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Technical ***May 2019 Banger Meet - May all 4 stay in the block***

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by Jiminy, Apr 30, 2019.

  1. Jiminy
    Joined: Oct 25, 2012
    Posts: 350


    Coming Events: (PM Jiminy with additions/corrections)
    May 11 49th Annual Antique Nationals
    May 31 - June 2
    Hot Rod Dirt Drags
    Movie Manor
    Monte Vista, Colorado
    June 19-22 Speedsters Trials & Reunion
    Lincoln, Nebraska
    June 29th F.A.S.T. Time Trials at the Santa Margarita Ranch
    9 miles North of San Luis Obispo, off Highway 101
    September 14-16, 2018 The 5th Annual Hot Rod Hill Climb
    Central City, Colorado

    October 4th, 5th and 6th T.R.O.G. Wildwood, NJ
    2019 SCTA El Mirage Race Dates:

    All events are held at the El Mirage Dry Lake in Southern California.
    June 9th
    July 21st
    October 20th
    November 9th - 10th
    2019 SCTA/BNI Bonneville Race Dates:

    The BNI has two major events each year at the Bonneville Salt Flats outside of Wendover Utah.
    August 10th - 16th, Speed Week
    October 1st - 4th, World Finals

    For the HAMB banger newbies, here are some links to a lot of banger info:

    Jim Brierley's book 4-bangers! And me! is a must read book for all banger enthusiasts. US customers send $34.00 all color except for the oldest pictures (includes S/H in the U.S.A.), PayPal welcome, to:
    Jim Brierley, 39480 Colleen Way, Temecula, CA 92592.
    phone: 951-695-7313.

    Here is a list of most of the prior monthly banger meet links:

    Banger basics. another info link list:

    The link below shows flywheel lightening dimensions
    and this link shows the missing image from the above post

    The 4 Banger hot rod picture thread.

    Model B rod bearing insert numbers

    Engine tuning with a Vacuum gauge

    Adjusting dual Strombergs:

    Helpful Model A tools and tips:

    Gary in MN's late model Malory distributor conversion for A/B engine:

    Elrod's stuck head tech:

    Model A generator to alternator conversion:

    Gear ratio / speed and RPM calculator:

    Model A master cylinder mounting bracket ideas:

    Go here to read the 1931 edition of Harry Ricardo's book "The High Speed Internal Combustion Engine"

    Chevy Banger Stuff

    Post 198 starts a great discussion of the shape of a flat head combustion chamber

    T-5 5 speed in a Torque Tube:

    New Banger Block in the Works

    Model A & B Style Cast Iron Cylinder Head Compression Ratios.
    Last edited: May 29, 2019
  2. denis4x4
    Joined: Apr 23, 2005
    Posts: 3,490

    from Colorado

    Next project is to balance the front drums/wheels as a complete assembly. Fortunately, neighbor has a Snap-On balancing machine.
    Jiminy and winduptoy like this.
  3. Dustyp489
    Joined: Feb 1, 2008
    Posts: 110


    checking in , hope to get the 31 on the road this month
    winduptoy likes this.
  4. winduptoy
    Joined: Feb 19, 2013
    Posts: 1,972


    you've got to be kidding, May already....
    Shutter Speed and Jet96 like this.
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  5. JT1930
    Joined: Jul 1, 2018
    Posts: 188


    Hello May. Here so soon.

  6. johnneilson
    Joined: Apr 12, 2011
    Posts: 1,097


    Damn, it was just February, wasn't it?
    HiSpoke, winduptoy and Jiminy like this.
  7. Binger
    Joined: Apr 28, 2008
    Posts: 1,655

    from wyoming

    It’s May and it’s snowing in Cheyoming! Nicer weather later this week. Only a month til the Dirt Drags.

    Sent from my iPhone using H.A.M.B.
    chriseakin and winduptoy like this.
  8. lake_harley
    Joined: Jun 4, 2017
    Posts: 950


    I hope this isn't inappropriate, but I copy and pasted what's in italics below from a post I made at the very end of April. Since we've turned another page on the calendar, and thinking it was unlikely that many would look back to previous months, I took the liberty of bringing it up again in this month's banger meet.

    While working on my '31 Coupe I've been kicking around the idea for another T roadster. One iteration would be a more "modern" approach, and the 2nd is quite traditional. For the traditional approach I'd dig out the Model A driveline that I didn't end up using in my '31 for various reasons that would be pointless to go into.

