Midwest Circle Track Racers, Lend Me Your Ears (And Your Ideas) . . . .

OK, by Mid-West, I mean MO, IA, KS, AR, KY, TN, IL, and IN (If you're a long hauler and down with the drive, add in OH, WI, MN, MI, TX, and OK).

I'm a dirt racer. That's what I love. Going in circles on the clay. Hotrodding is a pale substitute that has stood in for me when racing just became too expensive and time intensive for me. But that doesn't mean I don't miss the hell out of it.

To that end, I have an idea that I want to run by you guys, but first, a little history (though most of you ought to know it already, hell, a lot of you probably lived it).

So anyway, thirty plus years ago, short track racing was at a cross roads. All the classes (save for Factory Stock or Bombers) were getting to be very fast, and along with that, VERY expensive. The car counts were dropping, because fewer and fewer guys could afford to compete anymore.

The slab sided wedge and tunnel Late Models were too expensive, Sportsman rules were so different from track to track that building one meant you were married to a single race track, Sprints and Midgets had always been a rich man's game, to say nothing of Super Modifieds (which never really caught on around here anyway). Short track racing was in dire straits.

Then, in steps the IMCA with their spec Modified.

Anyone who's raced on the dirt in the last 30 years has seen or driven an IMCA type Modified.

The class basically saved mid-western dirt racing, with it's motor claim, stock stub rules, and rock hard spec tire. Suddenly, the racing world opened up to junk yard built cars and their attendant drivers again. Low budget racing was no longer a Factory Stock Only affair, and what's more, these cars were bad fast. Far from wallowy and soft strictly stocks, these cars were bullets, held back only by the (relatively) narrow and hard spec tires. They drove like race cars, not grocery getters with a truck full of lead. The hard tire made driving them effectively quite a challenge, and the racing was great.

Everything was hugs and puppies (and flying dirt clods) again, at least for a good while, but now, the unstoppable funding parade has once again descended upon the budget class and worked its voodoo.

Big money in a few places rendered the motor and shock claims useless ("Go ahead and buy it, I'll have another just like it between the rails next week."), and the broadening or relaxing of other rules brought all sorts of goofy and expensive stuff into the fray. Ironically, the 5" OD spring rule actually added to the costs instead of mitigating them, as you now had to have shocks AND coilover eliminators in the rear ($150 CO Eliminators instead of a $35 CO kit). No minimum weight brought thin tubed chrome moly into play, and then tube deletions began until people were eventually killed. The class is a huge mess now, with different rule sets and different levels of enforcement everywhere. The IMCA type Modified has become the Wedge Late Model of three decades ago.

That brings us up to the present, where we racers of less than optimum means once again find ourselves priced out of competition. Racing in a class you cannot really afford is a demoralizing experience, trust me, I know, but once you've driven an F15, it's hard to step back into a Cessna and have any fun (or at least it was for me).

Now, don't get me wrong, IMCA type modifieds are very popular in a lot of places, with robust car counts, but this is not universally true. Just as Late Models had to start touring to stay alive, so too have the Modifieds, which usually indicates a flagging week to week car count at most tracks.

With all the history and bitching out of the way, I will get to the point of this post.

Right now (IMO at least), short track racing is in dire need of another class that will do what the IMCA Modified did 30 years ago.

I have to say straight out and up front, that as a racer, I hate claim rules (on anything), because while the big money guys just treat it like a cost of doing business (and thusly don't curtail their spending), such a rule often ends up landing squarely on and hurting low budget guys who can't afford to replace a motor or shock that gets claimed. That's my feeling on claimer rules, bear that in mind when you read my replies to subsequent posts.

What I'd like to do here is many fold. I'm just going to list them here, so we're all on the same page.

What I'd like to know is:

1) How many guys are on here from the above mentioned states, or travel to the above mentioned states to race on the dirt on a regular basis? This applies to guys who have at one time, and now do not, but would like to again in the future.

