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Technical ***March 2018 Banger Meet - Equinox Time***

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by Jiminy, Feb 28, 2018.

  1. MJW
    Joined: Jun 29, 2006
    Posts: 401

    MJW
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from NJ
    1. PA. NJ. local HAMBERS group

    Here is what I did for the Phaeton for the TROG as I was running out of time but was pretty comfortable. Plywood, foam and Sunbrella fabric. I have used the middle seat from a 90's minivan that was real comfortable in previous cars.
     

    Attached Files:

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  2. Bluto
    Joined: Feb 15, 2005
    Posts: 5,113

    Bluto
    Member Emeritus

    IF LOOK HARD ENOUGH YOU CAN FIND OLD HELMS... THIS "MAN CAVE" CRAZE AS POPPED PRICES UP STUPIT. I STILL SEE HELM HERE FOR US$20

    THERE ARE REPLICAS FOR A COUPLE HUNDRED. IT JUST LIKE A LOT OF THINGS ON MY LIST... IF THEY ARE NICE AND IN GOOD CONDITION I BUY THEM ... THE ONE IN THAT PHOTO WAS NOS WHEN I GOT IT 35 YEARS AGO.

    IT'S NEVER "WHAT DO THEY GO FOR?" IT'S WHAT YOUR WILLING TO PAY... AND MY HELMS .... I DON'T SELL. I WOULD SUGGEST YOU TRY EBAY AND IF YOU SEE SOMETHING YOU LIKE GET IT. I HAVE NO DOUBLES ... HAD TWO YUPPIES TRY TO BUY MY 39 GMC ONCE SADAM'S SON'S TRIED TO BUY MY T-HEAD MERCER WHILE I WAS IN SINGAPORE ONCE.... SAME ANSWER TO BOTH GROUPS..."NOT FOR SALE" WHEN PEOPLE PUSH I GET FAR LARGER AND EXPLAIN "YOU CAN'T AFFORD IT"
    YOU SHOULD LOOK AND FIND YOUR OWN..... THEN YOU HAVE A STORY TO GO WITH IT WHEN SOMEONE ASKS..... MAYBE YOU'LL OWN A LOT OF GOOD STORIES OVER THE YEARS.

    I CAN TELL YOU THE QUICKEST WAY TO LOOSE ANY STORY IS "HOW MUCH IS THAT?" WHERE DID YOU FIND THAT OR WHAT IS THE HISTORY MIGHT GET YOU SOMETHING FAR FASTER AND CHEAPER THAN SEARS....

    REALLY TRY EBAY GERMANY UNDER "BRAIN BUCKET"

    ENJOY THE HOLIDAY GUYS!

     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2018
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  3. Found this cute little guy, he looks super surprised we found his hiding spot. [​IMG]


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  4. Crazydaddyo
    Joined: Apr 6, 2008
    Posts: 3,178

    Crazydaddyo
    Member

    Is this an Xray scan of a Rajo or Fronty head?

    .
     
  5. 2 in 3 out, not a Rajo. Not a Fronty either...it is that slightly less common third variety! That intake chamber has about as much shape as a wedge of cheese, valves have excellent shrouding on about 25%, butted up nicely against a straight wall. All kinds of space everywhere in there, port velocity was not much of a concern with non-overlapping cams. The exhaust ports look like sausages. So much to learn!




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  6. Crazydaddyo
    Joined: Apr 6, 2008
    Posts: 3,178

    Crazydaddyo
    Member

    So is that a 3 port Olds head?
    Are you thinking of a pop up piston with a shape of some sort to increase burn efficiency?

    .
     
  7. Bluto
    Joined: Feb 15, 2005
    Posts: 5,113

    Bluto
    Member Emeritus

    I WAS DIGGING-ROUND MY PHOTOS AND FOUND THIS ONE

    IT SHOWS HOW MUCH THE CRANKCASE IS WITHOUT THE CAM, LIFTERS AND VALVES ON THE SIDE. THE LARGE PLATE CAST INTO THE BLOCK IS TO MAKE-UP THE DIFFERENCE. SO YOU CAN SEE HOW A NARROWER AND FAR STRONGER (MORE STABLE) CRANKCASE RESULTS. PLUS INCREASED MAIN WEB SIZE AND THE EXTRA COUPLE MAINS. HERE YOU CAN ALSO SEE THIS BLOCK ID PRE-HAL 5-MAIN AS THE REAR SEAL IS VERY DIFFERENT TO HAL'S 5 MAIN. THE HEAD IN THIS PHOTO IS AN EARLY HAL MODEL A VERSION ..USING THE SAME CAM COVER AS THE SINGLE CAM HAL HEAD

    5mW:hr copy.JPG

    I AM STILL SEARCHING FOR THE SCANS I GOT .. IF I FIND THEM PERHAPS I CAN GET THEM DIMENSIONED AND A FEW THINGS
    CORRECTED.

    REMEMBER THE REASON FOR ALL THIS IS TO CONFORM TO RULES HERE THAT ALL ENGINES IN THE CLASS MUST BE PRE-1932. YOU CAN'T RUN THE CLASS WITH A FORD "B" BLOCK

    THE HEAD IS NOW REPAIRED AND READY.