    In getting a Model A banger in shape I'd be facing either having mains and rods re-babbitted, or going to inserts on mains and possibly rods too. I'm hoping for a 55-60-ish HP banger in the end, so nothing wild at all. In considering the costs involved, it appears that it would be somewhat comparable to go either way, Babbitt or inserts. Most shops I've found that do re-babbitting are 5-6 hours or farther away from where I live in Southeast Missouri. I'm wondering if there's any reason that a local performance engine builder I know couldn't do the line boring necessary to do the insert conversion for the mains? It would save me a bunch of time and/or money in transporting parts to a rebuilder if the line boring is straightforward work and could be done locally.

    If I'm not mistaken Bert's has re-babbitted rods for about $60 each with no core charge, and that seems really reasonable compared to other pricing I've seen for either babbit or insert bearing rods while researching possibilities.

    Input is appreciated.

    winduptoy, Jiminy and JT1930 like this.
  9. Afternoon, if anyone has ever wondered if time travel is possible, I can attest that it is. Have a child. BAM. 2 years gone. Either way. Model T steering set up question, been a fan of A boxes, but thinking a cross steering set up. Do not want a Vega and I have a 'vair box, which I don't want to use. Buried in everyone's vaults of pictures and memories what is a good cross steering set up for a Model T. Planning on using the normal T tie rod and spindles + arms. Happy May.
    winduptoy and Dannerr like this.
  10. lake_harley
    Joined: Jun 4, 2017
    Posts: 950


    JT1930.....Your garage really says "Hot Rod". What a great looking space, and an upstairs to boot!

    JT1930 likes this.
  11. Johnny Nitro
    Joined: Sep 28, 2005
    Posts: 39

    Johnny Nitro
    from Chicago

    Have her out-n-about! After 5 years. Now, working out all the bugs, leaks, and rattles. Thanks to all for the wisdom, and knowledge on this board. You guys kept me going.

    Attached Files:

  12. V4F
    Joined: Aug 8, 2008
    Posts: 4,083

    from middle ca.

    john , as we get older time goes faster till the end !
  13. johnneilson
    Joined: Apr 12, 2011
    Posts: 1,097


    At this rate, the Coupe should be doing 9's in the 1/4!!!!!!
    Jet96 likes this.
  14. JT1930
    Joined: Jul 1, 2018
    Posts: 188


  15. V4F
    Joined: Aug 8, 2008
    Posts: 4,083

    from middle ca.

    john , not quite but I do have this on the back . best I can do ……… still cant find electrical problem ….. plaque.jpg
    lake_harley likes this.
  16. DOUG!

    You're still at it! Any gray hairs yet? Seriously...It's good to hear from you. Just keep working on that little future "wrencher"!
  17. Going to Buttonwillow Raceway this weekend to see if I can keep all these ancient parts going the same direction at the same time!

    32-John-Kerr-1932-Miller-Schofield-Ford.jpg {ATTACH=full]4271546[/ATTACH]
  18. winduptoy
    Joined: Feb 19, 2013
    Posts: 1,972


    If the engine I have has good babbitt...I run it, keeping an eye on clearances.
    If the babbitt is shot...inserts.
    I inserted the engine in the Cabriolet. The local machine shop was able to line bore it, I ordered new inserted rods.
    The trick is adequately dealing with the thrust. It takes some machine work in a mill to get it...automotive shops here don't do that kind of work. All the bearings come with machining instructions. It might take visits to a few different shops to find the shop with the set up to do it.
    I like the inserted engines I have...illustration....well in a verbal kind of way; The engine in the Cabby broke the front pulley at the slot for the key. Veed out a chunk that scooped the front seal material into the oil pan. The oil pump picked it up and it got constipated. Starved the bottom end for oil. I caught it just in time but the bearings were scored...but they were inserts. Polished the crank, installed new bearings all around and off to the races. If it had been babbitt, it would have been fatal. 55-60 ish HP is doable with a higher compression head and downdraft intake/carburetor.
    Hamtown Al, Dannerr and lake_harley like this.
  19. lake_harley
    Joined: Jun 4, 2017
    Posts: 950


    winduptoy.....Thanks for sharing your experience. It does make sense that with inserts once the conversion is done rebuilds or repairs become more "ordinary" by today's methods.

    I did come across one rebuilder's website that showed the insert conversion and machining instructions. At the time I read it, it wasn't with the intent of totally understanding it, but it seemed rather straightforward. Possible exception is making the provisions for crankshaft thrust. Seems I have read about two separate approaches to addressing the thrust issue, but I could be wrong. I guess I'll have to take Jim Brierley's 4-Banger book back into the "reading room".

    In case I move forward on the rebuild and if my engine builder friend isn't interested in taking on the project, any recommendations for a engine builder near St Louis MO to machine for inserts? I'm about 1.5 Hr. South of St. Louis and 3 Hours from Memphis, TN. I had a nice conversation with Piranio Antique Auto in Texas. They're about 10 hours away but I was impressed by the way he talked and treated me on the phone and that means a lot. I'm also aware of a builder in Skokie (?) Il. but they're still about 6 Hrs. away, and another was about 5 Hrs. away in Indiana.