2) How many folks here are in good with any race tracks and/or promoters in the above mentioned states? Looking for dirt tracks only at this point.

3) How many guys are interested in running a new class that is faster than a Bomber (shooting for speed on par with the current crop of steel head modifieds), but cheaper to run than an IMCA Modified?

4) Would totally open wheels be a deal breaker for you guys? If so, state why.

5) What kind of motor rules do you all prefer? "Run What Ya Brung" is a hoot, but that's how things get out of hand money wise, so there's gotta be some engine rules. Would a 4 cylinder be out of the question? How about crate motors? Or spec parts? Perhaps a claim?

6) What kind of bodywork do you all like? Junk yard tin that you can easily deal with is getting thin out there, but that could be an option. Maybe fabricated bodies? Aluminum or Steel? Or maybe Fiberglass? Spec parts or anything goes?

7) There would need to be a minimum weight. On this point, I think we must stand firm. Nothing eats up the dollars like trying to shed LBS from a race car.

8) The key to making the motor debate largely irrelevant is a good spec tire. Something very cheap and durable would be ideal. Perhaps a one/two tire a week rule to keep folks from throwing new hides on the car every weekend (which is what most modified guys do anymore, at least on the rear). Retreads maybe?

9) Wheelbase? Most modifieds are 108 inch cars. Would you want to go shorter than that? Any cost considerations or effects here?

10) Ditch the stock stub rule in favor of 100% fabricated frames. IMCA Modifieds are 90% fabricated now anyway. Junk yard perimeter frames are getting hard to come by, and when you can find them, there is way more time and money spent in re-doing and working them into a chassis than just starting from scratch. Hell, the last time I had to buy a frame to re-stub a bent car, I had to spend five times what I would have if I could have just built it out of tubing. We're fighting the resto guys AND the scrappers.

12) Leave the suspension design nearly wide open, front and rear. This is one area that I really like about the IMCA Modified class (in the rear at least, I dislike being stuck with a stock front suspension), and since the frames are fabricated, there's no "stock" stuff available to mandate. This leaves the playing field wide open to any idea that folks can come up with. Perhaps only mandating steel bodied non-adjustable shocks, with a limit of one shock and spring per wheel. Maybe a shock claim (as much as I hate them)?

13) Transmissions and clutches can be a big deal, depending on how you go at them. What kind of rules here? I would think that working clutches and a number of forward gears plus reverse would be mandatory. What about Bert & Brinn transmissions? Automatics (like Powerglides)? IMO the Bert/Brinn type "clutchless" transmissions are the best combination of price and performance, because they live forever, and they're less money than a good four speed, while still allowing a car to stop/start unaided. They ain't junkyard, but in the long term, they're way less expensive, especially when you get into pricing good clutches and bellhousings. A nice minimum weight would make magnesium cases and bells pointless, but even a mag Bert is cheaper than a Super T-10 and a decent clutch.

14) Is this all pointless? lol

I'm sure I've missed something, but this ought to get the discussion started at least.

My personal urges lean a particular way, which I will post up in a day or two. I don't want to do it until I've had a chance to jot down some basic rules and flesh out what I'm thinking on the shape/size of the thing.

Right now, I just want to hear what you guys think.

 

Whew, take a breath. However, you have some stimulating debate and hypothesis hope it works out for ya! Aman

 

lol

There were a lot of breaths involved in that post.

Almost an hour to type it all up.

Basically, I'm just looking to see how many guys there are out there that want to race again, but cannot afford to do it the way we used to.

If there are enough of us, maybe we can figure out our own solution.

Sort of like the HA/GR guys did with their drag cars.

 

As you well know, its all about putting asses in the seats. If the crowd doesn't like them, its over before it starts.

What you need is a 2500lb. dirt late model, (so you can run an older heavier car competitively), with a tire that can't be cheated (pick a tire that is really hard and is one of a kind. Like the Hoosier 70) check the tires with a durometer and a sniffer, non-adjustable shocks, bert-brinn trans, quick change, and aluminum wheels. Don't have anything on the car itself that can't be bought used from a latemodel team. That saves money.

