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Technical Lock Washers??

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Janius, Jun 25, 2016.

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  1. Janius
    Joined: Jul 31, 2009
    Posts: 24

    Janius
    Member
    from New Jersey

    OK, I am replacing the generator in one of my cars (as you can guess, it is an OLD car). What are the best, most effective lock washers? The inside toothed kind? The outside toothed kind? The split ring kind? Are there any others? How well do any of these work. Thanks!
     
  2. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 46,132

    squirrel
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    A drop of loctite, and sufficient torque on the bolts....
     
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  3. G-son
    Joined: Dec 19, 2012
    Posts: 633

    G-son
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    from Sweden

  4. That was an interesting test,thanks G-Son.
     
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  5. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 16,403

    Stogy
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    I have had a nut fall off my generator...(bolt backed out but didn't fall out). I was out and about when a friend spotted it.
    A lower shock bolt came loose as well recently. Another nono was nylok nuts on the lakes header pipe connection. Lots of the hobby is grab whatever and use it. (not good)
    Yeah its not an aircraft but heck we fly down the road at death inducing speeds so yeah be careful.
    So most important no matter what you use apply enough torque (but not to much) to properly stretch and secure the stack-up involved and the application of the right loctite wouldn't hurt the situation either as Squirrel said.
    The use of national fine threads also may be warranted. Lock washers do not last forever either. They may be good for one or two uses (this may vary with types) then they can lose strength or edge.
    If you don't know how much use a general torque chart for bolt size being used. There is a lot of feel involved in the hobby. I am one of them whom generally can gauge but more and more I have employed torque from a torque wrench as it may be critical to get home alive as in lug nuts. Interior screws not so much.
    The look may also play a part as we may not want a modern looking nut or washer etc. Sometimes it is good to find out what OEM setup was...If your old cars anything like mine Do checks to find stuff loosening as you never know.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2016
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  6. Wise words and common sense.^^^^
     
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  7. dirty old man
    Joined: Feb 2, 2008
    Posts: 8,548

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    I've about reached the point that I'd much rather use Loctite than use a regular split lock washer, but I still like castellated nuts and safety wire also.
    I really like the look of the Nord Lock, thx for posting about it.
     
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  8. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 46,132

    squirrel
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    I've been using a torque wrench on lug nuts for years.....
     
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  9. funk 49
    Joined: Nov 14, 2010
    Posts: 242

    funk 49
    Member

    I've been using a torque wrench on lug nuts for years.....
    God bless the torque wrench.
    Funk 49
     
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  10. dirty old man
    Joined: Feb 2, 2008
    Posts: 8,548

    dirty old man
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    My son gave me a rather unique set of 6" extensions for my impact wrench. There's about six, IIRC and they are engineered to specific torsional strengths ranging downwards from IIRC, 120# downwards in 10# increments. They are marked and color coded for each one's torque rating.
    When you reached the design torque, the extension flexes rotationally enough between impacts that you can see they are no longer turning the nut and you stop! Cool deal!
    Would like to know who sells the Nord Lock washers, anybody know?
     
  11. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 16,403

    Stogy
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    It is comforting to hear of torque wrench usage as with the onset of many electronic and pneumatic tools this does not happen unfortunately.
    Just this year on the news there was a pile of flying tire incidents right when people changed over snows to summers.
    Was it private or mechanics cutting corners...dunno but Janius I would suspect your generator had the ole split washer so perhaps a new one, some loctite and proper torque for size of bolt would suffice. Loctite would have been an extra thing perhaps as it can make disassembly a bit more difficult.
    One thing to consider is where the bolt or nut sits on a slotted surface a heavy flat washer would be appropriate on lock washer side to give a full surface to seat and lock to.
    Again find a mechanical diagram or seek out a car of your type...Just gleaned this of the net this will point you in the right direction. Very thorough manuals...albiet a little difficult to find the info you are asking...o_O No mention of value for torque on gen bolts however you can use a general chart to determine a value to suit. Perhaps a GM generator bolt stackup diagram could be found as they look very similar.

    http://rootes.dyndns.org/display1.php?Path=HL_MK3-5&db=Hillman&table=HL_MK3_5&Page=viii

    http://www.spaenaur.com/pdf/sectionD/D48.pdf SAE

    http://electronicfilters.tpub.com/TM-10-4330-237-13P/css/TM-10-4330-237-13P_105.htm Metric

