up shot of how the safety wire is setup
    upload_2015-6-28_20-24-49.png


    Time to see what’s inside, is it oil, is it water or a nice thick sludge.

    upload_2015-6-28_20-25-21.png

    Eureka! We have struck gear oil! That 600 weight smells like dead dinosaurs and doesn't come off your hands.
     
    bct and RoddyB34 like this.
  3. Katuna
    Joined: Feb 25, 2005
    Posts: 1,823

    Katuna
    Member
    from Clovis,Ca.

    So glad you're posting this. I have an A banjo in storage that I'm saving for a future project. I received it and stuck it away. Don't know the condition but someday...

    Are you going to be putting 40 style brakes on it?
     
  4. TBone69
    Joined: Aug 21, 2007
    Posts: 829

    TBone69
    Member
    from NJ

    Next up pull the driveshaft. First remove the speedo gear housing then push out the gear with a flat bade. There is supposed to be a snap ring but that was missing. Then once the safety wire is cut away remove the flange bolts and pull of the torque tube.

    upload_2015-6-28_20-26-35.png
    upload_2015-6-28_20-26-45.png
    Uh oh looks like someone has been in here before, the nut looks like a chisel was used to remove it in the past. What else will we find.


    Time to pull the drive shaft out with Pinion Puller tool. You can get this from the Model A parts suppliers out there. Helps to have a set of pinion nut wrenches.
    upload_2015-6-28_20-27-35.png

    Note the puller is bent from a previous dis assembly, never got that drive shaft out.
    upload_2015-6-28_20-28-17.png

    Looks pretty clean inside!
    upload_2015-6-28_20-28-37.png
     
    bct likes this.

  5. TBone69
    Joined: Aug 21, 2007
    Posts: 829

    TBone69
    Member
    from NJ

    Next step is to remove the Left/Driver side axle tube. Note save all the bolts as they are “special” and do NOT run a tap into the hole.

    upload_2015-6-28_20-29-27.png


    Once the axle tube is removed the axles and carrier come out as one
    upload_2015-6-28_20-29-49.png


    Time to inspect the components and this isn’t good. That bearing is not supposed to come off by hand. Also notice the scoring on the center of the carrier. Wonder what that was from, later on we find out.
    upload_2015-6-28_20-30-22.png

    So after a bunch of research on the HAMB and FORDBARN I learn no big deal just knurl the bearing race on the carried in the lathe. Not sure if my ATLAS 618 can handle it but my buddy has a BIG lathe so we can handle it.

    The ring gear was in good shape and matched the pinion gear so I did remove it and it will be used in the rebuild. I also removed the axles and kept the spider yoke to use in the carrier preload tool.
     
    bct likes this.
  6. TBone69
    Joined: Aug 21, 2007
    Posts: 829

    TBone69
    Member
    from NJ

    Then I realized I kept the carrier from another rear so I dug that out and gave the bearings a tug and they stayed on. Also there is no scoring on the carrier castings.

    This one is covered in goo thanks to a mixture of water and 600 weight gear oil.
    upload_2015-6-28_20-31-43.png


    Split the carrier, the bolts covered in goo need a little persuasion with the rubber mallet to be removed.
    upload_2015-6-28_20-32-15.png


    Armed with wire brushes, cans of Brake Clean, pair of gloves and a bunch of rags we have some nice clean parts

    upload_2015-6-28_20-32-27.png
    Note I have already removed the bearing in the press, sorry forgot to take photos.

    I then moved to cleaning up the center section. I started with a gasket scraper then quickly realized the grinder loaded with a twisted knotty wire wheel would make quick work of this mess. Work smarter not harder.
    upload_2015-6-28_20-33-42.png
     
  7. TBone69
    Joined: Aug 21, 2007
    Posts: 829

    TBone69
    Member
    from NJ

    Next up was to remove the pinion gear from the drive shaft.

    First remove the cotter pin and then the nut. About this time I was trying to figure out if I had a puller to remove the gear and it came right off in my hand, that’s not supposed to happen.

    Notice the scoring on the drive shaft taper. So now putting two and two together it seems the original pinion must have snapped the key and spun on the drive shaft and dug into the carrier.

