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Machinists: Lathe Power Help.

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Hackman, Feb 8, 2011.

  1. I recently aquired a like new Enterprise 1560 lathe from a local trade school. I have read that they are a descent machine that is made in India. But I have a problem.
    The school was wired up like a damn power station and had no problem turning the 440v 3 phase motor. My shop, however, is wired for 220v single phase power.
    I started this thread after i found out that the motor is 440v only and i was curious if anyone has run into this problem in the past and what can be done to make it run.
    I had thought about just putting a single phase motor in it and wiring it up through a drum switch to avoid complication but i would really like some experienced imput.
    Anything will help and thanks for checkin this out.
    Hack
     
  2. medicinal_marinara
    Joined: Nov 24, 2009
    Posts: 139

    medicinal_marinara
    Member
    from Oregon

    How many horsepower? If you keep the 3 phase but put a variable frequency drive on it, it can convert the single phase to 3 phase and also control the motor speed and direction, which is nice to have on a lathe. Unfortunately, there aren't that many 440V AC inverter drives that can step up from 220 V, but you could either put in a single phase step up transformer or just change over to a 220V motor.
     
  3. PaulS1950
    Joined: Feb 7, 2011
    Posts: 5

    PaulS1950
    Member
    from Seattle

    You can get a phase converter to run from the 220 single to 440 3 phase.
    That would be the easiest way to handle it but it might be more expensive than finding a 220 single phase motor big enough to run the lathe.
     
  4. Im not sure on the HP but i wanna say 7. From what i have seen, a big HP single phase motor = big money. I have heard of a VFD but know little about them. Where can a fella get one? Thanks for the info!
     

  5. pool
    Joined: Jun 24, 2005
    Posts: 318

    pool
    Member

    If I were you I'd look into one of the new variable frequency drives. They are available in a lot of different inputs and outputs and allow full power, variable speeds and braking. I have used everything from homebuilt capaciter to high dollar rotary etc.etc. and my VFD is hands down the winner. If you do a search you can find them for very reasonable prices. Good luck.
     
  6. CR1193
    Joined: Nov 6, 2010
    Posts: 91

    CR1193
    Member
    from Tennessee

    Check with MSC or ENCO, both sell phase converters reasonable.
    Prices vary according tothe HP rating on the motor......

    I've done it a few times works well for the hobbyist. If you plan on doing any heavy machining you may wanna go another route.
     
  7. Is it true that static phase converters are kind of sketch? I dont know that but i have heard. Thanks again.
     
  8. Ok sounds good. Ill check them out. My boss has a rotary converter in his shop and it works well but not cheap haha. The VFD sounds like the popular answer.
    Thanks guys
     
  9. pool
    Joined: Jun 24, 2005
    Posts: 318

    pool
    Member

    I bought mine from driveswarehouse.com
     
  10. fordcragar
    Joined: Dec 28, 2005
    Posts: 3,179

    fordcragar
    Member
    from Yakima WA.

  11. It is a gear head lathe and the motor is a 440V 3 phase unit and will not step down to run at 230V. And yes it is 15 swing and 60 c-c.

    Thanks pool. Ill check it out.
     
  12. Im having trouble finding one that will step from 220 single to 440 3 phase. Am i missing something?
     
  13. MeanGene427
    Joined: Dec 15, 2010
    Posts: 1,807

    MeanGene427
    Member
    from Napa

    I run both my 16x60 South Bend lathe and my Bridgeport mill off HD static converters from Anderson Converters, about $80 for the last one I bought. You can find them on epay and buy through there, they have many models for different uses and hp levels, and some like these are specifically made for lathe & mill use. They have also been very good about answering questions about proper applications & such. The machine will run at approx. 2/3 power, but how often does a hobby guy need that much power? Both of mine have been running for several years without a hitch
     
  14. the other me
    Joined: Jun 21, 2007
    Posts: 387

    the other me
    Member

    No, you are not missing something. Stepping up to 440 3ph from 220 1ph is not typical. YES, it can be done, but it is not cheap by any means. You will be 100% better off to change the motor on the lathe to a 220 3ph or a 220 1ph. The 220 3ph can be found usually quite cheap used as there are not many people who have 3ph power and the market is not as demanding. In Michigan there are a lot of auction sales that have them cheap. I've actually driven from OH into Michigan to buy 220 3ph motors for equipment in my shop. Do a search here online for a tech write up done by HAMB'er 333 Half Evil. He is the guy who set me up many years ago with my rotory phase convertor.
    When you buy the 220 3ph motor for your lathe, pick up a second one to make your own phase convertor out of and you will be in business. Trust me, IT WORKS.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2011
  15. Buy a converter,,easy fix.

    Tommy
     
  16. MeanGene427
    Joined: Dec 15, 2010
    Posts: 1,807

    MeanGene427
    Member
    from Napa

    Yep, the only motor I switched out was on my IR T-30 compressor, as start under load doesn't get along with a static converter. I found a new same-frame 5hp Baldor on epay for $200, switched if for the 3ph and reconnected inside the control box, and sold the 5hp 3ph motor to a local woodworker that has 3ph in his shop for $50 after tripping over it in my shop for a year. More work, but probably a lot cheaper to swap to a used 3ph and use a VFD or converter than to buy a single ph motor
     
  17. Wow thanks for the imput guys! I am headn in the right direction.
     
  18. the other me
    Joined: Jun 21, 2007
    Posts: 387

    the other me
    Member

  19. medicinal_marinara
    Joined: Nov 24, 2009
    Posts: 139

    medicinal_marinara
    Member
    from Oregon

    http://ptjindustrial.com/

    I got a brand new, in factory box 5hp 1phase 240V Weg 56 frame compressor motor from these guys for $209 shipped to my door. You probably want a TEFC/farm duty motor but they have those too, and the prices and service were really good.
     
