I am looking for a source for Lime Gold lacquer toner and was wondering if anyone knows where one could get such a thing or would have a formula for mixing it out of regular toner colours. I am trying to reproduce the colour that the Ayala's used on the Wally Welch and Louise Bettancourt Mercury's. I have a thread going on Rik Hovings site: http://www.customcarchronicle.com/forums/topic/ayala-green-gold-paint-my-search/page/7/ about this and have been provided with a bunch of great info but the one thing I haven't been able to locate yet is Lime Gold Lacquer toner. I have contacted TCP Global and they say they don't have a specific Lime Gold coloured toner and would need a formula to produce it. From what I have been told it was an available colour toner back in the day but doesn't seem to be anymore. If anyone has any info I would greatly appreciate it. This is Wally's Mercury for an idea of what I am trying to do.
Hey, At this late date in time you're probably gonna have to mix your own toner! You'll need a yellow, green, a black & some form of fine ground metalic gold flake, in a mixing clear. Maybe something will turn up for sale on ebay, or the intercourse, but gettin it into Kanda. I duno 'bout Did you ever hear back on a colour code used on the restoration of the Wallymobile?
Hey Pimpin. I had hoped you would chime in. I figured I would have to get a mix of some sort just hoping someone might have a ratio I could provide someone to mix. No problem getting the stuff into Canada. It's really only body shops and automotive paint stores that can't use or sell the stuff. Other industries are still allowed to use and they don't care about individuals. Hell you can buy the cheap pre mixed Dupli colour Lacquers at Canadian Tire. I have found some toners from a wood working company up here but I am not sure if they would be the same as what was being used in automotive paints. They are made by a company called Mixol. Some of the colours are not UV stable so obviously those would be out but they do have some that they say are. No I haven't heard back about the Welch code. I know the sample they compared it to it is from a BASF colormax (M6000) deck but the decks are hard to find up here.
Don Hutchinson Cycle in Kansas I think mixes lacquer for vintage bikes. Might be worth a try. What about Bill Hirsch?
Hey K13, That colour sample,M6000, looks like a Ford Motor Company colour " Sportsman Green'' from 'bout 1950-'51. I shot a '51 Crestliner in it 20 years back. Sorry, no formula, as I mixed it from a Volkswagen colour from the 70's as I had no formula
I looked at that on TCP's site but thought it looked too green. It was the only factory colour I found during those years when the cars were built that was even close to something they may have used and modified. I believe the metallic powder that was used is Crescent Bronze Company #252 Extra Brilliant Rich Gold whcih is still available. Manuel, that has been helping me out a ton on Rik's site, said he saw an article that Barris wrote saying that was what they used and now today Michelley posted a bunch of interviews about the Nick Matranga Merc and there is a pretty long section discussing paint and even though it looks like they were trying to conceal what was actually used they did mention Crescent powder so I am pretty confident now that Manuel is right about what powder was being used.
Since you are looking for lacquer toner can we assume you want to do the truck in lacquer? Hibernia Auto Restoration in New Jersey mixes both nitro-cellulose and acrylic lacquer. Their color books go way back. My Dupont books for 1971-72-73 GM show some green/golds and gold/greens with Lucite Acrylic Lacquer numbers. I didn't look further and there could very well be better colors to start with. They are metallics. If you believe there is substantial gold tone to the color than it would almost have to be a metallic color wouldn't it? I believe the shortest route to the color is to modify an existing formula. I also think that attempting to match it with other than lacquer (modern single stage or BC/CC for example) will result in excessive "sparkle" Color matching is not an exact science unfortunately. Luck.
