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Looking for Advise on 3 Phase to Single Phase conversions

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by rokcrln, Mar 14, 2010.

  1. rokcrln
    Joined: Jan 22, 2009
    Posts: 175

    rokcrln
    Member

    Hey guys I just got a great deal on a power plate roller that is 50"x16ga but it is 3 phase and my shop is single. I went into this knowing that worst case I am looking at $700 for a real good rotary phase converter that will do the job. With that being said it is still a great deal I got and this thing has almost zero use on it. But my question is can I go a different route and do a single phase 220 motor on it or a different type of phase converter? I have a power bead roller that is 110V single phase but with a 3 phase motor but I am not sure how it was done.

    The slip roll is a 3 phase 220V with forward and reverse 1hp and a 60:1 gear reduction. It is made by Birmingham and is the Taiwan not the china version (I was told it is much better) but I have seen simular versions with a 2hp 220V single phase set up that I would like to try and do. The foot controls are all 24v relays and what not so that should be simple to figure out but the rest I am at a loss for and could really use some advice.

    Here are a few pics and if more are needed please let me know what you might need and I will do what ever I can.

    Thank you very much for any help with this.

    Kevin
    LFD Inc.
     

    Attached Files:

  2. kustombuilder
    Joined: Sep 18, 2002
    Posts: 7,754

    kustombuilder
    Member
    from Novi, MI

    i've got some 3 phase equipment i can't use yet either so i'll be watching this one.
     
  3. 52HardTop
    Joined: Jun 21, 2007
    Posts: 942

    52HardTop
    Member

    The 3 phase converter might be the easiest way out. This unit is all set for 3 phase and to go to a single phase motor you would need to rewire the control. You would need to get a reversing single phase motor and control to do what you already have. If you can run the motor with the converter why not do it?
     
  4. JAWS
    Joined: Jul 22, 2005
    Posts: 1,846

    JAWS
    Member

    110 3 phase is the most dangerous voltage I can think of for AC voltage. That low of voltage will pull way more amps than a 3 phase of 220.

    get an electrician and have him do it. Trust me....I admire the wanting to do it yourself, but there is a point if you don't know this, it's not like car wiring or body work or fabbing where you can just fix what you f'd up. THIS will kill your ass..
     

  5. hotroder69
    Joined: Jul 8, 2005
    Posts: 130

    hotroder69
    Member

    Very nice roller. There are several ways you can get it to work. (I've tried them all). You can buy a converter, solid state or rotary. Solid sate converter are less expensive. Any converter you buy you need one larger attleast 2hp more than needed.
    One you can take the motor and have it rewound for single phase.
    Also you can find a single phase replacement motor. Some of the Chinese motors are ok if you not planning to use the machine in a production enviroment. I have used them for years with out any problems.
    I'm one of guy's that hate to buy foreign shit but, I just can't afford some of the American stuff.
    We have to get the job done.
    Hope this helps a little.

    hotroder69:)
     
  6. Converting 3-phase to single phase is NOT DIY!!! Call an electrician and do it right. So what if you spend a few bucks???
     
  7. kustombuilder
    Joined: Sep 18, 2002
    Posts: 7,754

    kustombuilder
    Member
    from Novi, MI

    what are the down sides to those little guys?? i heard that you lose quite a bit of power or something with them. a guy i know uses one on a band saw and is happy with it but I've heard bad things from other people. been meaning to research the subject. guess now is as good a time as any.
     
  8. 52HardTop
    Joined: Jun 21, 2007
    Posts: 942

    52HardTop
    Member

    That control from artfrombama is all you need. Nice price too. Of course you must have an electrician that does work for you no? Give him a call..
     
  9. decayed40
    Joined: Feb 7, 2007
    Posts: 199

    decayed40
    Member

    I can add that i owned a solid surface counter top fab business ,and i had a large midwest brand beam saw, which is really just a radial arm saw on steroids, it to was a 3phase piece and i went the converter route installed by a well know commercial electrician. and honestly it never had the power it should have had, i was unhappy with its performance. having had this same saw hooked up to true 3 phase in another building i had the chance to compare power sources first hand, and with the converter it really labored on cuts that the regular 3 phase would have went through like butter . not sure if your piece of equipment has a strong power need where this might happen but this was my expierience, good luck!
     
  10. saltracer219
    Joined: Sep 23, 2006
    Posts: 810

    saltracer219
    Member

    Anderson converters on Ebay. Nice people good warranty and quick service. Price is right also. I have been running one on my 16"x60" 5 horse 3 phase lathe for a couple of years now and no problems....
     
  11. I have a 7300CV powering my Bridgeport and love it.
    I think you loose a *tiny* bit of torque at lower speeds but you can do away with those magnetic reversing starters. Mine has a removable keypad and I believe with a little ingenuity you could use your foot pedals.
    HERE

    Nice!
    My RPC burned out last month that ran my Monarch lathe, lookin' for a VFD to replace it.
     
