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Hot Rods Mating "Iron Duke" 151 to Powerglide

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by lake_harley, Sep 8, 2017.

  1. lake_harley
    Joined: Jun 4, 2017
    Posts: 1,499

    lake_harley
    Member

    I'm considering putting a 151 cubic inch Chevy 4 cylinder from a Chevy Monza into my 31 Ford Coupe. I have a aluminum Powerglide that I'd consider using with it. Problem is mating the two together. The crank hub on the 4 cylinder is a very small bolt pattern. The manual transmission flywheel that was on the engine is a 153 tooth like a lot of SBC engines used, but the crank hub is a lot different (smaller) and is about flush with the back of the block.

    So many discussions of the "Iron Duke" turn into disputes, confusing the engine with the earlier 153" engine that was in Chevy II's etc. That engine was essentially a 6 cylinder with 2 cylinders chopped off and is not the same as the Iron Duke that was made by Pontiac (I believe) and was used in a variety of cars. Later versions of the Iron Duke block changed to a smaller V-6 bellhousing bolt pattern, but the engine I have is an older version that matches the "typical" SBC pattern.

    So....any experience with a Iron Duke and mating it to something like a Powerglide? Another option would be to find another 4-speed (Saginaw) like was originally on the engine, using the bellhousing, clutch and flywheel I have with the engine, or perhaps a T5 with a 10 spline input shaft. My interest in using the Powerglide is that I have one and it would be nice to make use of what I already have lurking under my workbench.

    Thanks, in advance.

    Lynn
     
  2. henryj1951
    Joined: Sep 23, 2012
    Posts: 2,304

    henryj1951
    Member
    from USA

    just gave away the 4speed yer looking for/shoulda made ya a trade.
     
  3. 56sedandelivery
    Joined: Nov 21, 2006
    Posts: 6,695

    56sedandelivery
    Member Emeritus

    Is it the torque converter locating bung that won't fit into the crank centering hole, there's not a flexplate that will bolt to the crankshaft, or the flexplate is't drilled for the Powerglide torque converter. Of all people to ask this question (ME!), but do you have any photos of what you're working with? I am Butch/56sedandelivery.
     
  4. buffaloracer
    Joined: Aug 22, 2004
    Posts: 806

    buffaloracer
    Member
    from kansas

    The one's that I have had came with a 350 or metric 200. Flex plates should be readily available. I don't think that you want to use a PG. It's like starting a 3 speed in 2nd gear.
    Just my $.02.
    Pete
     
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  5. lake_harley
    Joined: Jun 4, 2017
    Posts: 1,499

    lake_harley
    Member

    I would settle for a metric 200 transmission, as long as it is/was available with the "standard" SBC bellhousing pattern that ran forever. I agree the Powerglide gearing isn't going to be the best for getting the car moving, but part of my motivation is to use what I have if it could be practical. Maybe what I'm proposing will prove to be practically impossible (weak effort at a pun intended)

    There are flexplates that mate up to the crankshaft flange on the Iron Duke, but I believe the bolt circle for the converter attachment bolts is different. Then there's the unknown issue about forward/rearward spacing of the components as to if it would all fit together physically and the starter engage the flexplate properly.

    I live in a rather rural area so there aren't many hot rodders around to talk with and compare/share info. Many of those around would probably just use a 350/350 combo and be done with it. I like to do things not so "normal".

    Lynn
     
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  6. manyolcars
    Joined: Mar 30, 2001
    Posts: 8,504

    manyolcars

    The 151 I got for my other Model A has a chevy engine pattern bell housing that accepts a Ford pattern Transmission. This is a 83 Jeep engine
     
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  7. lake_harley
    Joined: Jun 4, 2017
    Posts: 1,499

    lake_harley
    Member

    Thanks, manyolcars. Are you pleased with the power of the 151 in the Model A? I'm guessing that's your coupe in your avatar, and does it have a 151? Stock engine or is it warmed up a bit?