Yes John I hope to spray in lacquer. One for the reason you mentioned about the look of modern paints and second because I am doing this in my garage and foresee fewer problems with contamination etc with the quick dry times of lacquer and the fact that lacquer is not quite a deadly is definitely not a down side either. Yes I believe it was a metallic hence the gold powder. This is how Manuel from the thread on Rik's site thought the paint was done. "I’ll bet my old Binks guns that Gil Ayala used lime gold lacquer toner with a little Crescent Bronze Co. #252 Extra Brilliant Gold powder mixed in, with a little clear lacquer mixed in also. Most likely the gold powder was mixed with the clear and approx.3 coats of this mixture was sprayed as a base with the lime gold mixture was sprayed over it. As more coats of lime gold were sprayed, more clear was added to the mix for some depth, then 2 to 3 coats of just clear was applied. This gave you something to color sand on instead of sanding on the lime gold. In those days, wet & dry finest sandpaper was 600 grit, so after about a week to 2 weeks dry time, you wet sanded with the 600 and then rubbed it out. The color was good looking and depending on how much clear you added to the lime gold, it rivaled the later candy paint jobs." The cars were both painted in the early 1950's so if a factory colour was the base it would have been before that. I have gone through the files on TCP pretty extensively and haven't really seen anything close. My problem is I cannot get automotive lacquer mixed in Canada so it's tough without a formula to call someone in the U.S. and get them to mix me a colour that I have no idea what it looks like. My hope was that, as Manuel stated, Lime Gold was a common toner colour that someone would know how to reproduce or have. I am not set on a dead on match, (not that I even really know what the colour was exactly as the few pictures available seem to have faded) but would like something as close as I can.
I wonder if it would work if you added some DupliColor PaintShop Candy Apple Green (it's Lacquer) to some Lacquer Gold?
Try asking a US lacquer supplier if they have lime gold toner and gold powder or extra fine gold flake. If so buy a small amount and play with it some. Spray some test panels. The Hibernia label I have states they have color chips back to 1940. They may have a good selection of the old toner colors etc. There is /was a company called Colorite that I think does lacquer.
HOK candy concentrates are compatible with lacquers (KK codes). They have a lime gold, too. I'm sure Jon Kosmoski would be able to help in determining if it was the same as the old lacquer toners, as he developed the colors back in the 50's, to duplicate the clean clear toners that made nitrocellulose lacquers so beautiful. He was disappointed in how the acrylic lacquers didn't look as clean as the old nitro ones, do he formulate his own. I've been able to talk to Jon about the old paints, when painting the Kopper Kart, and he steered me in the right direction about the old white pearls, and such. He still consults for HOK.
Hey K13, With a paint job consisting of a mix of clear lacquer, lime gold toner, and alittle bronze flake thrown in I can see why the Benacourt Merc was repainted soon after leaving Ayala's shop! If it saw much time in the mid century California sun, it musta died fast. With little actual pigment, and only a thick mixture of clear lacquer holding the toners and bronze flake on the job it's no wonder it failed This same problem killed many an early candy job too. After Jon sold the HOK line to Valspar, I don;t know If he'll be very easy to get ahold of, maybe Mark has a contact#?
Thanks guys. I have a source for the gold powder so that is not an issue. I also have a quart of some lime gold HOK candy lacquer on the way to play with as the HOK distributor in Canada has a pile of it but I don't really think this would have been a candy originally but maybe I am wrong? Would candy's have been sprayed this early? I am a little confused by the differences between regular lime gold toners and the candy toners. I understand the basic difference (opacity) but were guys using normal toners and just thinning them with clear to the point that they basically became early candies? Were they using actual candies at this point for these paint jobs? I always got the feeling that candies came along more towards the end of the '50's but again maybe it is just the impression that has been cultivated with all the focus on guys like Watson etc. Mark as per your advise on the other thread on Rik's site I have had an industry contact put me in touch with Craig Fraser to get Jon's contact info so I am hoping that will pan out. Thanks again guys.
Hey Ian, I gotta wonder if you're lookin for a toner that didn't exist when Ayala painted these Mercs? That was 1949-50? When you look over the oem colours in use then ,ya see maybe 13-15 bases, that all changed by the mid decade! I kinda think Ayala mixed this from a perm green lite, some lite yellow, some black & maybe a few drops of blue in a clear lacquer. These added to a white would give ya your base tone. Who knows, maybe he just used the Ford colour cut with clear, and adjusted 'till the mix matched his eye? The HOK Kandy Konsentrate would probably make for a shorter route to your target " if '' you're goin the kandy lacquer route, but I think I'd go with a more contempary colour match you can get a formula for, and adjust to your taste.
