Register now to get rid of these ads!

Technical ***March 2021 Banger Meet Thread - Equinox Sacrifice For Bangers***

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by Jiminy, Mar 1, 2021.

  1. I'm familiar with the early 28AR crossmember, I had one in a 28 bastard tub I was building.
    I'm more searching for what people have done for making their own engine mount. This isn't an A chassis, so an A crossmember wont fit as easy as I want it to.
     
  2. guitarguy
    Joined: May 26, 2008
    Posts: 505

    guitarguy
    Member

    @Retson the Racer , here is @David Mazza engine mount he came up with. Pretty effective for mounting an A into a T. I'll leave it up to him if he wants to show more of what he did.

    Model A- Model T front mount.jpg
     
    Dustyp489, hotrodfil and winduptoy like this.
  3. studebakerjoe
    Joined: Jul 7, 2015
    Posts: 765

    studebakerjoe
    Member

    @Retson the Racer I mentioned it as something to look at for inspiration as to how to do it in your case.
     
    winduptoy likes this.
  4. fourd
    Joined: Jan 17, 2013
    Posts: 83

    fourd
    Member
    from Colorado

    2E8299A2-12C9-4EE8-A921-B4A0913B89EB.jpeg 3C25ABBD-AA8D-4905-BD25-82456CF9F481.jpeg 8690585B-0BF3-43F7-A60F-E9919643D646.jpeg 5B1A7B52-3A37-471A-A041-995023CA6DA5.jpeg Howdy Guys,
    Anyone have experience with running an early Mallory vacuum advance distributor?
    Where does the vacuum draw from, above or below the throttle plates?
    What I have and would consider using:
    I have a single Stromberg 97 carb (I have 94's too, early and late), a base plate plate with a vacuum line that sits below the carb. I also have a 97 EE carb base with what looks like drilled line above one of the throttle plates. The distributor is a very nice condition early Mallory and the mechanism looks like a brake on the lower plate that would release under some change in vacuum I assume.
     
    Jet96 likes this.
  5. winduptoy
    Joined: Feb 19, 2013
    Posts: 2,343

    winduptoy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Nice stuff there Martin...
    I say manifold....
    https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/ported-vacuum-or-manifold-vacuum-to-dist.1019838/
    https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/vacuum-advance-to-manifold-vacuum.810747/
    https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/ported-or-manifold-vacuum.314524/
    Now, to the widely-misunderstood manifold-vs.-ported vacuum aberration. After 30-40 years of controlling vacuum advance with full manifold vacuum, along came emissions requirements, years before catalytic converter technology had been developed, and all manner of crude band-aid systems were developed to try and reduce hydrocarbons and oxides of nitrogen in the exhaust stream. One of these band-aids was "ported spark", which moved the vacuum pickup orifice in the carburetor venturi from below the throttle plate (where it was exposed to full manifold vacuum at idle) to above the throttle plate, where it saw no manifold vacuum at all at idle. This meant the vacuum advance was inoperative at idle (retarding spark timing from its optimum value), and these applications also had VERY low initial static timing (usually 4 degrees or less, and some actually were set at 2 degrees AFTER TDC). This was done in order to increase exhaust gas temperature (due to "lighting the fire late") to improve the effectiveness of the "afterburning" of hydrocarbons by the air injected into the exhaust manifolds by the A.I.R. system; as a result, these engines ran like crap, and an enormous amount of wasted heat energy was transferred through the exhaust port walls into the coolant, causing them to run hot at idle - cylinder pressure fell off, engine temperatures went up, combustion efficiency went down the drain, and fuel economy went down with it.
    Courtesy John Hinckley
    Retired GM/Chrysler Engineer
     
    fourd, Old Dawg and Jet96 like this.
  6. Jet96
    Joined: Dec 24, 2012
    Posts: 1,254

    Jet96
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from WY

    @fourd that's a cool distributor. Apparently it uses a similar system as the crab distributors?
     
    fourd likes this.
  7. fourd
    Joined: Jan 17, 2013
    Posts: 83

    fourd
    Member
    from Colorado

    Thanks Winduptoy,! I had found one of the threads you posted and it gave me a headache.
    That avitar you got there.:D
     
    Jet96 likes this.
  8. fourd
    Joined: Jan 17, 2013
    Posts: 83

    fourd
    Member
    from Colorado

    I am not sure but will research.
     
  9. Fabber McGee
    Joined: Nov 22, 2013
    Posts: 990

    Fabber McGee
    Member

    Vavuum (Medium).jpg

    This is a picture I pulled from the internet that is very much like the ones in the auto shop text books we used in the mid/late 60s, long before emissions regulations.
    In a relatively stock engine that makes good vacuum at idle and small amounts of throttle opening vacuum advance is used to bring in some additional timing at times of low speed and low load to improve engine torque. Driving around town, or in parking lots, etc. the engine needs more timing to produce power when you are barely opening the throttle, before 1500 or so when the centrifugal advance comes into play.
    If you accelerate a little to change lanes, etc. you rev the engine enough to bring in the centrifugal advance and don't need vacuum advance any longer.