    Lynn
     
  8. 56sedandelivery
    Joined: Nov 21, 2006
    Posts: 6,695

    56sedandelivery
    Member Emeritus

    The early Nova's/Chevy II's with the 153 4 cylinder were available with the Powerglide, so use your Powerglide if that's what you have/want to do. Just redrill the torque converter bolt pattern to fit the Iron Duke flexplate; it's the converter bung that centers everything, and that's been universal in size throughout the various GM makes/models . I agree that Powerglides are boring on the street (and I build them fairly frequently), but it is the lightest automatic transmission available. I don't know if an Iron Duke 151 could/would pull the overdrive of a 200R4, without just laying down. You could also use a TH250 (lightweight version of a TH350), or a metric TH200 (the Stock and Super Stock drag racers are using these after modified). I am Butch/56sedandelivery.
     
  9. I realize that you didn't ask me but my AVATAR has a 181 cubic inch Mercruiser Marine (the big Chevy II) mated to a '39 Ford transmission and I am happy with the power. As far as this thread goes I think I would dump the power glide and use the transmission designed for the Iron Duke. If I went stick I would use a '39 trans and the original Model A rear end.

    Charlie Stephens
     
  10. MrMike
    Joined: May 21, 2010
    Posts: 138

    MrMike
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Putting a 153 from a postal jeep into my A ,I drove the Jeep with a Powerglide before the engine was pulled, the weights are similar , the response was boring so my A now has a 5 speed, also drove a Monza 151 with a 3 speed auto, after that ride I would never run an auto behind these engines unless there was no other choice.
     
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  11. lake_harley
    Joined: Jun 4, 2017
    Posts: 1,499

    lake_harley
    Member

    Pretty strong argument for a manual transmission.........

    Lynn
     
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  12. Mr48chev
    Joined: Dec 28, 2007
    Posts: 29,795

    Mr48chev
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I used to drive my Cousin's Pontiac Astre with one of those engines and a 5 speed in it once in a while and that little bugger went pretty dog gone good. If I was going automatic I think the suggestion of the metric 200 makes a lot more sense than the powerglide even if you already have the glide. Those engines need the extra gears to stay in the power band.
     
  13. sunbeam
    Joined: Oct 22, 2010
    Posts: 5,296

    sunbeam
    Member

    Jeep used a 904 behind the iron duke I like shifting gears I'd go with the t5
     
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  14. lake_harley
    Joined: Jun 4, 2017
    Posts: 1,499

    lake_harley
    Member

    I've been looking some on craigslist etc. for a T-5 but typically they have a 14 spline shaft if it has a bolt pattern that would appear to be like Saginaw, Borg Warner and Muncie to bolt up to my (Monza) bellhousing. Those have been noted as being for/from a S-10 Chevy donor. The others that I've seen are 20-something spline and have what I suppose is a "Ford" bolt pattern. Maybe I should just be patient and find someone who has a complete flywheel, clutch and disc, and transmission that I know would work together? Or, are there 10-spline input shaft versions of T-5 transmissions that I just have yet to find?

    Thanks for all the help and suggestions.

    Lynn
     
  15. lake_harley
    Joined: Jun 4, 2017
    Posts: 1,499

    lake_harley
    Member

    Today out of curiosity I finally dug out the torque converter for the Powerglide I have been considering using with the Iron Duke. I wanted to measure the "button" on the converter that centers in the crankshaft. It turns out the torque converter "button" is 1.700" and the recess that held the pilot bushing for the 4-speed that was on the Iron Duke crankshaft I have is only 1.500". So, it appears that without some machine work the Iron Duke and the Powerglide just aren't meant for each other.

    Along with looking for a T5, 4-speed or non-electric automatic, I'm expanding my search to include a wrecked S-10 with either a 4-cylinder or a 4.3L V-6 and either auto or manual transmission. I'd also consider a S-10 with a blown engine. The S-10 rearend would probably work really well in my '31 Ford Coupe too, since I understand they're about 54" wide in the 2WD version. If anything, it might be a tick too narrow to be "ideal", but that can be addressed with wheel backspacing and/or wheel spacers. If anyone knows of such a donor near Southeast Missouri, please let me know.