All steel engines with a cubic inch, cranking compression, and hydraulic cam rule. A hydraulic cam will keep the HP and RPMs down. Factory production steel heads only, no titianium valves, no shaft rockers (unless they came on there from the factory). Any intake and carb, on gasoline or E85. There you have a 420-450 hp engine that will last a long time between freshen ups.

If you get caught cheating... Your DONE for the season. Period. See ya next year.

There you go. New class that anybody could afford, that would still be a crowd pleaser.

We race a Steel Head Late Model class and we need a set of rules like this too.

Kevin
Ooltewah Speed Shop

 

I did racing for 18 years and got old[grew up]??

finally I figured out that I had been running around in circles


dont take it personal, but after quiting racing I found out that I actually had some money, and A sore body and bad health to deal with

BUT WHAT A RIDE IT WAS

 

This is good. More posts like this one!

I would love to run in a Limited Late Model class that was based off of real late model chassis.

Around here, when they say "Limited Late Model" what they really mean is "Hobby Stock with a Late Model Nose Duct Taped onto the Stock Body", which is no fun at all.

I have three different models in mind, and each is quite different. On the one hand, I've got a love for Modifieds such that I would like to try and save the IMCA class. Change a few rules but keep the look and speed the same.

On the other hand, true Open Wheel dirt racing is non-existent around here, save for the occasional 360 non-wing Sprint tour stop, so I could really get behind an open wheel class that could be raced on a budget. Something that looked like an early 70's Super Modified, before the things sprouted wings would be my preference on this one. Wheelbase somewhere around 100"-105", center drive, decently heavy minimum weight, spec tire, wide five, steel wheels, steel tube quick change, maybe a crate motor rule, etc.

And on the third hand, like you said above, a heavy late model class with a hard spec tire would be a hoot. I believe a crate engine rule would be a lot easier to enforce than a laundry list of banned parts. If you can't find superb techs, those kinds of rules are useless. Sealed crate engines are cheap, easy to identify and check for compliance, and hell, they even come with a warranty.

This could all be pissing in the wind, but I think if we could build a class that folks can afford to run in, the car counts will be there. With the car counts come the fans in the stands.

If the rules are built right, the racing will be good. The cars have to be fast enough to be exciting, and while challenging to drive, they need to be nimble enough to really slice and dice on the track. If that combination can be found and maintained, the racing will be excellent, and the spectators will follow.

 

Yes, that is true.

I have creeks and aches from racing, and I'm not quite 30 years old yet.

It's hard on the body, that's for sure.

But what the hell, right? The purpose of life is not to end up in your casket in pristine condition. I fully intend to require the use of a broom and dustpan to put me in my coffee can when I'm done. lol

You only get the one life, better'd enjoy it while you're here.

 

Is that car from a class running somewhere, or is it just a nostalgia thing?

That's along the lines of Idea #2 I was talking about.

They're good looking cars, and simple to build, especially if you keep the minimum weight pretty high, and ban the more exotic stuff like live rear axles and the like.

I'm gonna work on organizing my ideas a little better tonight and tomorrow night, maybe type up my idea of what the rules ought to look like and see what you all think.

If the above pictured cars are running in a sanctioned class on a weekly basis someplace, I'd be very interested in seeing the rules they run under.

 

It's nostalgia right now, no racing.


Interestingly, today people seem to act as if it's a cute thing to have these cars, but it's not racing.


Hmmmmm.......now what if people were to build these and race them? I mean new frames and running gears and such? Leave the wings alone and give the sprint car tail design a rest.

 

We have a spec sprint class that runs in california,2 barrel carb,self starting,steel block and heads,flat tappet cam 1700 pounds spec tire no wing 360 ci.Lots of fun easy to work on.
We have some with built motors and some with home built motors ,both win races

 

Central Illinois, gave up about five years ago. Couldn't afford to race every weekend if I didn't tear anything up. Started welding street cars together to pass the time. Maybe I'll try the dragstrip occasionally.