I am beginning to think I might be as well. The only reason I thought it might was Manuel said he used to have some lime gold lacquer powdered pigment so I hoped it may have been something that was commonly available. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if Gil mixed his own color but I don't have the access to lacquer toners to have the ability to do that so my hope was something may exist that I could use that is at least close. I don't want to do a candy at all as I agree it is not the right look I am after. I just ordered it because it was close and cheap and I figured I could play around with it a bit. Do you think it would have been an opaque color originally that the powder was added to rather than the candy like process that Manuel suggested? His process seems almost like a fake candy rather than an actual candy toner but I wonder if a similar effect can be achieved by just mixing the powder into the right colored lacquer if I can ever find that
Hey, My WAG say's Ayala probably started out with an opaque base that once flashed he began with the multi coats of the limegold, clears and bronze powder . This process would allow him to control the exact colour he wanted by more or less limegreen & gold, and more or less bronze powder. Given he was working in lacquer ment very thin (piss thin) coats that would allow for adjustment, not like kandy or today's urethanes. The addition of metalic powders, pearl or mica for that matter to a finish requires careful mearsurement, too little added, and you miss the look you're after. If you overshoot the mark and add too much you'll have blochy or dead spots and kill your colour at which point you're basicly fucked! Painting a truck inna candy, with all those angles, especially with the colour yer gunnin for would be a real mutha, jus ask chopolds
HAHA yeah I have read enough of his posts on painting candy to know it is not something I want to tackle.
Rex knows a hell of a lot more about mixing paint than I do....I just buy, and perhaps add or mix available custom paints to get the colors I want. In any case, the original candies were made from clear lacquer, with the available (at the time) lacquer toners. They didn't invent anything new. So....it seems sensible that the Ayalas probably used a standard color with the lime toners, or perhaps used the lime plus other available bases, and toners to make his unique color. While I doubt you'd want to get into the nitro lacquer thing, I'm sure that you can get the components to make your own acrylic lacquer. Going by what Rex has said, you could try mixing your own with his formula, until you get it right. Opaque green and yellow toners should be pretty common, and if the lime one isn't, then you can use the HOK version. The mixing base, black and white are even more common. If you can't get a hold of Jon (I'll look for his personal number when I get to the shop), maybe Stan Betz is still around? He was another guru of custom paint mixing, who might steer you in the right direction to find mixing lacquers. Or maybe even some old timers in the paint shops in your area. Even just getting a formula to begin with is a start, as Hibernia or Bill Hirsch might be able to mix it from there, and then you can add your gold powder/lime toner to fine tune it. I feel for you! Getting the paint and colors right on the Kart was a real project in itself, spanning a few months, lots of phone calls, buying many different products, additives, flakes, and such, and dozens of test spray outs until I got it right. Just keep plugging along....it IS important enough to get it right! If the paint ain't right, nothing is!
Thanks Mark! Thankfully I am not building a clone like you guys were so it doesn't have to be super accurate. The Ayala's were my favourite builders of the time and I thought it was pretty cool that in a sea of dark customs they were one of the shops that stepped out of that mold and painted a couple of iconic cars is this wild (for the time) colour. I was really struggling trying to come up with a colour and when I started thinking about this colour it just kind of felt right. I am not opposed to using modern materials (most likely waterbourne if I get the materials here) I just thought it would neat to paint it in as close to the same materials as I could to how it was originally done. As you mentioned the formula is the key that is proving difficult. There seems to be a few places that I could get it mixed if I had a formula but that is of course the elusive part. Shipping is a killer in getting things up here as well as it is usually more than the materials themselves so it really starts to increase the costs substantially if once ordered things aren't right even smaller sample sizes. This is one of the reasons I am trying to source as much as I can on this side of the border or at least only need to ship once from the U.S. It has been fun and the help I have been getting from you, Rex, John and Manuel on Rik's site has been awesome and VERY much appreciated!!