    DON'T EVER LET ANYONE TELL YOU THAT "RULES MAKE RACING CHEAPER"

     
    Old Dawg likes this.
  8. Morning!

    It is a Laurel-Roof “Liberty 8” head. Took it over to have it 3D scanned, mainly to see how much data could be gathered, which turned out to be a lot, mainly as the head has been milled to the water jackets, which enabled the scanning of most of the internals.

    The bit of the scan I posted, is a post scan “slice”. We cut the head in half inch intervals to see what data is available prior to “building” (modeling). It is really cool to be able to “see” all this.

    No clue how we are going to proceed, my initial feeling is just to make a stock one. Planning on the route of lost wax and investment casting, with the goal of taking some silicon molds along the way.

    The problem I run into, is once I start tweaking, where do I stop? It could look like this:

    1. Increase intake valve to 50% of piston surface area, decrease exhaust valve to 65% of intake valve surface area.

    2. Exhaust port clean up/shrink and add “D shape” and better angling for improved flow and cooling.

    3. Angle/move spark plug towards exhaust valve.

    4. Attack intake valve(s) chamber...

    5. The list gets very expansive very fast and farther and farther from what it is.

    I think the only real tweak will be to add pockets for hard valve seats to the casting and to relocate the rock arm bases to allow for the use of modern 1.5:1 ratio (off the shelf) rocker arms. Good cost saving measures down the road.

    There is no desire to make a run of these. I would almost rather spend my efforts on a hot flat motor or bringing the set of plans I have for the Miller DOHC head to life. Right now i am going to educate my self on modeling and CAM software.

    To your question about pistons, would probably find a modern one with some dish, like a 40/50HP Pope had in 1913, effectively an inverted hemi.

    Seeing as I am engaged in the activities of having a small child, there is plenty of time to think!

    All in all, just good fun.





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  9. What is always the biggest downfall of a t-a-b motor? Was just thinking... if lower end of motors were built similar to newer motors... would it being a flathead still hinder performance compared to an ohv? What kind of % more in hp or torque is gained using just the flathead head or ohv head?
     
  10. A number of years ago I watched a "Dyno Session" where they put two "B" blocks in secession on an engine Dynamometer. The flathead (I believe a Winfield) turned 147 h.p. @4700 r.p.m.. The OHV (I think made by Steve Serr) put up 153 h.p. @4700 r.pm. Frankly, I can't remember the Torque numbers which are just as important (maybe more); but, it seems to me that they were about the same percentage difference. Again, it depends on how much you want to risk in dollars and time (when sometimes things go BANG-CLANK-CLANK!).
     
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  11. That's what I was wondering . If the difference isn't that big... why the ohv? I mean they sure do look good and I wouldn't mind having one. So really, for the people looking for that extra bit, this makes the difference.
     
  12. Crazydaddyo
    Joined: Apr 6, 2008
    Posts: 3,178

    Crazydaddyo
    Member

    My experience:

    Flat head B engine described earlier in this thread probably the most you can do and still have a streetable high output flathead banger, three main stock crank and rods. @ 95hp more then twice stock hp. 10,000 + miles, no broken crankshafts.


    OHV B engine with a Rutherford crossflow 4 port head. Scat forged crank, H beam rods, full race cam, roller rockers, 1.75" intake valves, 1.60" exhaust valves, electronic distributor with centrifugal advance, 3 Stomberg 2 barrel carbs (1 ea 97 as Primary, 2ea. 81's as secondaries) @ 170+ hp very streetable, 2 broken crankshafts.


    Your results may vary.

    .
     
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  13. johnneilson
    Joined: Apr 12, 2011
    Posts: 1,165

    johnneilson
    Member

    I was about to say, 147hp from a Flathead Banger, sign me up, best I could get is about 120. 2 up 2 down standard port configuration. I think Nathan Stewart has been better than that.

    Yep, 3 bearing cranks give up about @ 150 hp.

    J
     
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  14. So the b motor is the best to work with. But, the b motor won't bolt to an "a" transmission correct?
     
  15. Crazydaddyo
    Joined: Apr 6, 2008
    Posts: 3,178

    Crazydaddyo
    Member

    You can bolt an A trans to a B block. You have to modify the B pan to work with the A flywheel housing, or modify an A pan to fit the B block and use an A flywheels housing. IMHO it is easier to modify the B pan.

    .
     
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  16. Crazydaddyo
    Joined: Apr 6, 2008
    Posts: 3,178

    Crazydaddyo
    Member

    As far as "bang" for the buck, If you keep the block and bottom end stock, the cheapest way to get to 100 hp is with an OHV. That is why you see so many in "stock " looking model A's. For @ $4,000 - $5,000 you can unbolt the stock head and bolt on a Riley 2 port, Miller/Cragar clone and double your H.P.

    Replicate what I did for a complete flat head build will be $10,000+ . Maybe more if you can't do the mods to the block and oiling system I did.

    Boy, now that I put it that way.....maybe I'm not all that smart after all!!!!