 

Coolhand........great thesis......great discussion. I currently live in Wi. but born and raised in Ia. Built dirt stock cars in 1960's, 1970's. I currently have a couple of dirt midget vintage cars and other projects including some antique tractors. I originally raced against Keith Kanack (sp) the publisher of Hawkeye Racing News in Ia. He resurrected the IMCA modifieds and it was a great idea until it all changed per your comments. What is lacking today is the fan factor that was present in the 50's 60's and 70's. Lots of people could reasonably put together a street stocker or a class higher car at the local gas/service station. They then had an instant local following from the local folks who frequented that gas station and saw the car being worked on. Mainstreet folks went to tracks within 50mi. to cheer on the local drivers and local amateur mechanics. How about a cheap "rent a racer" program where someone enterprising builds 12-15 spec cars, requires a small fee for "driving school" and then allows locals to race against each other. Would also need a deposit for "intentional demo derby tactics" but we would once again have entry level racing, no need to have a shop or be a fabricator and we would bring out a new crop of local fans.

 

That's what I'm leaning toward. The look of nostalgia type Supers, but atop whatever modern running gear you like, and race them hard. No sprint-like tail tanks, no wings or aero devices of any kind, some sort of spec tire, maybe a crate motor rule, width/wheelbase rules, steel body shocks only, unaided start/stop, trans with forward and reverse gears, quickchange with steel tubes, steel wheels, minimum weight of say 2,000 LBS (give or take, the first one built would show which way the limit needed to go).

EDIT: Is it just me, or are a couple of those guy's helmets sticking up above their cages? We might not want to emulate those particular examples. lol

That's about when I stopped running too. I've still got two entire cars living up on the mezanine of my shop. The base cost of the chassis is a small part of the deal, it's the tires, and the motors, and the wheels, and the trick shocks, and the shit you tear up, and the fuel you burn (both getting there AND racing). And honestly, all of that would be worth it, if a man could see some kind of return on investment. You put out all that work, and all that money, and you're still only running fifth or sixth, because at any given track on any given night, there will be four factory touring cars with professional drivers and twenty man crews, who race for a living and have basically unlimited budgets. New tires every night, new engines whenever they need them, fuel is comp'ed, pit passes usually comp'ed, and they walk away with the majority of the purse nearly every night. It's demoralizing. lol

I could go to any dirt oval in MO and run in the top ten without fail. Give me a night or two to work on my setup and I could run top five or six pretty consistently. The problem comes in trying to climb that last little hill. It takes twice as much money, time, and help, (and likely talent ) to consistently run third as it does to run fifth, and twice as much again to consistently win.

When I had settled in at a track and was points racing early on, we were a top three car most nights, and could have taken a few features but for bad luck and bad blood (don't get me started on pissing contests and points racing), but as time went on, it seemed like everyone else found another gear money wise, and we started to slide backwards. The big money guys lobbied to get the rules changed, the weight rule went from 2,500 lbs to 2,300 lbs, and then all the way down to 2,000 lbs. There's only so much lead you can take off a car, so now all of a sudden, we were 400 LBS heavier than the front runners.

Those 2,000 LB modifieds had a dark side though. They'd go away and start flexing and cracking at mid-season (which seemed like a big damned red flag to me, but I digress), so the big dogs just tossed them and built another at half way. Those FR1 guys should have heeded the warnings.

Two guys died in MO alone from those super light chrome moly cars, because they not only made all the bars smaller, they also started outright removing bars from the cage. Eventually, the cages became so weak that when those two guys needed them, they folded up and mashed 'em flat.

Two deaths, within a week or two weeks of one another really opened their eyes though. Those FR1 chassis all showed up with a few new bars the next week, but they were still way lighter than anything else out there.

