methanol/water injection

I'm looking for some in-depth information on these systems.
Preferably a book that delves deep into the theory's application but a good discussion is always welcome.

I'm contemplating building a NA carbureted engine to take full advantage of everything the system provides.

 

Sorry NA?

 

naturally aspirated no boost

 

There is a ton of information on the internet but it's just a bunch of hype.

The local news channel bought several kits and plans to build the injectors and had them installed by professional mechanics at local dealerships and they ether didn't work or decreased mileage.

Bottom line,,smoke and mirrors.HRP

 

the only thing I remember is that JC Whitney used to sell the add on kits.

 

If this type of injection was relevant to makeing power ,it would still be around today. It was just a knoc suppresser, primarly when adding boost if one was unable to retard the spark while the engine was running. On my Turbo engine the injection turned on when boost registered 2#. You would have to install a knoc senser (pizo) to relate to the unit to turn on an off as needed to combat knoc.
There was somthing out there that was a siphfen type that used a blue colored fluid that would claim Horsepower, less smog & higher milage, but I would group that with magnets on the fuel line and mini propellers under the carbs gimicks.

 

Well Snow and others make kits and they have the "buy this because" info.
I might piece my own system together.
I think I've seen at least 1/2 the inter web hype and got tired of sifting thru it to find a few morsels of good stuff I did find.

As far as the decrease goes, it will probably be true BECAUSE the system adds nothing performance or milage wise in and of itself. What it does is allow more compression on pump gas, more timing, and aggressive tuning. Build an engine around benefits of the system and it should have quite a but more uumph than one without it. This engine will probably self destruct on pump gas without the system.

 

As far as using a methanol/water system on a street driven car, it's like the previous posters have said in that it's a waste of time and money unless you have a very high compression ratio. But in a racing application, especially with nitrous oxide, the methanol/water works to keep the cylinder temperature down and you get better use of the nitrous.

 

I installed a modern adjustable water-alcohol spray unit on a modified 302 GMC that was having some detonation issues.I dicked around with it for awhile and it did eliminate the detonation to some degree.I never felt it added any power...
There was talk about the spray causing premature ring and cylinder wear.....
These units are normally used in supercharged situations....

 

Apparently the boost guys love the stuff for cooling the charge. Turbo, centrifugal and roots guys use it a little differently.

 

You would be better off looking into thermal coating piston dome, valves & combution chambers as a way to control erattic flame behavior.

One night many years ago, I go out to my car and hear somthing buzzing, it was the pump for my water injection filling up my engine

 

Can't help except for this pic........

 

Snow performance offers systems for Naturally aspirated engines. They only seem to know/care about the all out benefits, and are pricey. I have one for my 12:1 427, but have not got it working yet. I am shooting for basic driveabilty. There are many systems for sale on Ebay that go back to the 70's-80's for much less. I have found a lot of info on Google searches, but nothing in book form so far.

 

best used in super high compression motors like diesel stuff for cooling egt's while towing. Tinker with something else like a Flux Capacitor.

 

I have used many Snow kits and have had great results. I had a barrel of methanol and mixed my own in different ratios. I have seen over 100 hp on a turbo diesel and 85 on a NA diesel. I made the most power with a 55% methanol ratio and the egt came down by almost 150*. The extra fuel is the key to more power and efficiency while the water takes the potential for detonation down. It is something you have to play with to find what works for your setup and gives you the results you want.


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See that's just it, not good unless engine is high compression or boosted.
Diesel guys love it too.

Its cold and cabin fever gets me thinking.

On a boosted engine , you start off with a low 8:1 compression ratio and that promotes a loss of low end power until your boost builds up. @ about 15psi boost the compression is almost double 16:1 with variables. There's a pumping loss, and a parasitic loss that happens too that takes power from the extra power you are making. Some say its 50% and I'm sure it depends on the type of boost, engine and several dozen other things. When the boost goes up the timing comes down and that's another necessary loss.

You can forget a lot of that stuff and just build a race gas only super High Compression engine. Lots of dough in fuel to run that on the street.

Now these systems run around 400 ish and can be built cheaper than that. They should allow pretty high compression on regular pump gas. Not have any of the parasitic loss from boosting and less loss from pulling more timing. At roughly 15% of the cost of boosting and with race fuel at 7ish a gallon should pay for itself in about 100 gallons or so.

Some will say " if this worked they'd be doing it" that's OK, I'd like to see some tests or results from someone building an engine specifically with using it at the top of the list and it not working. I can't find any. I can find adding on with no tuning doing nothing. I can find adding on allowing more tuning and increased power so it does work.