  20. DocsMachine
    Joined: Feb 8, 2005
    Posts: 279

    DocsMachine
    Member
    from Alaska

    Okay, most of the advice here is pretty straight.

    First, some basics: The three 'standard' options for running a 3-phase machine on home single-phase, are a "static" converter, a "rotary" converter, or a VFD (variable frequency drive.)

    The static is just a bank of capacitors that "jump starts" the motor, but after that, it runs on only two of the three phases. This reduces the machine's torque and HP by a third, and often adds vibration as well.

    A rotary is simply a 3-phase motor with the same bank of capacitors. The motor starts like the static, then runs on two phases. The third phase then becomes a generator, generating the third phase needed to run the actual machine. These are very good, typically fairly inexpensive, and scale well- meaning you can run more than one machine off a rotary, as long as the total draw is less than the output of the converter.

    A VFD is, for a single machine, the best choice. It gives you digitally clean, true 3-phase, and thanks to the computer control, a whole host of additional options. Like being able to vary the frequency, which gives you the ability to vary the motor speed, typically from a low of 10Hz to up to 120Hz (or twice the motor's rated speed.)

    You also get things like dynamic braking (the VFD will force the spindle to a stop within a certain amount of time) plus ramp-up (accellerating the spindle at a given rate, so it doesn't "slam start" for want of a better phrase.

    The drawback is they can be kind of expensive (a 3HP VFD runs about $250 to $350) and they don't like having switches between them and the motor. So you'd have to rewire the controls on the lathe to run the VFD- which is fairly easy, they're typically designed to do exactly that.

    The 440V part is tough, though. There areVFDs that boost the voltage as well, but they get kind of expensive.

    If it were me, I'd take a close look at the motor. If it's not something odd or specialized (two-speed, or built into the gearbox, etc.) I'd strongly consider replacing the it with a 3 to 5 HP 220V 3-phase, then installing a VFD.

    The whole process won't be cheap, depending on what you can buy a good used motor for, but it'll give you the best possible setup and the most features.

    Doc.
     
  21. HommerSimpson
    Joined: Jan 16, 2011
    Posts: 29

    HommerSimpson
    Member

    Doc... so est?.. total cost in parts and material ? for us that might see a 3 phase 440v machine cheap... we could store that info in the ol fileing cabnet...and want to tackle this on the cheap end and do our self...but do it right..
    Thanks Greg

    P/S ruff est ofcourse...
     
  22. the other me
    Joined: Jun 21, 2007
    Posts: 387

    the other me
    Member

    I'll give you an example of what I just did last year. I bought a 220v 3ph 7.5 horse motor at an auction, it was new, for $96.60 TOTAL. I just made a plate out of 1/4" thick hot roll to adapt the base of this motor to the mount on my lathe. At the same auction, I picked up a new 220v 3ph 10hp motor for $121.50. This auction was held online and the actual site of the sale was in S.E. Michigan at a factory that had closed. I used the 10 hp motor to make a bigger rotary phase convertor for my new shop. With gas $ I've got less than $300. in the new motor for my lathe, new 10hp phase convertor, and I was able to sell the 7hp 44o 3ph motor to a local machine shop fpr $50. to help cut my cost even more. It is amazing how cheap, if you are patient and look, that you can buy 440 3ph equipment and change it over to run out of you garage on 220 1ph with a rotary convertor and used/new auction parts!!!

    EDIT* On a side note, the VFD is much cleaner power, but really not a neccesity unless you are looking at computer controlled equipment and or CNC type stuff. With the ease of making your own rotary phase convertors, and the low cost, you can use the money you save not buying a VFD to buy tooling and workholding accesories. To do most typical machining processes, drilling, taping, etc. you will be perfectly happy with a rotary phase convertor. Just my $.02.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2011
  23. Mr48chev
    Joined: Dec 28, 2007
    Posts: 29,584

    Mr48chev
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Call the guys at
    Wilde Electric Motor Supply

    • (541) 567-7538
    610 Ne 8th Pl, Hermiston, OR 97838

    Sorry about the big type but I copied and pasted. They used to rewind a lot of motors for me for a company that I used to work for and are about as sharp as they come when it comes to things like this. They might have a workable solution for you that won't break the bank.
     
  24. DocsMachine
    Joined: Feb 8, 2005
    Posts: 279

    DocsMachine
    Member
    from Alaska

    -Well, as usual, it depends. :D

    I've had people give me brand-new 3-phase motors, and I've had to pay upwards of half list price for used ones. It just depends on what you have, what you can scrounge, or what you happen to be lucky enough to run across.

    Pretty much like trying to find any rod part. :D

    But, just generally speaking, with a bit of luck you can often find a 3-phase motor for anywhere from $50 to $100. They used to be cheaper, but with the VFDs becoming cheaper and more popular, more people are after 'em.

    As for the VFD, here's one supplier I've dealt with. I have a 1HP and a 2HP, neither have given me any troubles whatsoever. A 1HP is about $180, 2HP about $240, 3HP about $300, and so on.

    It's rare to find VFDs used, except on eBay, and the 'Bay is a crapshoot.

    The rest of the conversion is bits n' parts. A little cabling, maybe an adapter plate if the motor has a different foot, a pot to control the variable speed control, little stuff like that.

    Doc.
     

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