    HL_MK3-5_B-023a.jpg
    HL_MK3-5_B-014a.jpg
    HL_MK3-5_N-009a.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2016
  12. TagMan
    Joined: Dec 12, 2002
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  13. 57tailgater
    Joined: Nov 22, 2008
    Posts: 665

    57tailgater
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    from Georgia

    Working at an OEM truck manufacturer before all fasteners were grade 8 (to simplify inventory and reduce the chance of potential mix ups with lesser grade fasteners) used with flanged nuts properly torqued. For applications needing more security there are flanged lock nuts that were actually deformed radially to a slight oval shape to lock the threads onto the fastener. Match the hardware grade too. I saw mention of bolt stretch too which is all part of the designed retention. Fasteners and surfaces should be clean per manufacturer's recommendations.
     
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  14. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 17,151

    gimpyshotrods
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    It does bear repeating that it has been proven that split-lock washers are anything but lock washers.

    They are equal to, if not slightly worse than no washer at-all. Do not use them.
     
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  15. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
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  16. I was really surprised to see the double nut move so easily, makes me (you) question the second nut tightening procedure for that test.
    Equally Suprised with the nylock nut backing off so easy.

    Nord locks @ nearly a buck a piece for 1/4" , well the tube of lock tight looks better and better.
     
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  17. bchctybob
    Joined: Sep 18, 2011
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    The only reason I would ever use an impact wrench is to loosen something that's stuck and fight it apart. Personally, I don't think they have any place during the assembly of any hot rod (any car for that matter). I have two and they haven't seen the light of day in years. A torque wrench on lug nuts - always.
    I spent most of my career in Aerospace where lock washers virtually don't exist. I've seen the test videos and heard the nay-sayers but on my cars I still use lock washers where appropriate, and a generator mount would be one. Split lock washers would be my choice but most generator frames are aluminum so if it goes against aluminum, I'd use a thin mild steel or S.S. washer too. If the mounting brackets are well designed, that assembly will never vibrate like the test models in the videos. I've never had a generator/alternator or PS pump come loose.
    I use Loctite too but, like lock nuts, if you have to fix something on the road, nothing's worse than fighting Loctite or a lock nut one flat at a time with limited tools.
    Just my $.02
     
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  18. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 16,403

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    Anything that makes one understand and achieve proper torque is better than assumption. Not enough torque...No good...To much...same no good...;) very important topic here. Impact guns and air ratchets are definately to be used with extreme discretion but hand torque can easily achieve just as disastrous a result.
    As eluded there are so many variations of style of nuts ie flange, flange with lock built in. Its overwhelming to some degree. You are in charge of the look you go with and most important no matter what style do it once and do it right.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2016
  19. noboD
    Joined: Jan 29, 2004
    Posts: 7,166

    noboD
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    Does anyone know if the Nord Lock washers can be reused ?
     
  20. Janius
    Joined: Jul 31, 2009
    Posts: 24

    Janius
    Member
    from New Jersey

    OMG, those are shop manual pages for a Hillman Minx!!!
     
  21. G-son
    Joined: Dec 19, 2012
    Posts: 633

    G-son
    Member
    from Sweden

    As far as I know they are not deformed with use, so they should be reusable.
     
  22. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 16,403

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    Hey Janius I was snooping around the net for repair diagrams on your generator and found that Hillman site with scanned manuals and happened into a past auction that I posted late yesterday that had a Hillman and numerous other cool potential rod custom material.
    The HAMB team here has given you lots of help in what to use to keep your generator tight. So yeah glean from the info here and git er dun.

    that past auction link
    http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/interesting-past-auction-grant-j-quam-collection.1024119/
     
  23. jimmy six
    Joined: Mar 21, 2006
    Posts: 6,387

    jimmy six
    Member

    I go along with bchctybob. I worked in power plants for 45 years and the only reason for a vibration like the test was if something was broke really broke. Everything in the plant was balenced and aligned perfect. There was never any cap screw under a grade 5 and stainless was for use near saltwater. In our dirt car and LSR nylon lockers are used and have so far never been a problem. I do like the Nords but don't see using them on everything. The Loctite I use is for machine screws and is purple. It has always kept nuts from backing off and is removable.
     
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  24. dentisaurus
    Joined: Dec 11, 2006
    Posts: 388

    dentisaurus
    Member
    from Boston

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