    Thanks

    Lynn
     
  16. raven
    Joined: Aug 19, 2002
    Posts: 4,618

    raven
    Member

    You want the 4x4 version of the S-10 rear end for proper width and better gears. Most people don't realize they can mix and match pressure plates and clutch discs to meet their needs. Get the clutch disc to fit your tyranny spline count and the right diameter for your pressure plate. Your combination is not all that hard to successfully complete and it will be a good set up for your coupe. 5 speeds rule in these light cars.
    r
     
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  17. nickleone
    Joined: Jun 14, 2007
    Posts: 349

    nickleone
    Member

    Every thing I read on the T5 says 10 spline input.
    There were "CHEVY" pattern T5s early in their life.
    The Camaro T5s were tilted to the passenger side if I remember correctly.
    If you find a 10 spline clutch the right size for the pressure plate and flywheel you can use the T5 throw out bearing. You might need to modify
    the fork. My local Denver CO pull and pay charges $125 for a T5.

    Nick
     
  18. nickleone
    Joined: Jun 14, 2007
    Posts: 349

    nickleone
    Member

    FYI T5 info:
    There are 2 basic kinds of T5 5 speeds. Non World Class ( NWC ) and World Class ( WC ). The T5 is an evolution of the Borg Warner SR4 4speed. The SR4 was a lightweight design, ball bearing and needle bearing counter gear box using bronze synchro rings. The T4 was an improvment of this design, using tapered input and output shaft bearings combined with a drawn cup roller bearing countergear. The T5 NWC was a T4 with an added 5th gear.

    NWC T5's were issued in 1982. First applications were in S-10 Blazers. By 1983 Ford started using them in the Mustang, GM had them in the F body Camaro and Firebird Cars, AMC had them in the Eagle and Jeep lines. AMC dropped the T5 by 1985 to make room for cheaper Peugeot and Toyota boxes. By late 1985 the first WC boxes were used by Ford. The WC boxes had 1st, 2nd, and 3rd speed gears riding on roller bearings instead of solid shafts. The countergears saw an upgrade to tapered bearings. The bronze synchro rings were replaced by fiber lined rings and dual cone designed rings to improve ring surface area. GM started using WC boxes as early as 1988 in the Camaro / Firebird line but still kept NWC boxes in S-10's and Astro Vans. By the mid 1990's most of the GM T5 installations were all World Class.

    Nick
     
  19. nickleone
    Joined: Jun 14, 2007
    Posts: 349

    nickleone
    Member

  20. lake_harley
    Joined: Jun 4, 2017
    Posts: 1,499

    lake_harley
    Member

    nickleone....thanks for the input and the link to the T5 info webpage. It'll probably take me a couple read-throughs to absorb what will and won't work together.

    Thanks

    Lynn
     
  21. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 18,503

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    The T5 from an S10 will work, you just need a clutch disc with the same diameter as the Monza one, with the spline count and diameter as the T5. Minor trimming might need to be done to the input shaft, as they are a little longer than most. Some use a spacer instead. Either way works.

    A Non-World-Class (NWC) T5, like those found in a pre-electronic 4-cylinder S10 (don't use one from 1993 or later), will be just fine behind a 151 or 153.

    I think your clutch is/was 9-1/8", but you should verify.

    If that is indeed the case, Bob's your uncle: https://www.summitracing.com/search/part-type/clutch-discs?sortby=Default&sortorder=Ascending&N=4294924985+4294925001+4294873325

    If not, let me know what the diameter is, and I will find you an application.
     
  22. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 18,503

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    My go-to S10 T5 has the tag number 1352-145. It has the higher of the two gear sets found in these.

    I put them in everything. I even had one behind the Ford 144 in my Falcon, for a while.
    20130601_134321.jpg
    I even just sold one today, to a guy who is putting it behind a flathead. They are very versatile.
     
  23. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 18,503

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    If you are T5 shopping, make sure that you know what you are looking at. There was a T4. Some T4 parts carried forward, and interchange with the T5. The part prefix on a T4 is 1351. On a T5 it is 1352. On a "real" OEM T4, you will not find any markings that start with 1352. On a pre-1993 T5, you will find both 1351 and 1352 markings.