    By having the vacuum port slightly above the throttle plate at idle you get timing that is retarded enough to start easily and idle smoothly. When you open the throttle slightly for normal driving in traffic you get 10 or 15 degrees more timing to keep the engine from falling on it's nose. As you open the throttle further the point of highest vacuum moves higher up the bore of the carb and the vacuum port no longer pulls on the vacuum diaphragm, but by then the centrifugal advance is taking over and you don't want or need that extra advance provided by the vacuum system.
    Emissions regulations of the 70s had the engineers coming up with all sorts of vacuum advance brainstorms, sometimes including vacuum retard. Thankfully, computers evolved enough to stop all that witchcraft and make a usable clean burning engine.

    Put in a cam for drag racing that won't idle or make much vacuum below 1500 rpm and you may as well hook up manifold vacuum to the distributor because the throttle plates will be open so far to make the engine run (not really idling) that the vacuum port already has lost it's effectiveness.

    I may still have one of those old books, I'll look.
     
    fourd and rwrj like this.
  10. RussTee
    Joined: Mar 25, 2008
    Posts: 1,214

    RussTee
    Member

    Not only was the model T motor and to an extent the model A motor solid mounted but they were by design pat of the chassis. Therefore a stock T or model A chassis should be beefed up for a non solid mounted motor. I dont think I would ever use a stock model T chassis without major reworking I think it far safer to build a custom made chassis.
     
    Retson the Racer likes this.
  11. This isn't necessarily a stock T chassis. It was originally owned by Joe Gemsa in the 70's. Here's what the frame looks like.
    Screen Shot 2021-03-11 at 11.54.43 AM.png
     
  12. RussTee
    Joined: Mar 25, 2008
    Posts: 1,214

    RussTee
    Member

    Certainly not stock but still looks like it may be set up to use the engine as part of the chassis. Joe was a clever guy but nowdays if street driven I would like to see a K member ect put in there I think a short search will bring up a modern style of chassis and even a search of the stock model T chassis will show how the Henry three point suspension differs from a modern unit. I see many people try and use a T chassis and box it. Thats a waste of time unless you are building a static museum piece. We have modern box section good welders and proven tech that will give you a cheaper better job in the long run. You can box and modify a model A or later chassis but I would be very careful using a T chassis for road use it will probably cost you a lot of money and not give you the safest resaults in the long run unless it a show only restoration. Look at the lifespan of an oldtime board track racer probably a couple of meets with parts plentiful and cheap nowdays obtain good advise safety first save money and build a car that lasts is enjoyable and stay with the hobby for a long time.
     
    Old Dawg and Shutter Speed like this.
  13. 97
    Joined: May 18, 2005
    Posts: 1,707

    97
    Member

    Talking about flex
     
    Jet96 and Old Dawg like this.
  14. RussTee
    Joined: Mar 25, 2008
    Posts: 1,214

    RussTee
    Member

    Thank you 97 This shows the motor (solid) holding the chassis flat while the cross spring does its thing. Imagine the strain on special Ford steel another reason to be careful welding on a T chassis.
     
  15. guitarguy
    Joined: May 26, 2008
    Posts: 505

    guitarguy
    Member

    Took a day off work this week while it got warm out around here. Cleaned with mineral spirits then acetone, masked and painted the block with some self etch primer then Duplicolor Ford semi gloss black.

    I just have to make a pushrod guide and I can then start assembly of the engine. Still a ton of oiling system to hammer out the details on.

    Speedster project 342.1.jpg

    Speedster project 343.1.jpg
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2021
  16. Instagram saw it first!! Love it, what head to you plan on running?
     
    Old Dawg likes this.
  17. guitarguy
    Joined: May 26, 2008
    Posts: 505

    guitarguy
    Member

    The Fronty T head somewhere further back on my post

    HaHa, I just realized I didn't put this in my own thread. I'll put it there too. Im such a bonehead.

    Yeah, I tend to post on Instagram first, but the more detailed posts come to the HAMB. I'm @stringsandsteel on Instagram if anyone wishes to follow, I post this, and guitar related stuff. Hence the name.
     
    Jet96 and Old Dawg like this.
  18. guitarguy
    Joined: May 26, 2008
    Posts: 505

    guitarguy
    Member

    I'm guessing judging by the mounts in the center of the chassis, that chassis was set up for running a Model A bellhousing, or more likely in Gemsa's case, a Fronty style oil pan/flywheel housing.
     