    If someone wants to make a engine builder/machine shop recommendation but doesn't want to go public with it, please send me a PM.


    winduptoy likes this.
  20. surf10
    Joined: Jul 16, 2013
    Posts: 42


    Just checking in. The RPU is heading along to have its repair certification signed off this week.

    One step closer to being on the road....
  21. callcoy
    Joined: Aug 31, 2008
    Posts: 132

    from Nashville

    With your location , you are between several very capable shops that can do insert line boring and Babbitt. To line bore for inserts you must also provide for thrust "washers" because modern shell bearings do not have any provision for thrust for this I.D. bearing. This takes special understanding of the process, the correct materials and the tooling to do so. I personally would not trust this to anyone who doesn't have a good track record in installing inserts into a A or B block. Shops nearest to you that I know of are very qualified to do both types of work, are Kohnke Rebabbiting in Clare Iowa, Dennis Parinio Denton TX, Jim Taylor Taylor Made Engines New Braunfels TX and Antique Engine Rebuilders Skokie IL. There may be others out there near you, but I am not aware of them. You will have to crate up your engine and ship it to them, some may a connection with a trucking firm that will; save you some money.

    Do not ship a engine that that has not been pressure tested, I know of cases where Mag'd blocks failed the pressure test. I have a block from the Left Coast that was rebuilt and once completed and running was full of cracks, quote to save the block was $1700.00. I can use this block but it will never run again as a flat head.
  22. hardtimesainit
    Joined: Jan 24, 2009
    Posts: 329


    Hey Lynn,
    Great rep and does mild to whatever you pay for, inserted.
  23. Shutter Speed
    Joined: Feb 2, 2017
    Posts: 816

    Shutter Speed

    @JT1930, are you sayin the b+w shot is from '61, or the garage was built then ?

    I'm confused, typically.

    JT1930 likes this.
  24. Question for those in the know...

    Stock rebuilt banger with a "B" police head, going in a pre-war full-fendered Tudor...

    Pick a carb...Zenith A/B, Tillotson X, or Marvel/Schebler...

    I'm not after a points-hoarding show restoration, just a cool pre-war gow!
    Dannerr likes this.
  25. JT1930
    Joined: Jul 1, 2018
    Posts: 188


    @Shutter Speed the garage was built in 1961.

    That would be really cool if it was a shot from the 50/60s
  26. railcarmover
    Joined: Apr 30, 2017
    Posts: 401


    Grade 2 babbit in modified flathead engine good.Inserts good too,provided you full flow filtrate the oil.One thing about babbit,if it fails the component it bears is usually saveable,with inserts the component suffers from contact with the inserts backing.


    Body time..not too bad,a few spots need attention,should only take 10000 hours or so..
    JT1930 and Jet96 like this.
  27. johnneilson
    Joined: Apr 12, 2011
    Posts: 1,097


    A couple thoughts on bottom ends, motor, not yours.

    If intending to drive the car at higher speeds, you are going to need to have the bearings pressure fed oil.
    This can be done with babbit or inserts. Make sure to use a good filter and filter the oil on the direct feeds. Do not rely on the recirculating oil in the pan filters.
    Now comes the subject of rod bearings, here again, IMHO, must be pressure fed. This is accomplished by cross drilling the crank and closing off the dippers in the rods. The "A" crank is not large enough to drill and retain much strength, sorry, just too wimpy. The solution is to use a "B" or "C" crank and rods. The mains are reduced in size, to fit between the "A" block main bolts but not to original "A" dimensions. There are bearing inserts available to accomplish this. Or the main bolts can be moved out and away to fit the larger crank.
    Making the thrust is going to be some machining, not bad but most automotive machine shops will not be willing to undertake this, including the larger mains.
    In any event, this will not be easy. Crating up your parts will be much easier than trying to get some local shop not familiar with this to do this work.
    While some folks believe that good "B" blocks are impossible to find, not necessarily true.
    And remember this, just because a block has been magnafluxed, it is not good unless it passes the inspection.
    Most aviation inspections are not familiar with where the Model "A/B" blocks crack.

    OK, enough for now, John
  28. winduptoy
    Joined: Feb 19, 2013
    Posts: 1,972


    B Zenith
    Dannerr likes this.
  29. chriseakin
    Joined: Jan 21, 2009
    Posts: 335


    Snowing over Alberta too. Sucks big time but at least there aren't any tornadoes yet.
  30. 25mercury
    Joined: Aug 14, 2010
    Posts: 68

    from California


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