    On a T4, the ID decal is BLUE and white. On a T5, it is GREEN and white. Both of those decals are on the top cover, and that cover will have a 1351 marking in both instances. The number on that decal has a suffix, which indicates the application. For my favorite, the suffix is 145, so you would see 1352-145.
    IMG_20170912_161639.jpg
    [​IMG]
    T4's normally do not have the bump on the tail housing that is to clear 5th; however, I have discovered that you can successfully put a T5 tail housing on a T4 (someone tried to swindle me). I can find no indication that Borg Warner did this, just rebuilders (and criminals). If the main case does not have a 1352 part number, it is not a T5!

    There was, from the factory, also a metal tag under one of the bolts that holds on the tail housing.
    IMG_20170912_161708.jpg
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2017
  24. Six Ball
    Joined: Oct 8, 2007
    Posts: 4,179

    Six Ball
    Member
    from Nevada

    I have a 151 from an early '80s Jeep YJ. The back of the block is Chevy pattern and the aluminum bell housing has a Ford trans pattern. I'm pretty sure a T-5 from a mustang would bolt right up.
     
  25. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 18,503

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    It will. If that bellhousing cannot be found, GM did put the later WC T5 (with the FORD pattern) on the 4.3L V6, which has the Chevy pattern on the block side.

    Shown here, next to a common bellhousing:
    [​IMG]
     
  26. lake_harley
    Joined: Jun 4, 2017
    Posts: 1,499

    lake_harley
    Member

    What a wealth of information!! I can't thank everyone enough for all of the guidance and tips to put together a good driveline for my '31. I feel somewhat lazy that someone else is having to take me by the hand through all of this, but then again, why re-invent the wheel? Thanks so much!

    I've put out some more "feelers" to friends who are car guys, so I'm hoping that someone's brother-in-law's best friend's uncle has what I'm looking for. :)

    Lynn
     
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  27. Six Ball
    Joined: Oct 8, 2007
    Posts: 4,179

    Six Ball
    Member
    from Nevada

    Check with Jeep people and Off Road sites. A lot of the 151s were pulled from Jeeps when big wheels were added. That is how I got mine. Those bell housings may just be laying around. If you use the Ford T-5 you may have to change the pilot bearing.
     
  28. David Luttrull
    Joined: Nov 11, 2015
    Posts: 29

    David Luttrull
    Member

    I recently purchased a 68 Camaro 250/6 and the powerglide that was in the car, wanting to use that trans behind a 151 I had picked up out of a 78 Monza, for a update into my 1926 Chevy Touring. After reading this thread, I got a bit concerned. Today, however, I pulled everything out, and examined them, put the flexplate from the 68 250/6 onto the 151 crank without problems, pulled the manual bushing out of the crank end, and test fit the powerglide converter. Everything went together just fine. I don't know if I got lucky with this combo, but if I did, it is a viable solution to the initial question.
     
  29. Why not just get a flex plate for your engine and bolt your tranny up? The Monza came with an auto as well as a standard transmission so finding a flex plate should not be a problem. You may have to go to an after market torque converter but that is no biggy, just call your favorite catalog speed shop and ask them for the proper torque converter.
     
  30. lake_harley
    Joined: Jun 4, 2017
    Posts: 1,499

    lake_harley
    Member

    David....I'm glad the two mated together with your combo of parts. I find it interesting, and puzzling, that the 250 flexplate fit the 151's crank flange. I don't kow the year for sure of the Monza I got the 151 out of, but I would think it was really close to the '78 that you used. In any case, the bolt pattern of my 151 was way too small to fit a "typical" 153-tooth flexplate like I suppose you have from the '68 Camaro.

    porknbeaner.....My problem was "solved", sort of. I took my 151 block and head to a friend's machine shop. He hot-tanked the parts and checked for cracks and let's just say his crack-check equipment still works. :( I ended up buying a '88 S-10 Pickup for it's 151/T5 combo and the nice, narrow rear end, and may go that route. The pickup has already been stripped of most of the parts I desired.

    Another brainstorm came to me as well and that I might take a more "traditional" approach to my '31 Coupe instead of the "Iron Duke" approach. I will be visiting with another friend who collected parts, pieces and cars most of his life. I want to see if he has the parts and pieces to do a 59AB Flathead with a post-'39 transmission in the A. Will also be checking with him to do hydraulic brakes too. I'm optimistic that with some digging we can drag the needed parts from the dark corners of their current hiding places.

    Lynn
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2017

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