I'm ranting a bit here, so I'm gonna move on.

Yeah, the local engagement is something of a problem in a lot of places. Not only do the locals not care about the racing, they actively dislike it because it's noisy and dirty (even though they're the ones that moved in next to the track).

Race tracks kind of need to be out in BFE to be safe from city slickers and their lawyers, but that means they're out of sight and out of mind for most folks.

If I had the scratch to build a rental fleet, we wouldn't be having this "budget racing" discussion in the first place.

 

Not traditional but still near to my heart.

Wanna know how to fix it around here? Enforce the fucking rules. The local tracks don't tech the winner beyond a cursory underhood inspection because it's getting late. Winners get teched the next time they come back.

Talk about adding cost......the fast guys have 2 cars. The legal one for inspection week, and the fast one for winning. What the hell good are part rules when you don't enforce them and allow that "inspection" system to continue?

Huge part of the problem rests with the promoters and their blind eye.

 

i have run dirt and my dad ran dirt back in the late 50's early 60's. and now adays it is that most tracks have their own versions of each class. street stock at one track is not a street stock some where else.when i worked on a limited late model 10 years ago around here alot of tracks had them, but no one in the stands wanted them--so they got imca mods. and cut us out.the idea sounds good.the problem i think is to get more then one track on board(as for cheating---well everytrack has their buds. and don't argue---.thry a experamental class at a track and then call around to see if others will let you show the cars to see if the fans might want to see you race.

 

I agree.

This is why the "part tech" type rules never seem to work. You need a team of sharp inspectors who really know their shit and who don't have a bunch of buddies racing there to tech everyone.

Since a team of people like that is impossible to find for most tracks, the tech inspections end up being a big joke.

The solution is to build the rule set in such a manner that any fool with a flashlight and a tape measure can tech the cars.

IMO, the role of the rules are not to ensure everything is "even" like IROC cars, but rather that everything is "fair", meaning equal opportunity.

There's no point in trying to control every aspect of the car. That's impossible, AND pointless, because not every aspect of the car will effect it's competitiveness.

1) Horsepower makes a difference.
2) Weight makes a difference.
3) Tires make a difference.
4) Overall vehicle size make a difference (track width and wheelbase).
5) Shock technology makes a difference.
6) Aerodynamics (both drag and downforce) make a difference.

The rest doesn't make that much difference.

So, how do you address those bullet points that matter?

Here's how I'd do it:

1) Spec a sealed crate motor. GM makes three different models, and I'd bet Ford does too. Give the option of one GM and one Ford motor, and make sure the seals stay intact. If someone wants to cheat bad enough to forge the seals, they'll cheat no matter what you do.
2) Set a minimum weight that is easily attained by anyone. Say 2,000 LBS after the race, with the driver.
3) Set a spec tire, spot check with durometers to catch soakers. Limit each team to one new rear tire and one new front tire a week. Make the tire hard enough to negate any advantage that you'd get from cheating the motor.
4) Say max track width 74", min wheelbase 104".
5) Limit shocks to non-rebuildable non-adjustable steel body shocks, one per wheel, plus a rear end damper and/or a torque arm damper. Coil overs would be fine. Any steel coil or leaf spring would be OK, but only one per wheel.
6) This one is easy. No wings, no side boards, no spoilers, no lips, no wickerbills, no tunnels, no tubes, no funky grates, no field of louvers, and big flat sloped body panels. In fact, I'd say no roofs at all. Hood, deck lid, and side panels built to fit the chassis very closely, and pretty much no other body panels to speak of. Holes in the hood for air cleaner clearance would be OK, but no scoops or any funny business. Basically, if it looks like it might be an aero device, it's gotta go. OPEN WHEELS ONLY, NO FENDERS, SKIRTS, OR FAIRINGS.

Whatcha think?

 

Exactly.

This will all be an exercise in mental masturbation if we can't find someone who knows an adventurous promoter or track owner that would be willing to roll the dice on something like this.

