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Technical ***May 2021 Banger Meet Thread - Great Shop Weather***

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by Jiminy, May 1, 2021.

  1. steve hackel
    Joined: Mar 5, 2010
    Posts: 228

    steve hackel

    Really.... ? At some point, you guys just need to give up this "Shit Sandwich" attitude about
    a reproduction block that was produced in China - period! Both Terry Burtz and Todd Buttermore
    are due their place in history (in both gratitude and recognition) as little as it might be with respect to your small mindedness.
    If you have a bitch about this now, and at this point in time and production, why is it that not a single one of you bothered to step up and try this monumental feat on your own - risking your savings
    and possibly everything else along with it. Have any of you ever tried to reproduce even a single
    small parts for a model A, a Corvette, or even just a well designed replacement part for a lawnmower?
    No, I thought not, as the ones that always complain the loudest are the ones that have absolutely no
    education or real world experience in this always evolving art form of replacement parts both large
    and small. Do you refuse to consider a Burlington crankshaft, the new inserted AER connecting
    rods, the New Zealand harmonic balancers, how about a Best gasket product that has materials
    produced in other countries, or a SCAT crankshaft that is produced over seas but ground here
    in the states.... haven't heard much bitching about any of these products lately.
    So in conclusion to my somewhat short, but still sweet rant, don't use anything that isn't
    produced here in the states ; but possibly you can convince the FORD motor company to
    reproduce the model A block once again.... just let me know how you'll feel if
    you find out that it's produced in Brazil or Argentina, or possibly even China.......
  2. Savage Coupe
    Joined: Jun 20, 2020
    Posts: 24

    Savage Coupe
    from Washington

    You are correct, many of our parts are made over seas. I know a lot of work went into making this happen and I respect that and I’m not opposed to running a burtz block. I just wish we could pay an American foundry here in our own country to produce a new Mosel A block. I’m sure the cost would be astronomical compared to the current asking price. Didn’t mean to ruffle any feathers, just curious how others felt. Guess I got my answer.
  3. brokenspoke
    Joined: Jul 26, 2005
    Posts: 2,918


    BeaverMatt likes this.
  4. I have another view of this,
    On the surface, I too wish this was a US manufactured assembly. Terry and Tod have been working on this for a long time and neither one has been able to offer product yet.
    Terry and John have taken another approach, they went to an Engine manufacturing company.
    This is a huge advantage, all they do is make engines and they have the expertise to produce all of the parts involved.
    That fact made the project go very smoothly, all the required parts sizing/tolerance and necessary information was in one place. Some of the features/details used are on the high tech side of production that most do not have the capability of.
    On the issue of competition, we will have to wait and see if the organizations adopt this.
    I personally do not see it happening, how would you compare a record set (Vintage Class) even as recently as 10 years ago (with 90 year old equipment) be broken by in essence a 2020 production assembly?
    There is nothing stopping you from running this motor in the Standard displacement classes, but you are handicapping yourself against a modern engine design. And no, I do not see another engine class being adopted/created, it makes no sense.

    Just MY $.02, John
  5. hardtimesainit
    Joined: Jan 24, 2009
    Posts: 554


    ‘guess I got my answer’ !
    Well, you got AN ANSWER(s), but lets cut thru some of the BULLSHIT.
    Firstly..... the BURTZ engine is Terry Burtz creation... and NO due to no one else ... period !!
    If you don’t know HISTORY of Terry Burtz and his many long years of trial and failure ... to have his engine produced in AMERICA ...don’t spread gossip that would indicate that Burtz’s ENGINE is tainted with anti- American BS !!
    NOTHING could be further from truth of this matter.
    So, what is the TRUTH ?
    Terry Burtz spent HIS money, many years and talents....IN THE USA, and could not obtain a foundry with the ability, knowledge and talent to make BURTZ engine ! Any other question ?

    As for weather the Burtz (A), and or the Donovan (B).... is NOT “allowed” to compete with antique 4 cyl engines...who cares ?
    Run what ya brung, is saying older than anyone here. In fact, I say...discourage hell out of anyone who runs anything different... say without a fancy paint job.. ha !

    As for mixing up Terry Burtz name/accomplishments ... with Tods... Burtz engine IS A FACT, and will exist forever as a GREAT touring engine for the model A hobby !
    I guarantee that ,for the money and many improvements , it will never be matched

    On the other hand, Tod has made many needed parts for the hobby. He has not made any engine that remotely compares to the Burtz engine !
    I personally have waited for over five years.... for a five main alum blk that was scrapped.
    Im aware of others who also placed $ up front.. with similar endings. This situation in America !
    So, do not talk down on Burtz monumental accomplishment ... unless you know facts, eh !!

