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Technical ***March 2017 Banger Meet - The Luck of the 4 Banger***

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by Jiminy, Feb 28, 2017.

  1. johnneilson
    Joined: Apr 12, 2011
    Posts: 1,166

    johnneilson
    Member

    Bluto,
    Yep, custom built cranks and proper rods make a huge difference.
    But not all of us can justify using this equipment. I have had a Friend break cranks, rods, blocks etc.
    He now admits that after the carnage, buying the best stuff up front would have been cheaper.
    Before I moved, I scrapped a Scat "B" crank that had been stroked and broken. The Friend who did that complained about the new cost of 5 bearing setup. Now he has not broken the motor but is having a time finding Zepher gear sets. And complaining about upgrading to a better trans.
    Back some years ago the overhead valve heads were a big improvement in power. Now with today's technology, there is more available power to have to transmit.

    John
     
  2. NielsK
    Joined: Jan 16, 2008
    Posts: 197

    NielsK
    Member
    from Denmark

    Dannerr likes this.
  3. RichFox
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 9,950

    RichFox
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I thought it might be a GMC
     
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  4. Bluto
    Joined: Feb 15, 2005
    Posts: 5,113

    Bluto
    Member Emeritus

    John

    Carroll was a very smart guy with equal humor to his intellect. Very approachable and always happy the share both.
     
  5. 28dreyer
    Joined: Jan 23, 2008
    Posts: 1,132

    28dreyer
    Member
    from Minnesota

    Exactly...most all flathead 6's were that way. The Continental used by Kaiser Frazer and others had 6 exhaust ports. I'm sure there were other exceptions.
     
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  6. youngrodder1929
    Joined: May 28, 2006
    Posts: 416

    youngrodder1929
    Member
    from Vancouver

    Going to run a ported 2 port speciality hp350 cam aluminum flywheel custom pop up pistons ect so I'm in this far is rather not bust a crank if I can help it lol

    Sent from my SM-J320W8 using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
  7. That would be great if I could find one. I read these comments regarding cranks and the expense of a good crank. I can see the need of all extra expense if you are running the lakes but after breaking a couple that were counterbalanced and drilled by one of the best I now think the cause to be over reving beyond what the 3 main crank will stand. "Juggler Joe" was quoted saying that he could get 7 to 10 races out of a welded B crank but the usual life of a C was 3 races. I have a 4.562 welded B and have had it bend quite a bit and had it straightened and it is still running BUT now I'm n longer going to all of the expense of drilling and counterbalancing cause in looking back at results I find the engine turns 3600 to 3750! RPM's I' speaking of hitting 8.6 at a hillclimb to 82 in the quarter ! This withe a repop al Winfield flat head
     
  8. Juggler should be Jiggler, can't find the edit button on this ipad


    Sent from my iPad using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
  9. johnneilson
    Joined: Apr 12, 2011
    Posts: 1,166

    johnneilson
    Member

    Completely understandable.
    Experience has shown that a C crank will lose the flywheel flange about 150 true HP.
    Welding it first will extend the range, not going to guess how far.
    I do know that some have put a stiff 5 bearing crank in the 3 main setup and it worked, again, not sure how much it can take. Dan McEachern makes bolts and caps that will take more, Joe/RotoFaze used to make a rear cap that was bullet proof.
    IMHO, you will be fine with the C crank under a two port head. They are not that efficient and you need to address the rods issue. Pontiac rods were good in their day, not true any more. Some guys get away with modified B rods, some use aftermarket ones. What ever you do, driving will mean being responsible, you are not going to buzz it past 5k very much.

    John
     
  10. youngrodder1929
    Joined: May 28, 2006
    Posts: 416

    youngrodder1929
    Member
    from Vancouver

    I appreciate the info ! I also have a set of caps from h and h (just the front 2) but not the rear one id be interested in getting on any info on them/ who else is building cranks
    thanks again
     
  11. RussTee
    Joined: Mar 25, 2008
    Posts: 1,208

    RussTee
    Member

    I also would be interested in who is building cranks many have told me my drilled Scat crank will be no good but most of those folks have never tried one and can offer no alternative is it another case of people reading a old book somewhere?
     