    I have another drive shaft that I need to remove the pinion and inspect the taper, hopefully that one is in better shape.

    upload_2015-6-28_20-35-10.png


    This brings us to the end of the first installment. Basically I have the differential all cleaned up for rebuild.
    I still need to clean out the axle tubes and knock out the grease seal and bearing races and build the carrier preload tool.

    upload_2015-6-28_20-35-38.png
     
  8. This is a good project.
    Check out our little project video below...
    Over a year and it's hung together...
     
  9. Thanks for sharing this. I always am learning new stuff.
     
  10. thommoina33
    Joined: Jun 27, 2008
    Posts: 1,051

    thommoina33
    Alliance Member
    from australia
    Staff Member

  11. TBone69
    Joined: Aug 21, 2007
    Posts: 829

    TBone69
    Member
    from NJ

    The plan right now is to run the original mechanical brakes, we will be running a hopped up banger and plan on running a roadster/roadster pickup body in an early prewar build.
     
  12. TBone69
    Joined: Aug 21, 2007
    Posts: 829

    TBone69
    Member
    from NJ

    Hey RuFFDawg, your thread is actually one of the ones I have read thru researching how to rebuild. I've been thinking about how to mount the rear to rebuild it and like the Ratchet strap method.
     
  13. MJW
    Joined: Jun 29, 2006
    Posts: 471

    MJW
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from NJ
    1. PA. NJ. local HAMBERS group

    You my friend are insane...wanna do mine next?
     
  14. mike bowling
    Joined: Jan 1, 2013
    Posts: 3,558

    mike bowling
    Member

    Excellent "tech" post; plenty of detailed descriptions , and lots of good clear pictures- Thanks from a fellow Model A enthusiast ( who also has the distinct smell of gear oil on his hands!). You are being "watched"! I'm currently trying to re-hab this little gem- a "Twin-X" 2 speed rear end- neat unit; mechanical in/out box, 30% +/- overdrive good in all gears. I've read that with this engaged in 3rd gear, the motor is turning up the same rpm's as it would at 40mph, while the car is going 60mph.( sounds scary in an A!)
     

    Attached Files:

    patmanta likes this.
  15. geoford41
    Joined: Jul 26, 2011
    Posts: 647

    geoford41
    Member
    from Delaware

    Back around 1963 I was 13 & I had an 1930 A coupe with a 4 banger that I cracked the center section during burn outs of my garage, anyway after taking the rear end out and removing the side bells I got the axles/ring gear reversed when I put it all back together and much to my surprise I had 3 reverse gears and only 1 forward! The trials of youth and their first A Ford! I remember it like yesterday! I can laugh about it now, but not then.
     
    flyin-t likes this.
  16. TBone69
    Joined: Aug 21, 2007
    Posts: 829

    TBone69
    Member
    from NJ

    We can handle that, no problem
     
  17. TBone69
    Joined: Aug 21, 2007
    Posts: 829

    TBone69
    Member
    from NJ

    That's an awesome rear! Never heard of one until just recently. Saw one for sale recently on Ford Barn, same one?
     
  18. TBone69
    Joined: Aug 21, 2007
    Posts: 829

    TBone69
    Member
    from NJ

    So you're they guy they wrote about in the rebuild guide? Hahaha :) I better keep my mouth shut before I make the same mistake.
     
  19. mike bowling
    Joined: Jan 1, 2013
    Posts: 3,558

    mike bowling
    Member

    This one was for sale on "Craigslist" with a bunch of other stuff that was part of a "31 roadster "car and parts" sale. I already have a roadster, so spent a year talking the guy into breaking up the package ( all it took was money!). I actually posted a thread on "Fordbarn" to find out exactly what it was, and got 15 responses from some very knowledgeable people. One guy even posted a copy of the sales literature! Amazing info. out there in cyber-land!
     
  20. TBone69
    Joined: Aug 21, 2007
    Posts: 829

    TBone69
    Member
    from NJ

    Took a couple Axles over to my buddy’s shop Wednesday night, he has a lathe big enough to chuck the axles in, and gave the tapers a polish. I’ll select the best two.

    I started with 80 grit, then 120 and finished up with 240 grit. I still need to give the axles a good cleaning and will lap the hubs to the axles when I get that point to finish them up.

    This one didn’t make the cut – Here’s the before
    upload_2015-7-3_18-59-40.png

    And the after
    upload_2015-7-3_19-0-4.png


    This one had some pits and came out ok, but I have better. Here’s the before
    upload_2015-7-3_19-0-48.png

    And the after, this one should be serviceable and I’ll keep as a spare
    upload_2015-7-3_19-1-28.png

    This one looked ok – The Before
    upload_2015-7-3_19-2-11.png

    And the after – better has a little put at the end
    upload_2015-7-3_19-2-35.png


    This one looked good before polishing.
    upload_2015-7-3_19-3-13.png


    And looks great after
    upload_2015-7-3_19-3-35.png
     
  21. TBone69
    Joined: Aug 21, 2007
    Posts: 829

    TBone69
    Member
    from NJ

    Even though I have a bunch of parts that still need cleaning I decided to spend the day today making the carrier pre load tool. A seasoned machinist probably could whip one up, a seasoned machinist I am not. just learning as I go, and remember always wear safety glasses.