    China SUCKS bigtime !!!
    Hamtown Al likes this.
  6. steve hackel
    Joined: Mar 5, 2010
    Posts: 228

    steve hackel

    With several private messages sent to me (good & bad) I meant what I said about complaining
    about the products not being made here, and not the decisions forced to be made to go to China to
    produce an engine that we can't produce here in the USA. We as a country have given up so much
    in favor of appeasing the children, teachers, parents, and bystanders so as not to ruffle any feathers
    and just give everyone a participation trophy because they happened to show up. Tool & die makers,
    pattern makers, automotive mechanics, laborers for construction - few if any want to get their hands dirty, as long as someone else does the work for them. Saddened by much of our current situations,
    what many yearn for will just never be again. This has become somewhat personal for me, as many
    continue to ask why I don't reproduce items "X", "Y", or even "Z" for the things I rebuild and restore,
    but to a person they would all refuse to pay what the finished product would cost even if it met with their approval . "IF" we could have had an A' motor produced here in the states, how many would have stepped up and bought one for $8,000 or $10,000 versus the Burtz engine for $3,500 ..... not many. If I have offended anyone, I truly apologize - personally - but please, just don't complain about the lack of an item that isn't produced from Un-obtanium and sold by the Un-affordable . It's not a fair to those that are willing to go to the lengths to continue helping out the hobby.
    Just keep one thing in mind with a paralell example - now that we as a country are no longer energy
    independent (again) and will be buying much of our oil from other countries in order to make
    (or even supplement) our gasoline for our cars, I wonder how many of you USA supporters are
    planning on parking your vehicles when you find out that the gas needed to run it, actually came from
    another country and not our own back yards. Sort of like getting another participation trophy.....
    I apologize to you all , regards, Steve
  7. So can we stop beating the dead horse with all this?

    Regardless of how you feel, we should be glad that someone is doing something to keep these old cars on the road, and at higher speeds as well.
    loudbang, Kiwi 4d, BeaverMatt and 2 others like this.
  8. Steve,
    No need to apologize, in my opinion.
    Everyone has their own reality, don't tell me how much your Hot Rod cost, tell me what you made and how much skin came off YOUR fingers.
    I see Terry's motor as a win for the Hobbyist, especially since the Babbitt Art form is slowly dying off. We could only hope that someone else will start to make more parts for the Model A.
    Your analogy to gas is a good one, how many Model A's share a garage with a Prius or a Hyundai?
    Stan Back and Savage Coupe like this.
  9. winduptoy
    Joined: Feb 19, 2013
    Posts: 2,400


    I'm not saying anything...
    I have a Model A with a Chevy in it.....
  10. Jet96
    Joined: Dec 24, 2012
    Posts: 1,299

    from WY

    I thought for a while about saying anything. But...stating teachers and children are responsible for the decline in manufacturing in this country instead of greedy board members forcing owners to increase profits at all costs is one of the strangest things I've ever heard.
    Carter, winduptoy and Dedsoto like this.
  11. burl
    Joined: Nov 28, 2007
    Posts: 743

    from Minnesota

    i can do even better with a banger in a dodge coupe henrys revenge as @brjnelson would say
    Last edited: May 4, 2021
    brjnelson, winduptoy and Jet96 like this.
  12. burl
    Joined: Nov 28, 2007
    Posts: 743

    from Minnesota

    No chinesium crap on this old beater just good old hand made stuff checking in for the

    Sent from my iPhone using H.A.M.B.
  13. steve hackel
    Joined: Mar 5, 2010
    Posts: 228

    steve hackel

    I apologized, didn't mean to offend - taught for a while, but left early on because of the politics.
    The school systems around here have no shop classes, no industrial arts of any kind, teachers
    don't teach anything related to it because their claim is that the children don't need to know
    these things as cluttered facts, they can always access the internet for anything they might need.
    You all might think it silly, but how would you react to kids graduating from H.S. that can not
    read a ruler ; not a joke, they stopped teaching that sort of stuff around here in the early 2000s
    as my son was in H.S. and he still struggles with a tape measure. You can't hire someone if they
    can't read a ruler, can't operate a broom much less a piece of machinery. I did not mean it as a condemnation, but rather stating a fact. The values most of us grew up with are no longer being
    taught, so how can you expect to have a work force capable of building, designing, or repairing
    something if the younger generation does not know or wish to know about things most all of us take for granted. WE all like and accept a challenge, that's why we play with model A's , and the thought of
    dirty fingernails and changing the oil in a car make most of us smile. I myself am busier now
    at 73 than I was at 50, and except for a few freelance individuals, I am the last of a dying breed
    in my small segment of the restoration business - just think how hard it is for any of us to find a good qualified individual or business that can still do Babbitt, and do it the right way? Not many.
    There are land mines everywhere we step and every time we open our mouth, and I didn't mean to pull the pin on a grenade . Fortunately for all of us, Terry got it right and I for one am excited to be
    on the list of the next group of engines being shipped in (from China). Your A' might be near and dear to your heart because it was built here, but look around you and understand what you see; your
    phone and computer are not from here, your TV and stereo are not from here, the majority of the
    newer tools we use are not from here unless we have things from back in H.S., your Briggs & Stratton lawn mower engine is not from here, the majority of the clothing we wear is not from here.
    Technically, the majority of us A' owners did not let it happen - excluding the phone & computer comments - but the general population is responsible for letting the politics start overall movement.
    You're all welcome to voice your opinions about this, or about me, but you're also all welcome
    to stop by the shop and drop something off for me to fix - or just to say HI !
    I salute the Flag, and stand for the national anthem, you're all cool - you drive model A's !
  14. Crazydaddyo
    Joined: Apr 6, 2008
    Posts: 3,204