  12. I agree with John as to using a C crank in a 2 port engine. I do have such a set up, my original Riley 2 port has a C crank with Taylor Engine rods ( no longer available ) and if any of you remember the last FAST 66 hill climb before Jay passed, he ran the "sh t" out of the car. His version of slipping the clutch was to wind it up and slip his foot off of the clutch pedal ! Each pass he burnt more rubber and the top speed would be a little lower. I knew he was terminal so I let him enjoy himself. He would finish a run drop off the slip and ask if he could go again and I couldn't say no to him !! We lost a really good guy !! I guess I kinda got off subject but the engine is still running on the original inserts. And the crank was magnefluxed and is still sound.


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  13. Bluto
    Joined: Feb 15, 2005
    Posts: 5,113

    Bluto
    Member Emeritus

    Russ
    I've been lucky enough to know a lot of designers, builders, sponsors, winners
    Moldex in Detroit

    Bill
    One of my drivers understood redline but would waaaaay over run the engine backing down into the corners. One day the whole mess went bang. I built him a new engine and used the same main bearing set that were used in the first engine. These were old/used when I built the first engine for him. I bet it's still running those old/used mains.
    Just a thought, Thank you for reminding me.
     
  14. Stovebolt
    Joined: May 2, 2001
    Posts: 3,315

    Stovebolt
    Member

    Hi guys - back to play with banger again.

    top secret project ;) - suffice to say it'll be motor mule

    Can anyone tell me if a multi plate flywheel can be modified to suit a V8 clutch?

    Cheers
     
  15. johnneilson
    Joined: Apr 12, 2011
    Posts: 1,166

    johnneilson
    Member

    Russ,
    I had a broken Scat "B" crank here a couple years ago. The owner had also broken a Moldex crank, so I know either something is wrong or he is just abusing the heck out of them. He was not racing in any sanctioned events.
    As I see it, the only thing wrong with the Scat "B" crank are the rod throws are too small, "A" journals.
    Also, if you drill them for oiling, you are removing 8-9% of the material in cross section. This is not the case if you start with a "C" or "B" Ford crank.

    This not to say the Scat crank is no good, just be cautious of the small rod throw. BTW, I like the rods made for these a lot. If not racing, more than likely a good setup.

    OK, I have only been shopping 5 main cranks, but, Velasco, Moldex, Scat, Crower all can make them. I am sure there are more.

    John
     
  16. Dave's32insocal
    Joined: Mar 4, 2017
    Posts: 55

    Dave's32insocal
    Member

    Joe at Roto-Faze and is nephew John are still working the shop in Torrance,give them a call they might be able to help you,I've talked Joe to take his Coupe to the LA Roadster show!
     
  17. I have made my own main caps for both A and B engines setting them up with hollow dowels to hold location. I have used materials that I had in the shop. Such as bar ends of 2" square 1018 and some, A to be exact, out of a bar end of 3 3/4" stress proof that I was using as a door stop. Any competent machinist should be able to machine them. I use Allen cap screws for main bolts. Seth Hammond used aluminum on his highly modified T engine 10 to 1 compression.


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  18. RussTee
    Joined: Mar 25, 2008
    Posts: 1,208

    RussTee
    Member

    Thanks for the replys fellas as far as I know my Scat crank is the same as a C only drilled it worked out cheaper to buy than find a machine shop that understood and took it serious here in NZ what you guys probably dont know that even changing 50cents into American cash costs me 25 dollars its the way our banks work so it has been a very expensive process bringing in anything still the motor is running now. Its been a lot of standing up to people and doubters who said it would not work. The biggest challenge has been the Winfield carbs I have been told they were far too small and I needed big carbs wrong! with the winfields the air speed is faster and picks up the fuel better they run so much better plus they are in keeping with my build around 1940s. Forty odd years ago without realiseing who I was talking to I use to write to the great man Ed Winfield many long letters and always a reply he must have had a lot of patience the best advise he ever gave me was when building a motor to remember that it was about an imaginary point before where the air entered the carbs to a point down the exhaust usually where it started to turn red. Boy was he right the motor is like a big pump air and fuel in exhaust out. there are many ways to acheieve this it expains the two up two down motor and his carbs a great man and that advise has now I understand it made my motor work.
     