 

Think of it as an intercooler in a spray can. Helps on boosted engines because compressing the air heats up the air charge. I tried water injection back in the 70's and it didn't seem to do much for a normally aspirated motor. I’d like to run the Snow kit on my turbo diesel truck but it’s too damn expensive.​

 

Actually they work quite well as a detonation suppressor, especially if you are are running underhood air. Quite effective at reducing the inlet temp, especially if you use a water/alky mix. A simple one can be built very cheaply, just use your windshield washer jug/pump a holley jet in the end of the tube, and a Hobbs switch. Coatings also have alot to offer, especially on the face of the intake valve.

http://sensing.honeywell.com/index.php?Ne=2308&ci_id=3713&N=3601&la_id=1

 

I used a Snow unit on a Y block with about 10.5 compression. On the chassis dyno it did make a few more HP, but I ran out of time to tune it. The unit is back in the box and for sale.

 

My Methanol/Water injection setup works really well on my Accel turbo'd 351W.

Without, it starts to rattle at 5PSI.

With, it doesnt...


So if you'd build a N/A engine with too high of a compression ratio for pump gas, I dont see why some M/W injection would not work to keep it from detonating itself to death.

Its old technology.

I know a guy who used to mix it for airplanes. ( Mil. transport, I believe )

 

What happens when you are on the road and run out? are you going to carry around 5 gal with you? Here on the west coast we have the Grapevine, Cajon Pass and the Baker grade-all steep long ass killers.

 

I don't see why anyone couldn't carry at least 1 gallon even on a motorcycle even though it would go by quarts. Since there's a High Pressure pump involved a 30 gallon tank could be put on some vehicles. Some place in between those two shouldn't be a problem. Most things I've read is that about 1gallon per 20 gallons of fuel.

 

You walk to the nearest gas station or parts store and get some windshield washer fluid.

That should get you home...

 

Dont even have to walk, just turn the distributor back a tad. Its not rocket science...

 

The Snow kits work great, we have sold/installed a bunch of them and out of all the ones we have bought, we have only had one problem and they stood behind their product and sent us another one, no charge. You can buy a cheap kit from Snow for 300 bucks or so that will cover the basics, but they have an upgraded controller that does all kinds of neat stuff. As for consumption, the more radical and the more loud pedal you use, the more meth you will use. I have customers that have driven their cars on road trips without wailing on the throttle too much and used hardly any meth. It's basically all about the load, you can run a 14:1 engine on pump gas and never burn it up if there is no load, but a 9:1 steel headed 389 in a 7000 pound car will break a piston in a heartbeat. We have done testing on our engine dyno and the Meth does make power, but it has to be tuned properly or you will get nothing from it.

 

Forced Induction Performance Tuning by A. Graham Bell:

http://www.amazon.com/Induction-Per...6911/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1360055690&sr=8-1

Good book with a couple of chapters on the subject. He explains how it works, why cheap or untuned systems don't work, and alternatives to water or methanol - injecting high octane toluol or avgas has the same effect as water and/or methanol, it makes the engine behave as if it's running on higher octane fuel when it needs higher octane to stop detonating, without the corrosion water/methanol may cause.

 

Yeah, but his next question would have been " but what happens if I forgot my tools as well?"

 

Alcohol/water injection actually costs power on a turbocharged or supercharged engine, but, the additional compression, boost, or spark advance it allows more than makes up for the power the alcohol/water injection costs.

Alcohol/water injection can give a short term power increase when combustion chamber temps are high and the fluid is first injected. After that the fluid injection costs power. With continuous vapor(not fluid) injection some will experience a mileage increase. That happens because the vacuum leak caused by the vapor system leans the fuel mixture.

Although tested and documented, I don't understand why there is no benifit from adding more than about 50% alcohol to the water. It seems like the alcohol would provide more energy. Maybe it's because vaporizing water can cause more heat reduction than alcohol. Alcohol reduces the surface tension of water, making it easier to vaporize, so maybe that's the primary benefit of the alcohol?

 

During WW2 water-alcohol was used as an anti detonation fluid in highly supercharged fighter aircraft,especially the USA. Allison V 1710's were running near 40 psi blower pressure for up to five minutes.Engineers said the water alone offered more detonation resistance, but alcohol was added to prevent freezing at altitude.They also found it lost it's effectiveness at very high altitudes,not a factor with vehicle The usual ratio was one gallon of fluid to 10 gallons of gasoline.
Allison primarily used ADI in place of large inter coolers...Others used both to control detonation

If no one mentioned it already,the early 60's Olds F85 turbo option used ADI fluid.When it ran out,supposedly the boost was limited.
If you run out on the road,no need to mess with timing,just drive very easy....

 

http://www.enginehistory.org/Frank WalkerWeb1.pdf

Around page 8 or 9 they start talking about water injection and a bit later about the alcohol, types and percentages.