  19. I'm honestly not too sure. I know the frame came from this car. It's been passed around a few times. barn-find-1960s-hot-rod-3.png
     
    J.Ukrop, Jet96, Old Dawg and 2 others like this.
  20. 25mercury
    Joined: Aug 14, 2010
    Posts: 71

    25mercury
    Member
    from California

    Gemsa made his own deep aluminum oil pan. fullsizeoutput_1343.jpeg
     
    Jet96, Old Dawg, Dustyp489 and 3 others like this.
  21. guitarguy
    Joined: May 26, 2008
    Posts: 505

    guitarguy
    Member

    If @Retson the Racer has the frame, it's really too bad that car wasn't still in one piece! Very cool, something I haven't seen before.
     
  22. hardtimesainit
    Joined: Jan 24, 2009
    Posts: 457

    hardtimesainit
    Member

    This type of aluminum ‘two piece’ oil pan was first made by Rutherford. I have one on my (D) engine. Mine is a clone of original Rutherford.
    Im not aware of a Gemsa originally made pan, or of any other original alum pan maker. However, I am aware of others who copied the Rutherford pan
     
    Old Dawg, Dustyp489 and guitarguy like this.
  23. johnneilson
    Joined: Apr 12, 2011
    Posts: 1,255

    johnneilson
    Member

    That may not be a two pc pan
    It looks like a girdle and pan

    J
     
    Old Dawg likes this.
  24. hardtimesainit
    Joined: Jan 24, 2009
    Posts: 457

    hardtimesainit
    Member

    Hey John,
    If it comes up, here’s a pic of two piece pan.
    Looks identical to me, even with my CVS glasses , as those loong vertical ‘tube like’
    features are for the very long bolts that attach bottom pan to top half.
    Your probably right tho.
     

    Attached Files:

    burl, Old Dawg and guitarguy like this.
  25. WOW!! Do you own a polishing business?
    upload_2021-3-13_18-11-5.png
     
    guitarguy likes this.
  26. johnneilson
    Joined: Apr 12, 2011
    Posts: 1,255

    johnneilson
    Member

    Could be
    The pic is hard to see but I do see the bolt bosses
    Why make it two pieces? Is that so when a rod exits it is easier to fix?
    When is the polished motor going into a car
    J
     
    Old Dawg and winduptoy like this.
  27. Tribalmonkey
    Joined: Feb 17, 2019
    Posts: 491

    Tribalmonkey
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Checking in from Maryland. Been having a blast now that I am back on the road. IMG_5434.JPG


    Sent from my iPhone using H.A.M.B.
     
  28. hardtimesainit
    Joined: Jan 24, 2009
    Posts: 457

    hardtimesainit
    Member

    Hey John,
    ‘bosses’...thanks. I’m losinit , so couldn't think
    of word.
    Why 2 piece..... well my guess is that it looks COOL....ha.
    Well, if a guy wants to check on any (suspected) condition down there, that lower pan comes down and back on, lots easier than messing with whole pan.... including resealing against leaks with upper pan.
    R&R oil pump; cleaning junk out of pan; retorquing rods/mains...lots of fun things with just bottom half off.
    As far as... what to do with upon final assembly, great question. Frankly, I don't know. Reality is....My problems aren't getting better, and I don't have a ride to put it in. A bud came by and suggested (don't laugh) that I make a table, you know the one with the thick plastic top ! Hey...I can see it... in front of TV..lol
    Be the fastest stationary table in the record books , eh !!
     
    Old Dawg likes this.
  29. railcarmover
    Joined: Apr 30, 2017
    Posts: 586

    railcarmover

    The ported advance design stripped the exhaust byproducts from the upper cylinder during deceleration or peak vacuum events trying to achieve a clean burn. Running straight mechanical advance 'fattens' the exhaust gasses during deceleration..one effect of this is upper cylinder lubrication. Another effect is something I miss from the old days, the smell of exhaust from regular leaded gasoline. Drove the junk to the shop to show it off to the brothers and one the young guns says 'she's running rich, I can smell it'. I smiled and explained to him that's the essence of the gods, and how the smells of years ago are gone now,when the pungent scent of 600w and the exhaust smell from golden gasoline filled the air...He a gave me the 'old man eyeroll' like I was talking out my ass....kids,they dont know what they are missing..
     
    97, G Baese, Old Dawg and 1 other person like this.
  30. Dustyp489
    Joined: Feb 1, 2008
    Posts: 134

    Dustyp489
    Member

    Great looking
     
    Tribalmonkey likes this.

Share This Page

Register now to get rid of these ads!

Archive

Copyright © 1995-2021 The Jalopy Journal: Steal our stuff, we'll kick your teeth in. Terms of Service. Privacy Policy.

Atomic Industry
Forum software by XenForo™ ©2010-2014 XenForo Ltd.