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  19. Jay used Cunningham Rods on the last engine he built with me (It was HIS choice).

    RE: Cranks breaking at rear mains and flanges of A's and B's. Dema Elgin a number of years ago said that it was not necessarily the speed of the crank that caused problems; it is the harmonics developed in the metal and design of an inline four-banger. He told that if you're going to run an A or B much of 300o r.p.m. you are bound to run into a harmonic regime. One of his solutions was to put a harmonic damper on the nose of the crank. The other is to run 5 mains. I broke of few cranks before a got smart. In the long run it has saved a lot of time and money. "Just My Two-Cents"!
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2017
  20. Ed Winfield and Art Sparks, working separately in the early 30's while working on Model T engines (two intakes, "siamesed"); found that two intake valves were open at the same time in the 1-4/2-3 configuration. They found that with a "Log Intake Manifold" that one or the other cylinders were leaning out (consecutively). Thus the Two-Throw ("Two Up/Two Down") crank was created. A friend of mine owns a "recreation" of Winfield's #1. I understand that the Sparks engine exists somewhere in SoCal.
     
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  21. We just received our invitation to the 2017 Rolex Monterey Motorsports Reunion (RMMR). We start our season at Buttonwillow Raceway (VARA'S "British Extravaganza") in early May. Then in early June we go to The Sonoma Historic Motorsports Festival. At the Paso Robles airport there is "The Gezzer's BBQ", a gathering of Hot Rods and Race Cars. This year "Speedsters and Gow-Jobs" are featured (let ME know if you are interested). And finally on July 8th there will be the F.A.S.T. Time Trials at the historic Santa Margarita Ranch.
    Below is the pace lap for the start of the 2015 RMMR "PreWar" main (coming off Turn 10 at Laguna Seca).

    L to R:
    1931 Alfa Romeo P-3 (Eric Shirley); 1932 Miller-Schofield Ford (our car); lurking in back is a 1927? Bugatti Tipo 39 (Charlie Shalvoy); next to me is a recently constructed Ford V8 Champ Car (Max Jamiesson); on the pole is the red 1939 Maserati 4CL (Paddins Dowling) and behind Paddins is a 1932 Alfa Romeo 8C 2300 "Monza" RMMR2015-3.jpg
     
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  22. waxhead
    Joined: May 11, 2013
    Posts: 1,156

    waxhead
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from West Oz

    I am going to install my Miller OHV head soon. It comes with a side cover for an A engine that blocks the original intake and exhaust holes in the block. I wanted to run a full flow oil filter, but still install the Miller side cover. I had a Mikes affordable full flow oil filter lying around, so decided to have a machinist modify my Miller side cover to replicate the Mikes side cover. See below for pictures showing the modifications done. I am going to run the 90 degree elbow for the oil filter off the side plate for a neater looking installation. Hope this helps someone else in the future with modifying a side plate for an oil filter.
    DSCF3312.JPG DSCF3314.JPG DSCF3315.JPG DSCF3316.JPG DSCF3317.JPG DSCF3318.JPG
     