I'm chiming in a little late here, and have not read all the posts. There was a Ford Mustang color introduced in 1967 that was actually called Lime Gold, and I fell in love with it. So much so that I had my first car ('57 Chevy) painted that color, and then later my second car too ('66 Vette). It appeared to be very close to the color of that Merc in the photo. It's #43576 on the PPG/Ditzler color chip page of TPCGlobal's site, but the chip looks darker than the actual paint. Supposed to be available in lacquer or enamel.
Thanks Bluedot I will look into it. I am not expecting much but I am going to play around with these to see what I can come up with. I am also going to try and get some toners and play with them in the next little while I found a place that sells small quanities for $5 each so it won't cost much to experiment a bit.. I have sent an email to Hibernia to ask about lime gold toners as well so we will see if they have any info or tell me I am SOL without a formula.
Well I will tell you what the gold powder is crazy powerful. I had no idea how much would be needed so I mixed about an 1/8 teaspoon into 2 oz of candy and this is what I got. It went from this: to this: Not sure when I will get a chance to spray it but I was too curious to not see what would happen. I think this powder is darker than what has been recommended as well so the right stuff might not cast suck a deep gold colour to it.
Do you know about a process called "Color Killing"? You mentioned that something was too green for your liking. Red kills green. Green kills red, there's more but I don't have my old Ditzler mixing book handy (actually haven't seen it in years!). Killing requires mad patience and ONE DROP AT A TIME. It works like crazy but I find it to be rare knowledge. Maybe the 'net has some references. And HOK Lime Gold is an awesome toner. I've gone to rich mahogany tones and real warm walnut browns using it. It also makes a color pop like crazy, gives it an almost fluorescent look sometimes. I used a lot of it for the few "true fire" gigs I did. Man did that fad go away fast. Good luck, looks like you have some good support going on.
Glad you chimed in Highlander I have been waiting. I know nothing about mixing paint so any advice is much appreciated. Not sure when I will get to spray some but I will report back when I do.
Hey Ian, I won't post a bunch of blah,blah 'bout colour theory, colour wheels and the study of such as it's probably more than ya wanna know, but as Highlander spoke of '' killing colour '' thought I throw this up----red will darken green and green red, purple will darken yellow, and blue will darken orange, but when you start mixing secondary colours,(colours other than red, blue, yellow) together, ya better be on your game Is that powder a metalic, or a coloured plastic flake? By the time you mix a base, mix a limegold toner, clear and your powder and buy enough to shoot that truck in lacquer, your gonna be into some tall coin Ya may wanna go with a pick from a colour you can adjust from something late model. I don't think the " Tree-Hugger Kool-aid '' (waterborne based paint) will work in a home shop unless you have some way of heating the shop, the job whyle your painting, as well as whyle the job is flashing.
It is a metallic powder no plastic. HAHA this is Canada everything is expensive. I priced out a gallon of Andalusite blue from PPG (it's my fall back colour) and it is $500 a gallon just for just the paint, no reducers, no clear and that is my insider price for being in the industry. Drying time for waterbourne is more a humidity and air flow issue than a heat issue and it is dry here but the airflow is where a booth really becomes a requirement as blowing air around doesn't help much for keeping shit out of your paint. So no not a great home use product. But my garage is heated if it was required. I am in Canada afterall. I will see if this candy will work and if it does it's not a bad price at $60 a quart and I have found what I have been told is a top quality clear lacquer used in the aircraft industry that is pretty well priced as well. The powder is about $45 a pound. Everything can be sourced in Canada other than the powder which would save me probably $300 plus in shipping that I would pay if I ordered anything from the U.S. I would love to find a colour that doesn't require all this but so far that hasn't panned out but we will see. I don't really have the paint mixing skill to adjust anything that isn't right so I would need the colour right out of the can to be correct. I got a call back from Hibernia but missed it today so I will talk to them in the morning and see what they have to say maybe they will be able to give me some help. But even there I am looking at $400- $600 a gallon for colour, and $325 a gallon for clear, plus thinner, plus shipping so I would be well over a grand by the time I got it here. If I can get something close with what I have I may even be able to take it to one of the local jobbers and figure out how to get a colour mixed off of my sample so there is always that option as well.
The Jalopy Journal