    Somehow I knew this topic would create some chatter on here.

    Jet96 and winduptoy like this.
  15. hardtimesainit
    Joined: Jan 24, 2009
    Posts: 554


    Hey nothing wrong with that, IMO !
    My all time favorite model A... was a ‘30 roadster... with a full house built 265 chev !
    Should have kept that one.
  16. railcarmover
    Joined: Apr 30, 2017
    Posts: 643


    Spent a week with the woman, to hell with women, back to cars. When a car has a problem you can fix it.

    On an estate liquidation right now.. the heirs all watch mecum and barret jackson but all their stuff is picknpull...cest la vie,such is your banger,its time... Funny, a local kid actually played chicken with me with his dodge challenger on a street in my subdivision, the little twit cut away first.. I taught him, age and treachery defeats youth and skill everytime..
  17. winduptoy
    Joined: Feb 19, 2013
    Posts: 2,400


    Looking good but how does it run? Inquiring minds want to know.... maybe I should have said 'perform'
    Looks like it might not have coolant in it as I don't see a plug in the inlet pipe.
    If you'd turn it around, end to end, it would make the drain the low point in the system.

    rwrj and Dustyp489 like this.
  18. burl
    Joined: Nov 28, 2007
    Posts: 743

    from Minnesota

    Sounds healthy should get some seat time this weekend surprisingly enough nothing leaks yet
  19. Strong chance I might be buying a Scintilla Vertex for the Hot T banger. Does anyone run one of these?

    I have a few questions.

    Would I have to time it with an A timing cover, or a B?
    Also, could I be fine with a simple on / off switch, or do I need to run a magneto ignition switch?

    Picture for attention ;)

    Mikko_, burl and winduptoy like this.
  20. winduptoy
    Joined: Feb 19, 2013
    Posts: 2,400


    Grounding the mag kills it. Any switch will do a 'real' mag switch has the cool factor.
    Make sure it has mechanical advance. Stationary engine... constant RPM operation don't.
    I'd say, static time it like you'd time the dizzy you are replacing

    Sent from my XT1585 using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
  21. railcarmover
    Joined: Apr 30, 2017
    Posts: 643


    Chesty Puller (look him up) faced a million screaming Chinese at Chosin Reservoir during the Korean War..dont think it won't happen again..only this time I wonder about our youth,if they are up to the task of defending freedom like those frozen hungry marines were...

    freedom,given up with words,won with blood.
    ROCKER77 and loudbang like this.
  22. Stan Back
    Joined: Mar 9, 2007
    Posts: 1,075

    Stan Back
    from California

    . . . what kinda switch? . . . was that a switch?
    winduptoy likes this.
  23. Should this not be Switch Back instead of Stan Back?
    winduptoy likes this.
  24. rwrj
    Joined: Jan 30, 2009
    Posts: 674

    from SW Ga

    Good eye on that coolant pipe, @winduptoy.

    winduptoy likes this.
  25. burl
    Joined: Nov 28, 2007
    Posts: 743

    from Minnesota

    Thats cool. I would like to know if anybody has actual experience running a mag on the street

    Sent from my iPhone using H.A.M.B.
  26. Fair enough!

    I’ll have to do more research on what he has.
    winduptoy likes this.
  27. Me too!! Fortunately this engine will only be raced
  28. railcarmover
    Joined: Apr 30, 2017
    Posts: 643


    Point taken brother,point taken
    rwrj likes this.
  29. Mikko_
    Joined: Aug 3, 2018
    Posts: 362

    from Sweden

    I know a guy here in Sweden that runs a mag in his '29 fordor.
    The car and engine is all stock otherwise and it works great.
    burl likes this.

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