  12. JAWS
    Joined: Jul 22, 2005
    Posts: 1,846

    JAWS
    Member


    That is the other point I wanted to make. Not only is it dangerous to DIY it also is necessary to have your shop wired for the proper setup.

    I am not trying to be a buzz kill, just don't want to see some fellow rodders cash in early at the very extreme, but also want you to enjoy your new toys to the fullest. Who don't like proper performance?
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2010
  13. noboD
    Joined: Jan 29, 2004
    Posts: 7,568

    noboD
    Member

    I have a rotary converter for my 2 milling machines, surface grinder, and lathe. I'm happy with it but it's noisy. I started with a homemade converter that I actually liked better. A engineer friend used to make and sell them. A 3 phase motor will RUN on single but won't start. So he made a small frame, attached a 1/2 HP single phase motor and a 3 phase motor to it, with a belt between them. 3 phase motor must be Delta, not Why or Whey?sp? Momentery switch to single phase motor Knife switch to 3 phase. You hold the momentery switch to get 3 phase motor spinning, throw the knife switch and you have 3 phase generated by the 3 phase motor. Connect and go to work. Mine had a 5 hp 3 phase motor, generated enough to run both mills at one time. I'm sure you could find a wireing diagram online to make one.
     
  14. rokcrln
    Joined: Jan 22, 2009
    Posts: 175

    rokcrln
    Member

    Thanks for the concern and well taken! I was not planning on doing it my self but wanted to figure out what way to go first. I will be doing some trade work this week at a heavy equipment shop and in exchange they will have their Electrician do the work for me.

    Yep I have hear the same thing but with this unit it is gear reduced 60:1 and only turns 16RPM so it should work out great.

    Thanks again for the advice. My house, shop and in-law unit was built in the late 1880's and was only a 60 AMP nob and tube system when we bought. I have since converted everything over to residential 400AMP (366amp) service with 2 main 200amp panels, one in the basement and one right in the shop. So yes it will be properly powered and done correctly at what ever cost.

    The unit I bought was over $3k new and I only gave $600 for it so well below 1/2 cost for used equipment even once it is powered up. I do want to keep it foot operated so I will check more into that.

    Thanks for the info and if their is any more please continue. I will get some pics of the 110V 3 phase converted bead roller later today.

    Kevin
    LFD Inc.
     
  15. Ruiner
    Joined: May 17, 2004
    Posts: 4,145

    Ruiner
    Member

    Isn't 3 phase cheaper to run as far as your electricity bill is concerned?...
     
  16. rokcrln
    Joined: Jan 22, 2009
    Posts: 175

    rokcrln
    Member

    So here is the Lazze bead roller I have that is the 110V single phase unit with a 3 phase motor. It has a speed control and foot operated forward and reverse. I will also check in to the Baldor unit but I guess it will need to be for a 2hp minimum right? I just am not sure if this set up would work for the larger 3 phase motors.

    Kevin
    LFD Inc.
     

    Attached Files:

  17. wayne-o
    Joined: Jan 22, 2006
    Posts: 278

    wayne-o
    Member

    The Variable Frequency Drive will work and would give you the option of varying the speed as long as you do not get too far above or below the motors rated RPM. I have used these on machines with single phase in and 3 phase out but you will loose some power. You would have to rewire the entire control panel, you won't need the reversing motor starter or transformer. You could wire in the foot pedal. They have all types of settings such as ramp up and down speeds. They do not like instantaneous load changes.
     
  18. JAWS
    Joined: Jul 22, 2005
    Posts: 1,846

    JAWS
    Member

    Trading labor for labor, brilliant!

    Keep us posted on how your new toys work.
     
  19. 8-Track
    Joined: Jul 26, 2008
    Posts: 395

    8-Track
    Member

    I have this phase converter on a upholstery roll slitting machine that was made in the early 1900s. a friend gave the converter to me it works better with the converter because you can controll the motor speed with it.
     

    Attached Files:

  20. Unfortunatley many electricians do not understand phase conversion. Probably because it is not something that is normally part of their job or training.
    Yes it is dangerous. So is hunting, even drag racing. Dont touch bare wires . Dont work on anything connected to power and dont touch anything till you measure voltage to ground .
    Search "runnning 3 phase motors on single phase." I used to have the book but I lent it and never got it back. It can be done without a phase converter . Persoanally i prefer a Rotorphaze converter and a good used one can often be found for 200 to 300 $. Try Ebay for instance
    Don
    Here this will go ive you lots of options.
    http://us.altavista.com/web/results...running+3+phase+motors+on+single+phase+power.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2010
  21. Dan Parker
    Joined: Jul 6, 2009
    Posts: 94

    Dan Parker
    Member
    from Salem Al.

    I have an Enco 3 phase convertor on my milling machine,I have had it for 7 years with no problems..They are cheap,around $200.. But a rotary converter is better.
     
  22. rokcrln
    Joined: Jan 22, 2009
    Posts: 175

    rokcrln
    Member

    This machine will not be getting a lot of use. I know the rotary phase converters are better but for the use it will get I would like to not spend more than I have to. Most of the use will be for pre shaping panels before going to the wheel or bead roller and the wire groves will be used the most for doing fender bucks and forms.