    First I started with a 2 inch diameter chunk of aluminum, that I "borrowed" from my buddy's round stock pile.
    upload_2015-7-3_19-11-30.png

    One side wasn't cut straight so I started facing the end
    upload_2015-7-3_19-12-21.png

    Then after a bunch of turning and making many aluminum bird nests, we have a alignment bushing.
    Smaller diameter fits in axle tube and is 1.25” in length and 1.20” in diameter.
    upload_2015-7-3_19-14-18.png


    Time to drill it. Always start with a center bit
    upload_2015-7-3_19-18-55.png

    I used a “T” drill bit from drill set. It’s a tad large than the 5/16 threaded rod.
    upload_2015-7-3_19-19-23.png


    Fits like a glove!

    upload_2015-7-3_19-19-51.png


    Time to drill out the spare pinion yoke. Originally I thought I would drill from the side that already had a hole but I just couldn’t get it to sit flat. Flip it over and all was well. Started with the center drill.
    upload_2015-7-3_19-20-24.png


    Now I got lazy and forgot to take picture of tapping, tapped it 5/16, beveled the end of the threaded rod, threw on a couple nuts and viola, carrier pre load tool.
    upload_2015-7-3_19-22-17.png
     

    Attached Files:

  22. I will be watching also! I can tell you that I had to use the axles and a carrier from the same rear end
    there was to much end play in my new axles and old carrier. I think I did it right, I have over 4 grand on the rear now!!
     
  23. I sure wish you had somehow gone back in time and shown me this in October 1969. I got lucky and things went well in replacing the ring and pinion, but who knows how much more I could have gotten right/done better, with the knowledge and experience you and the rest of the HAMB brain trust could have offered. Great tech article!
     
  24. TBone69
    Joined: Aug 21, 2007
    Posts: 829

    TBone69
    Member
    from NJ

    Hopefully I will get back on this project this upcoming weekend. Been busy with Kid functions, vacation, BBQ's, Birthdays and a bunch of small projects I need to get off the workbench and out of the way.

    One of the projects I need to do is come up with a mounting fixture to hold the rear during reassembly.
     
  25. TBone69
    Joined: Aug 21, 2007
    Posts: 829

    TBone69
    Member
    from NJ

    Made an assembly jig for the reassembly process today.

    Need to finish cleaning hardware and axle tube then we should be able to start reassembly next weekend.
     

    Attached Files:

    patmanta likes this.
  26. Great Tech- Following!
     
  27. TBone69
    Joined: Aug 21, 2007
    Posts: 829

    TBone69
    Member
    from NJ

    Parts Prep

    I spent a couple hours Saturday cleaning up bolts, a dirty time consuming job but it had to be done. I grabbed all the banjo bolts I had, saved extras from rears I junked, and fired up the grinder loaded with a wire wheel. I think I cleaned up 40 or so bolts, tossed a few with bad threads and picked the best 20 out of the bunch.
    upload_2015-9-13_17-4-4.png


    Next I cleaned out the axles tubes and flanges. I sprayed down the interior of the axle tubes with brake clean and stuffed and old t shirt thru it with a pipe. Then repeated a couple times until it was nice and clean. I also removed the old grease fittings and cleaned out the passage ways. I'll install new grease fittings.

    This was such a greasy, oily, dirty job I didn’t get any pics as I was covered in what was once gear oil.

    After some lunch I got down to cleaning the axle tube flanges of old gaskets, sealer, and rust.
    upload_2015-9-13_17-8-0.png


    Closer inspection revealed this gouge from a previous rebuild , not done by me. Dressed down the high spot with a flat file.
    upload_2015-9-13_17-8-47.png

    At this point I figure I would install the bearing races in the axle tubes. Only one problem though
    upload_2015-9-13_17-10-10.png

    Time to clean up and figure out what to do about this.

    *** Stay Tuned Sundays update coming soon ****
     
  28. Binger
    Joined: Apr 28, 2008
    Posts: 1,733

    Binger
    Member
    from wyoming

    Thanks for the Tech. I am in the middle of the same project right now. LOL. Mine is ready go back together. Picked up the gaskets and the last of the seals I needed from Bert's Model A yesterday. Thanks for the good details. The link above to the Tom Endy articles is perfect. I bought a seal install tool at Bert's that will allow you to drive the seals in carefully with a hammer. Or one could be easily enough made. I will watch your progress and post a few shots of my own. I will post up a pic of the tool for the seals I bought.
     
