Hello Everyone, I am trying to get my 46 continental up to snuff to sell it (as a car rather than a project that is, but it's available with a big discount right now if you want, check the classified section if you are interested), and I think I have isolated the source of my issues. When I bought the car, it did not run. I eventually diagnosed the issue as a bad ignition; it had a solid state ignition "mickey moused" in it instead of the points. I got a whole new setup from Jerry Richman in MA, as what was on there was dubious and had been messed with, mechanically (drilled distributor, terminator plates looked funny, etc...). The new distributor worked OK but the car had no balls, it was weak and you had to be good with the clutch from a stop). I thought it was just how old cars were, and I was wrong.... I built up carbon on my plugs in record time, and then I discovered that I actually had no spark at 2 Cylinders : 8 and 1 (see below in bold and italic). It's not because of the carbon because I tried with new plugs, same issue. I am pretty sure I never spark at #8. I think I had spark at the beginning at #1 because my first plug set looked like that one had fired. second set was nice and clean. Here is what the thing looks like for the visual-types like me: Firewall ____________ 12 ------- 11 10 ------- 9 8 ------- 7 6 ------- 5 4 ------- 3 2 ------- 1 Fan As far as I can tell, these are the only 2 cylinders not firing. I know they are not firing because when the car is running and I pull the plug wire from the spark plug, nothing happens. If I do that to the other plugs next to it, and I tried them all I think, RPM drops drastically. I have good blue, 1/2 inch spark at all wires, including those that don't fire. All spark plugs are new Autolite 212, brand new, not carboned (I carboned pretty badly the first set with just this summer's limited runtime), and gapped correctly. I have swapped the plugs not firing for new ones I knew had fired (they were a little dirty with carbon deposit from running too rich on the first set), and same outcome, no reaction when the plug wire is removed from the spark plug. I took compression reading with a professional when the engine was not running (before the new distributor arrived, when I was trying to figure out the problem). All tested from 115 - 130 PSI. I took the readings again (same tool, same professional with me) after the summer and running the car. The car ran maybe for 2h, mostly idling or low RPM around the block kinda thing, and now it's more like 100-105 PSI on all. I probably carboned the crap out of it. we were both surprised. He is in his 70s and has worked on old engines before so he's not new like me. The cylinders that do not spark are both at 105 PSI, which is still OK from what I have been told. When the engine runs, you can feel the misfire, it's not super smooth and there is a vibration that comes almost at the same interval, and it does it whether hot or cold. I sprayed all around the intake manifold gasket with brakeleen; no reactions. There does not seem to be a leak there. I changed the oil twice, once after I got it started, once after the summer and after running marvel 1/3 can of mystery oil in the carb (as advised by Richman), and each time the oil thinned and smelled like gas, so definitely I have unburned fuel that gets to it. You coulnd't tell from the tailpipe until very recently, but you can smell it from there when you push the gas pedal at idle now. To make matters even more weird, I did my research and those 2 cylinders have nothing in common (see the ignition wiring below with the marks): Different rotor. Different terminator plate. Different condenser. I can double check again if the wires are plugged correctly in the terminal, but I bet they are. So, I am left wondering, what on earth is causing those two cylinders not to fire... I have spark apparently. I have compression. I probably have fuel because I am running too rich and thinning my oil. So what is the issue causing the misfire. Have you ever run into this on a Flathead V8 or V12? (or another kind of engine ?) What do you think it could be? I am limited in terms of tools I have access to so that can be an issue, but I can get some help. Let me know what you think. Thank you. - Uriel
Are you sure that firing order is correct? I realize that there is a printed page there that shows firing order and location, but every Ford (I know it’s a Lincoln) is numbered differently. Typical Ford V8... Left bank: 1 2 3 4 Right bank: 5 6 7 8 In your case it MAY be Left: 1 2 3 4 5 6 Right: 7 8 9 10 11 12 Thats just a total guess from someone that knows zero about your specific engine. If you have good compression, and you see spark on the cylinders not contributing to the power output, I have to go to “overlooked” possibilities. Have you put a timing light on the dead cylinders to see if you truly have ignition while running? You don’t need to have it aimed for timing, just see if it triggers the lamp. Good luck!
Also, If you have so much fuel that you are thinning out the oil, you may be looking at the wrong side of the equation. Any engine running way to rich will start to misfire.
This may be of no help, but just has me thinking. If you were to make timing reference marks on the crank pulley, then mark #1 and #8 in a noticeable difference, then finagle yourself in a position with a timing light hooked to those wires and see if they are firing in correct time as needed. Of course you’d need to mark reference points as well. Would be a decent undertaking, but maybe cut some poster board, get a circle made, split it and attach behind the pulley, etc, and mark it out where 1 and 8 should fire. Could it be something amiss/sloppy in the came gear? Maybe two missing teeth and the cam gets “sloppy” and lags keeping up when needed. Just spit balling and seeing if it sticks.