    Kevin
    LFD Inc.
     
  23. I believe you loose torque with an RPC also.
    Starting my lathe with cold oil, I would have to slip the clutch to get the chuck moving.
    That's what eventually "smoked" my rotary phase converter.

    VFD's can be set to "soft start" allowing the motor to start slowly
     
  24. Bearing Burner
    Joined: Mar 2, 2009
    Posts: 912

    Bearing Burner
    Member
    from W. MA

    I have a Hatachi variable Freq. Converter on my 3/4 hp lathe. 220v in 220v 3phase out. Unit good for 1 hp havent had any problem with it in several years of intermitent use.
     
  25. Truckedup
    Joined: Jul 25, 2006
    Posts: 4,042

    Truckedup
    Member

    <HR style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #e5e5e5; COLOR: #e5e5e5" SIZE=1> <!-- / icon and title --><!-- message -->
    That's correct, but phase convertors installation is covered the the National Electricial code book.I worked on large projects all the time and never saw a phase convertor until after I retired and do small jobs for spending money.A properly installed convertor will do the job,small solid state units seem to work well for drills and mills.Motors starting under load like a compressor work better with a rotary type convertor.
    There's some power losses with convertors ,but you get what you get when 3 phase isn't available.Research online carefully before buying a convertor.Wire it to Code using the required wire sizes ,disconnecting means and overcurrent protection.If you don't know shit about basic wiring,hire someone who does.If you burn down your shop with illegal shitty wiring ,your insurance company might hassle you big time.
    If possible,it's better to buy a single phase 240 volt motor instead of a convertor.
    Generally, the power company may put at least 4 homes on a single line transformer.Hard starting motors of 5 hp or more can blow a line fuse up on the power pole on at an underground transformer..Do it more than one and the power company will piss and moan .In fact most of them require you to ask permission to use more than 5 hp on a residential single phase service.
    You pay electric by the watt,makes no difference on the voltage.
    By the way,residential voltage is 240/120 volt in almost all situations.220 is long been history.
     
  26. rokcrln
    Joined: Jan 22, 2009
    Posts: 175

    rokcrln
    Member

    I saw one of those when looking this morning. About $200 for a 2hp rated one.


    Yes it will all be up to code. I re-wired my entire property from 60amp to a 400amp residential (366amp) set up that has been great ever since. Also the power grid I am on is the down town business transformer and when PG&E hooked up my drip loop they said I had the best pole in town to be hooked to as far as power pulling. I will be calling about a 240V single phase in the morning but all the ones with the right frames have been upwards of $1K and since this will be a every now and then machine I think I will go a more affordable direction.

    Kevin
    LFD Inc.
     
  27. I read a lot of these but I can say from experience the rotary phase conversion is more than adequate for the job. I used mine to run a Van Norman 652 surface grinder with a 7 HP main mtor and a 1 horse feed motor. I used it for over 10 years without any problems. I am the last house on the line in a rural area and i have one of the old green transformers as they wont change it til it blows. (because it has PCB oil I am told) I used the machine everyday during the week. Sometimes planing up to 7 heads a day for outside shops. I head it all. Not getting 100% efficiency, Losing some power in the conversion. Should get anther motor etc etc. I bought a $20,000 machine(new) for $100 largely because it was 3 ph and 600 volt. I had to get 3 ph 220 then a step up transformer for the higher voltage. All that cost me about $500 . I planed approx 1800 cylinder heads and blocks in the time I had it. I used to keep track of how many heads i averaged per 17 inch grinding wheel. It was about 600 and I wore out more than 3 wheels. It was a huge machine designed in its day to be able to do the longer bigger diesel heads like 671 Gm and Wakashau diesels. The place that bought it and the ph converter and transformer is still using it. As to code? Never hard wire a machine to your shop or home is my rule. Always use an appliance plug or welder plug , which ever is applicable. Then it is an appliance , not part of the structure and wiring. I used my welder plug and a Rhino cable to the converter.
    I have helped another couple of shops with problems in ph conversion. They both had static converters. I got both working. BTW most alternators are 3 phase so that is why i understand it even though they do rectify it ,it is 3 ph Ac first. i am also a ham (VE3LYX) so am somewhat used to building things with high voltage like transmitters as high as 3000 V on the plates.
    If a static converter first ran a small 3 phase motor even free runnng it would produce after that a much better shaped 3 phase.
    Don
     
  28. rokcrln
    Joined: Jan 22, 2009
    Posts: 175

    rokcrln
    Member

    Looks like I will be going with this Rotary Phase converter. http://www.temcophaseconverter.com/docs/6500-2KW_Data_Sheet.pdf Will work great for this machine and up to one more 1 hp machine at the same time. They are local to me so no shipping! $350

    Thanks everyone for all the help and information provided, it really did help in my overall decision.

    Kevin
    LFD Inc.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2010
  29. harrydude
    Joined: Jan 3, 2010
    Posts: 96

    harrydude
    Member
    from ab

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