  29. TBone69
    Joined: Aug 21, 2007
    Posts: 829

    TBone69
    Member
    from NJ

    Sunday Sunday Sunday

    Not bearing a person that likes to be defeated I had one of those Ah Ha moments after a few cups of coffee this morning. Well if KRW could make a bearing race install tool so could TJM. I already had the carrier preload tool and figured it just might work as a race installation tool with a different attachment.

    So I dug around in the scrap pile and pulled out this nice flat round that was a little bigger in diameter than the bearing race.
    upload_2015-9-13_18-10-45.png


    Next to drill the center and instead of trying to mark the center and drill in the drill press I just chucked it up in the lathe. Just had to swap the inside jaws to the outside jaws on the chuck and viola! Used a center bit to get things started.
    upload_2015-9-13_18-11-14.png


    Grabbed a 7/16 drill bit as I had used 7/16 threaded rod on the preload tool. I didn’t have a machinist length bit so grabbed a normal ever day drill bit. This isn’t a precision job and it worked out fine.
    upload_2015-9-13_18-11-44.png


    I give you the TJM Ford Banjo Rear Axle Tube Installation Tool!!!
    upload_2015-9-13_18-12-21.png


    Now for the BIG test, let’s see if it actually works. Mounted the axle tube in the vise.
    upload_2015-9-13_18-12-53.png


    Started the bearing race by hand and bolted on the end plate of the installer tool. Never mind the aluminum hammer. :)
    upload_2015-9-13_18-13-25.png


    Started tightening the bolts from the other end and holy crap it actually started pulling in the bearing race. Once I couldn’t tighten any more I backed everything off and took look. Shined a light in there to check to see if it was seated all the way and looks good.
    upload_2015-9-13_18-53-49.png


    Now while I am strutting around the garage like a proud peacock pleased as punch I realize I didn’t install the grease seal inside the axle tube.

    So now armed with the seal install tool, this one I bought, and a length of pipe I installed the seal very carefully not to nick my newly installed bearing race.

    Next axle tube I installed the seal first then the race. It will take a few good whacks to get it seated. The sounds goes from a ringing to more of a muffled plink when it is all the way in.

    upload_2015-9-13_18-54-33.png
     
  30. TBone69
    Joined: Aug 21, 2007
    Posts: 829

    TBone69
    Member
    from NJ

    Now on to the carrier assembly to set preload.

    I had previously given everything a good cleaning but I went back over everything to give it a GREAT cleaning. I wire brushed out all the bolt holes and bolt threads. I then sprayed everything down in brake clean, carb clean, and Mas Air cleaner as I ran out off one.
    upload_2015-9-13_18-58-3.png


    After figuring out what side of the carrier the ring gear goes on, it’s the one without the pin, I dropped the ring gear on and grabbed the modified yoke for the preload tool. Note do not install spider gears or axles at this point.
    upload_2015-9-13_18-58-18.png


    During disassembly I marked both halves with a punch so everything would line up correctly going back together. I started bolting it together and with everything nice and clean the bolts dropped right in.

    One thing I have found during this project is Old Henry used precise machined holes and if something doesn’t go in nicely the bolt is dirty and/or bolt hole is filled with crud and needs to be cleaned out.
    upload_2015-9-13_18-58-56.png


    After running all the nuts down by hand torque to 35 Ft Lbs.
    upload_2015-9-13_18-59-26.png

    Now that the carrier is bolted back together.

    Time to press new bearings onto the carrier, but firsts things first. I needed to find a piece of round that I could use to press the bearing on. Dug around in the scrap pile and found what I think used to be skids for a snow plow. This just happened to have the same diameter as the center collar of the bearing. Perfect! But….

    Thinking a little more I realized the center of the carrier protrudes just a bit above the bearing once it’s installed. Being that I love making things on the lathe time for a little modification to this lump of metal.

    Chucked it up in the lather and faced the end to make it nice and flat.
    upload_2015-9-13_19-0-24.png


    Next I held the bearing up the newly machined surface and marked the end with a blue sharpie. This would tell me the area I need to bore out to fit over the center of the carrier end.
    upload_2015-9-13_19-0-52.png


    At this point I actually centered and drilled the piece of stock, then made a few passes with the facing tool till I had removed enough material that with fit nicely over the end of the carrier.
    upload_2015-9-13_19-1-21.png

    It’s not pretty but it works!
     

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