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  23. waxhead
    Joined: May 11, 2013
    Posts: 1,156

    waxhead
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from West Oz

    With 90 degree oil filter adaptor fitted
    DSCF3320.JPG DSCF3319.JPG
     
  24. brokenspoke
    Joined: Jul 26, 2005
    Posts: 2,882

    brokenspoke
    Member

    30ccpu likes this.
  25. That looks like a GREAT installation! I'm guessing that to take advantage of that head that you're going to full pressure lubrication. If you are, be very careful of the setup for picking up oil and pressurizing it. I think that I tried everything. The V8 pump running backwards tends to break as one has to grind away too much to open them up by the gallery. And the pickup had no vortex shield. I got a hold of an expensive aftermarket pump with a two shaft drive. The builder must've had a short boring bar as the shafts and bushing were all out of line, bound up and failed monterey2016(2).jpg . I ended up with an external pump driven off the nose of the crank, with a shielded pickup in an oil vault under the engine, with HORIZONTAL baffles that kept oil from splashing up the sides of the pan and crankcase. Of course my engine is in a race car; but you have to remember: your car is going to go around corners and stop and start. So don't think you don't need much more "splash"!
     
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  26. Bluto
    Joined: Feb 15, 2005
    Posts: 5,113

    Bluto
    Member Emeritus

    John

    You may recall I use MGB 5-main oil pump rebuild kits to make my pumps ..... Cheap, easy, an gearotor design. They can run either direction depending on how you carve the feed relief in the ends. I have a large bar of aluminum hex. I don't have to change chucks. There is enough oil output to keep my little shit turning way past the manufacture redline
    You don't need an expensive pump if your willing to do a little work.

    I just got an NOS P-38 supercharger pump for $12 on Ebay. It will make a nice period front pump for the Miller .... Lot nicer looking than the HAL pump.

    Don't forget you need a crank wiper to clean the oil off the counterweights ;)

    With the Miller head, do you think anyone could hold the RPM down?
     
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  27. waxhead
    Joined: May 11, 2013
    Posts: 1,156

    waxhead
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from West Oz

    John, thanks for the info. Unfortunately my engine only has the old dipper oil system at the moment, so I will have to keep the revs down :( It does have a counterbalanced crank, insert bearings and other goodies on the inside though. I am waiting to get hold of one of Tod Buttermores new aluminium blocks, and then I will build an engine with pressurised oil for the head. I can't wait for the new engine (patience is a virtue that I am lacking) so I am going to install the Miller OHV on my current engine.

    I would love to get a Donovan model D engine, but other than being very expensive, they are also not available at the moment.

    Love the Gilmore Special.
     
    Old Dawg likes this.
  28. Hey, GOOD STUFF JIM!

    I DID forget to mention the need to take the oil off the crank! In many cases though, guys forget to devise baffles to keep the low pressure system created by the spinning crank from pulling the aerosolized oil back up into that crank. The vertical baffles (with the Hamster doors) keep the oil quiet while sitting at the stop light; and the "Windage Trays' keep the flies out of the oil!
    I'm thinking that High R.P.M. isn't what broke the cranks and flanges on my disasters (it added to it). It probably weakened them. Then when I let up on speed and power putting the crank speed back into a harmonic condition of that particular part, within as long as a couple of minutes; and one or more turns on the track..CLANK!..DING-DING-DING!
    And, finally (I think I've said this before) turning these long stroke A's and B's much over the high 4000's to 5000's, the point of diminishing returns has been met. You will be losing more to friction than you can reasonably gain. I think it therefore is wise to design your valve timing accordingly.
    RE: the Serr OHV Miller..I would NOT put on any higher compression until you install a full pressure/high volume lubrication system!
     
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  29. V4F
    Joined: Aug 8, 2008
    Posts: 4,127

    V4F
    Member
    from middle ca.

    I have always used the stock windage tray + 2 swing gates to trap oil under pump .........
     
  30. Bluto
    Joined: Feb 15, 2005
    Posts: 5,113

    Bluto
    Member Emeritus

    Please listen...... you toss a rod or piston and chances ARE that you'll damage that brand new head.

    See I was poor most of my life I could never afford what I wanted so I brought "BROKEN" and fixed it and honest if I broke it I couldn't afford to do it again..... It's good to work toward your goals but not at the cost of everything you hold dear. I've know guys that could assemble an engine on a dirt floor and it ran pretty well........ That was never me.

    You can't buy love ........but you sure as hell can rent it;)
     

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