    .
     
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  17. So easy as that??? Just put an ohv and double. That seems like an easy route. As long as rest of stock motor is good of course. Might be a good route after all. It can only go up from there. And would already have the better than the flathead. Huh.. something to think about
     
  18. I see the riley head is not made anymore. What would be next suggestion for ohv heads?
     
  19. denis4x4
    Joined: Apr 23, 2005
    Posts: 3,549

    denis4x4
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Colorado

    Curious as to the difference between HP at the flywheel vs. rear wheels. The Zipper produced 60 HP at the rear wheels at 3600 RPM and the truck with the B and an original CRAGAR did 59 HP at the rear wheels at 3200 RPM. The engine in the Zipper is an A with a Brumfield super head. A9B7CDA0-B280-4EBA-A4F9-4A90BF0CD558.jpeg
     
  20. BigEd
    Joined: Aug 12, 2005
    Posts: 243

    BigEd
    Member

    I may have missed it, but what kind of water pump is that?
     
  21. Evening, earlier you mentioned something about how if you didn’t know or something about some post or somehow not in the know or somesuch. Either way, realized that the whole monthly banger thing is over 10 years old, 2006 doesn’t seem that far back. Either way, I would kindly suggest a bit of researching and reading in the past threads. Lots of know how.

    2 points of consideration:

    1. What is your budget.

    2. What is your budget and are you a whiney fuck.

    If you can answer number 1, while drinking a refreshing beverage with your feet up, have fun. Should number 2 bring sadness to your heart, tears to your eyes, chap your ass, or get the panties in a bunch...buy a SBC and be happy.

    All else being equal, enjoy!


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  22. V8 to A adapted kind?


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  23. denis4x4
    Joined: Apr 23, 2005
    Posts: 3,549

    denis4x4
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Colorado

    '36 V-8 with adapter. Block off for the A water pump has the temp sender.
     
  24. The thing is I've been back in the threads and getting conflicting information. Trying to decide who knows there stuff or talking out there ass. Figured I locked in with some people who know what there talking about so, I would ask questions. Mentioned back that I'm not looking for what everyone else has. (The sbc) I can see them at any car show. The 4 ... never. Nobody here has them. At the moment you guys are my best source for knowledge. One thing I'm confused about that keeps getting brought up... why do people keep bringing up a budget??? Really is there such a thing? Thanks for help so far guys.
     
  25. For 3 Grand you can build a 350 horse belly button. For 3 Grand you can build a 100 hp flat head v8. For 10,000 USD you can build a 150hp model A that might hang together. Money, pain tolerance, and humor are the 3 requirements for building a banger.

    Bangers are like ladies, I like a bit of curve and some fire; you like them bored, stoked and pumped up on 100 octane.

    Let’s be honest, if 4 holes are good, 8 is better. In my own smart ass way, just ask your self one thing: was Henry right?

    This place is a great spot for knowledge. Hell, when I first joined everyone thought Pomeroy was a pomade and the most important spec on a cam was the lift. Things change.

    We sure ain’t the brightest, but we sure are the stubbornest.

    I guess the worst part about this place is that you have to think. Thinking sucks, because it takes place in the void between your ear holes and no one else can see it happen. Much less believe.



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  26. johnneilson
    Joined: Apr 12, 2011
    Posts: 1,165

    johnneilson
    Member

    You will never spend so much money to go so slow.

    Words from prominent vintage motor builder.

    J
     
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  27. The truth always sounds better with fewer verbs and stuff.


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  28. BigEd
    Joined: Aug 12, 2005
    Posts: 243

    BigEd
    Member

    denis4x4,
    Thanks for the info on the water pump.
     
  29. johnneilson
    Joined: Apr 12, 2011
    Posts: 1,165

    johnneilson
    Member

    The truth about this is that if you are going to play with Banger motors you have to understand that the technology at the time these were designed was very limited.
    It is steam locomotive design, long stroke, big bore and poor fuel quality and understanding. It was the only way to get 40-50 HP from the available energy source. The design will only be able to produce so much power.
    It is a challenge and I enjoy that part of it.
    Not to mention that just surviving 80 plus years is a feat in itself. Add in backyard shade tree mechanics and you get the idea.
    Making HP is one part of the story, keeping them running is a choir in itself.

    J
     
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  30. Binger
    Joined: Apr 28, 2008
    Posts: 1,685

    Binger
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from wyoming

    52 Ford coe I guess you have to ask yourself what do you want to do with your roadster? Have you driven it around much as a stocker? My coupe has a stock motor with a stock head and some bolt on goodies and a t-5. It is loads of fun but isn’t fast. Would you be happy being able to cruise 60 mph? I am not a machinist like many of the impressive folks here so I am having an inserted counterbalanced engine built to go in the coupe next. It will have a 7:1 Winfield Head and a stipe cam. After driving around a stocker for a couple of years this upgrade will surprise me I think. Growing up being involved in AACA I got used to only going 35-50 in many of the restored cars so this is new set up is going to be a lot of fun for me. Hope to have it in the car for the dirt drags in June.


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