Trendz and Budget36, thank youor your insight. I called Jerry Richman who has rebuilt my distributor (and who I can tell is getting a bit tired of trying to diagnose my dang thing). He suggest two things after talking with his engine rebuilder: - the good case is: infake manifold leak around those 2 cylinders, or - the bad: valves on those cylinders don’t seat well and may need to be fixed. I was also advised to test the spark plugs themselves (to see if they actually spark). Adjusting timing on these V12 is not as easy as for other cars. I don’t actually know where to plug the tuming light on this. Because I have spark at the wire to plug connection, I think I’m good there. But if it’s out of whack? Not sure I’d know I can adjust timing advance with a screwdriver, but Richman told me not to. It’s nota job for a newby. Firing order on the publication matches other sources; I did not adjust the timing, someone who knows did; I’m not sure I should discuss that. That engine is from Mars more than Detroit... I’ll tell you all tomorrow about that gasket leak test (spraying the carb cleaner all around the intake manifold). My carb does need a rebuild, I have little doubts about it, and that may fix the backfire through the carb; but it does not explain the 2 cylinders apparently not firing unfortunately. Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
Just a note on the timing gear, I can’t really see what I am attaching the distributor to because there is a plate hidong the gear (I suspect), but when I touched it as I was re-attaching the distributor, I felt no play in that part. I couldn’t turn it by hand, No wiggle really; so it’s probably OK there. More info tomorrow. Thanks again for your suggestions. Best. Uriel Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
Not what you want to hear, but it’s why so many 41-48 Continentals had 331 Cadillacs put in them..was a very popular swap in the 50’s..
When you next start into it, is it possible that you might have "2" & "8" switched : you say you have a "Fat Spark" at each of them, which is why I ask the question, & no you wouldn't be the first person to make that mistake, even on a 6 cyl motor!!
Hi Jimmy, I know.... I am considering this myself if I an’t sell the car for a decent price... I may post about that soon ;-) I am sort of doubtful about flatheads though. Very old designs and a lot of man-labor involved when fixing them, which is harder to find and more expensive by the minute... If I end up swapping the engine, I may go with something a tad younger, 60’s engine maybe. Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
I’ll double check, because that would an easy fix, hein? But I seriously doub it. The distributor has this odd design and it sits in the front, woth wires plugged left and right, and I labelled my wires. I am pretty sure they are in the right spots. But who knows. I’m always up fpr an easy fix. Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
I was skeptical of your cylinder numbering until I found this diagram. Most Fords go numerical down each side rather than even/odd. It looks like the V12 uses the even/odd numbering. If you have good spark and compression, the problem must be in the intake system. However, it appears the cylinders in question are fed through different passages. They are across from one another. But, two other cylinders are fed by those passages. It will be interesting to find out what you find.
Thanks JARacer, I think actually found at least half of the issue, and usual, the simplest solution is often the best... Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
So, I tested yesterday for spark at the plugs: all OK. And then I retested all my plugs (unplug, listen for RPM drop) and guess what: every other cylinder on one bank wasn’t firing, and one one the other side. So... it had to be the simplest answer. drtcrV8 = you win. I had never questionned the labels on the plug wires at the distributor side, but they were from the previous rebuilt and they were wrong for at least 4 of them. So I drove the dand thing on 4 cylinders firing right, 4 out of timing and 4 not firing at all ! That explain why so much fuel was getting vaporized and making into the oil, at least partially. I still think my carburetor was tinkered witn and is likely ready for a rebuild by someone who knows what he is doing (aka not me or the previous guy). I will troubleshoot again today or this WE, during the day this time, to make sure I did fond the source of most of my problems, but the car sounds better, that’s certain. It’s still not smooth, and it idles a bit rough, so not fully cured yet, but it idles without having to pull the hand throttle and with the choke all the way open. I did also test for intake leaks by spraying carb cleaner all around the intake manifold and found none (no change in RPM, no flame jetting), so I should be good for now. More soon and thank you to everyone for your tips and suggestions. One last thing, I owe someone a correction, a 331 Caddy is not a flathead engine, my bad. I guess I could look into a swap once I am get really tired of fixing the V12. Is that correct that they just bolt in place of the V12 on the transmission? Simply like that? I’m pretty sure I read that somewhere. Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
Tons of engines from other makes will bolt onto the old Ford/Merc/Lincoln transmission with the myriad of adapters made back in the day. Make sure you can locate the proper adapter before you invest a ton in the new engine.
The Jalopy Journal