 

Too bad to hear about the current state of IMCA modifieds. I used to think I wanted to get into that, but I have too much invested in drag racing to make the switch.

There's some dudes that run a nostalgia-style dirt modified series here in the northeast. If I was going to get into dirt, that would be where I'd go. I really like that style of car.

Best wishes.

 

a lot of good ideas flowing here! i like the looks of that style sprints or super mods or whatever you want to call them. looks like a lot of fun.
background on myself. ive raced midgets, mods, and currently running a street stock. ive wrenched on all the above and build engines for 4 guys that race locally.
the crate motor is a mess. they just brought in crate lates in central illinois. no tech at all. i go to a local engine builder and he shows me his cheated up crate engines. new cams, major head work. he gets 8 grand and then sells you another 4grand worth of bolt ons to make that extra 50 horses. no shit. ive seen it, and ive seen everyone he builds get sold. so my opinion of the crate engine is the guys with the money will just buy cheated up engines. and unless a promotor will hire a REAL tech man, it will continue.
there is a fix to the engine delima. a couple actually. cubic inch limits. 350 cfm 2 barrel carb. even the dreaded restrictor plate. and the number one engine limiter is use a hard ass street tire like the cooper cobra.
i like the looks and the ideas that everyone has talked about, but the bottom line is you better have 15 cars ready to race before any promotor is going to let you run at his track on a regular basis.

 

Yeah, and therein lies the problem.

Any way you slice it, you're gonna end up with $15,000 in one of these things, and that is one hell of a gamble to take, especially in this economy.

Maybe a partnership could be drawn up, where X number of participants actually contractually agree to participate. That would give some clout to the guys doing the negotiating with the tracks.

I hate to advocate for a touring series, because all that travel costs, but that may be the only way to get enough cars together to put on a show for the first couple of seasons.

I never minded driving a couple hours to race, but four or five hours is another thing.

We ran with some Sprint guys that hauled all the way from Ohio to race in Holt's Summit MO. That's one hell of a drive for a single race.

It's not gonna do any good to have a "budget" class if you've gotta be on the road across three states to race them. Ya know?

And maybe I'm being naive about the sealed crate motors. I don't have any experience with them. What I DO have experience with are tech officials that cannot use the displacement meters, don't know the rules, don't know what they're looking at when you get the car apart, and have buddies that can get away with anything.

Displacement limits and compression limits and specific carb rules will have the intended effect, provided that the tech guys can handle it. However, it has been my consistent experience that by and large, the tech guys cannot handle it. When the techs don't know their shit, things get out of hand real fast.

That's what happened with our "A" modifieds around here. The motor rules were unenforcible, so they they just got rid of them all and simply said no aluminum blocks. Their only test? Stick a magnet to it.

Consequently, what we ended up with were a lot of cars with Rodeck blocks wearing steel dust laden paint for the magnet's sake.

After a while, they even stopped checking that.

 

we traveled to farmington and even sweet springs a couple of times. man thats a long haul from central, il. lol. id like to be involved in something like this. could probably build a couple cars even. but the reason i went to street stocks is i can race at 8 different tracks within 100 miles, and the closest is 30 miles away. i still got money in my engine ($4500) buying used emod tires, and still having a blast, and the best part is im not broke!

 

I can't get the link to load (not so tech savvy) but check out what the guys out in the wild west are up to... looks alot like what you might be lookin to do; simple, openwheeler, and looks cool too ! Go to www.american-shorttrack-racing-expo.com and click on Jalopy Project on the left hand menu.

 

I feel your pain, and a few years ago I started writing a set of rules that I thought would be a good cheap class. I have to disagree with you on the fully fabricated frame issue. You have to be able to go to the boneyard and get parts for a race car. I agree that the "Metric" type of frames are getting harder to find, but there is still one type of frame that is easy to find and that is the mini-truck chassis-S-10,Ranger,Dakota, Nissan, Mazda and Toyota all have chassis that can have a rollcage welded on them and you have an instant race car. Add a fiberglass coupe or sedan body like the bodies Speedway sells and you would have a cheap, fast class that people would love.

My rules were loosely:

1.Mini truck chassis only: S-10, Ranger, Dakota, Toyota etc., leaf springs in the back only. Weight jacks allowed.

2. Center steer.

3. Engine setback measured from centerline of rear end to back of the block-60" or so.

4. Engines would be 305 sprint car style, but with Fords and Mopars allowed-max c.i.d. would be 320c.i.

5. American Racer G-60 tire or equivalent

6. Self starting, but spuds OK.

7. Bodies would resemble old upright modifieds from the 60's and 70's but with flexibility allowed as far construction-steel, aluminum fiberglass etc. No IMCA style modified bodies allowed.

 

Farmington is a dandy track, I crewed on a 410 non-wing Sprint down there a few times.

It's one hell of a drive from here too. Kind of one of those deals where you can't get there from here.

I gotta go damned near all the way up to St Louis and then way back down along the river to get to it. That's at least two hours out of the way, but the damned National Forest is right between us and them, so we gots to take the long way around. Crappin' squirrels and beavers and such. lol

 

This will take you to the page (maybe not so un-savvy as I thought)

 

That's a cool concept, but part of the point I was driving at was to get AWAY from the 1-800-BuyARacer concept of building the thing out of a catalog.

I would really like to leave the rules open enough to allow folks to get wild with the stuff that doesn't cost too much. Tubing is cheap. Let folks experiment with the the chassis and suspension systems to go as fast as they can using the engines and tires you stick them with.

This IROC catalog racer concept that seems to have taken over everything has made dirt racing something less than it used to be. Everything is the same anymore. Aside from the colors and the stickers, the cars all look alike, regardless of the class.

There's no reason that it has to be that way.

Your heart is in the right place, but if there's anything on the road with a worse front suspension system than a late GM metric car, it'd be a mini-truck.

I just fail to see how it is cheaper to buy junkyard stuff and rebuild it, than just buy some tubing and build what you want from scratch.

Besides, nothing says that just because you fabricated the chassis from tubing, you have to also build the suspension parts from scratch. Let them use whatever parts they can find in the yards, or if they can't find or afford what they need, let them build it from scratch.

I guess junkyards around here aren't what they are elsewhere. I guarantee that if you went to buy an S-10 rolling chassis at a salvage yard around here (assuming they even had one), they'd want at least $1,500 for it.

I needed a single frame horn from a 68-72 Chevelle once to fix a modified I'd wadded up. The guy had one he was going to crush, but he said he'd let me take my own torch out there and hack off what I needed beforehand for the paltry sum of $350.

No shit, $350 for a 20" long piece of frame rail. I told the son of a bitch to crush it.

I ended up buying a complete parts car from a little old lady for $300. That got me what I needed as well as two lower control arms, the whole rest of the frame, and a bunch of other shit to scrap or part out to boot. That was quite an aside, but it illustrates the magnitude of the douchenozzleness exhibited by most of the salvage yard owners around here. They're not all bad, but unless they are racers themselves, they see the racer as a fat wallet with an asshole attached, and treat us accordingly.

Maybe that sort of thing is what has me set against junkyard stuff so much. Well, that and the fact that the ten yards nearest me do not keep anything at all that is more than five (5) years old. That's not a very big swath of time to accumulate chassis from.

But again, maybe that's just my personal bias.

I've always been of the opinion that a race car ought to be built like a race car, and most all OEM suspension is antithetical to that end. First and foremost, a race car must be fast and handle like it means it. This is why I dislike Factory Stock and Strictly Stock so much. The poor bastards piloting those things have to wallow around like pigs on ice, when just a little bit of rearrangement and tweaking could make them truly fast and moderately agile.

I do like the no-IMCA bodies rule though. That would at least help the cars maintain some character and variety of shape.