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Let's see some sheet metal shaping

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by jhnarial, Sep 16, 2008.

  1. Randy Ferguson
    Joined: Dec 15, 2007
    Posts: 60

    Randy Ferguson
    Member

    This is an aluminum '63 Pontiac Tempest fender. I am building the complete front end.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    tb33anda3rd likes this.
  2. jhnarial
    Joined: Mar 18, 2007
    Posts: 410

    jhnarial
    Member
    from MISSOURI

    Man I can't wait to see this front end come together.I think it is going to be even better then the Willy's front end,being that this front end will be all aluminum.Is it 3003?

    I notice a few things looking at the first picture.It looks like you used duro-glass on the leading edge of the fender well on the bondo buck.Did you use it to hammer form the whole lip?I'm guessing you shaped the outer lip and just hammered formed the inner lip.

    I also noticed your weld seems are more like 4'',instead of the one inch like you use to do.Is this because aluminum is easier to stretch?

    On your part lines,I understand the bottom two.What was the reason for the top front piece.Does dive down more then it appears in the photo?I'm just asking because I think the part lines are important and I know you have the best understanding on where to place them.

    Tell Michell and the kids I said hi.Also tell Ryan the grass looks good:D.
     
  3. Randy Ferguson
    Joined: Dec 15, 2007
    Posts: 60

    Randy Ferguson
    Member

    Johnny,

    Yes, it's 3003

    I always use fiberglass reinforced filler on areas that will double as a hammerform, or where I feel added strength is needed. Part of the wheel opening lip was hammer formed. I stamped the two lower panels.

    I usually don't planish the weld seam on aluminum until I'm finished welding, UNLESS it looks like it's doing weird things. That's the reason for the longer weld. Besides, when it's going good, it's hard to stop!

    As you know, for every action there's a reaction. The majority of the shape of the top half of that fender is in the front 12". It's quicker and easier to make that smaller panel and weld it in than to try doing it in one piece.
     
  4. 1320stang
    Joined: Nov 21, 2006
    Posts: 166

    1320stang
    Member
    from Edmond, OK

    .....whoa.....

    .................

    .................
     
  5. jimi'shemi291
    Joined: Jan 21, 2009
    Posts: 9,499

    jimi'shemi291
    Member

    Awesome thread!!! I really wanna DO this myself. WHAT A SENSE OF ACCOMPLISHMENT WHEN YOU'RE DONE WITH A PIECE!
     
  6. tdoty
    Joined: Jun 21, 2006
    Posts: 821

    tdoty
    Member

    There's really only one way to do it - do a bit of research or find someone to show you some basics, sure, but really, grab a hammer and some sheet and start beating!

    Nice work, Randy, as usual!

    Tim D.
     
  7. RodLand
    Joined: Dec 19, 2005
    Posts: 369

    RodLand
    Member


    I need to learn more about this!!:cool:
     
  8. pimpin paint
    Joined: May 31, 2005
    Posts: 4,937

    pimpin paint
    Member
    from so cal

    Hey,

    My bet is that this hammer and chisle work on the Volkswagon Bus floor panel, being done over a piece of wood, on the shop floor, is being done to prestretch the metal prior to beading work in a machine! If the panel were jus' run through a beading/swaging machine, without any prestretching, the dies would pull metal from the surrounding areas, not inside of the beads/swages causing distorsion (waves and buckles) and yielding a part that look as if it had been beaten on the shop floor.
    A very nice end product!

    Swankey Devils C.C.
    "All Great Truths Begin As Blasphemies"
     
  9. beaulieu
    Joined: Mar 24, 2007
    Posts: 364

    beaulieu
    Member
    from So Cal

    NOPE , there is no beading machine involved ,

    there is a thread on a VW website showing these guys rebuilding a VW bus , making all the parts, all by hand ,

    pretty amazing work, I wonder if they can make some 32 3 window bodies :):):)

    Beaulieu
     
  10. pimpin paint
    Joined: May 31, 2005
    Posts: 4,937

    pimpin paint
    Member
    from so cal

     
  11. chevy3755
    Joined: Feb 6, 2006
    Posts: 1,044

    chevy3755
    Member

    I really ENVY you guys........if i could only come close
     
  12. Randy Ferguson
    Joined: Dec 15, 2007
    Posts: 60

    Randy Ferguson
    Member

    I'm completely new to stamping sheet metal and yes, I have found there to be quite a learning curve, not only in how the metal will react, but in die design as well. Having a fairly good understanding of how metal will react during traditional metalshaping techniques is helpful, but there is still a lot to learn. I have limited tonnage to work with, so it takes several cycles to form a finished part if there is a lot of shape, but it's still faster than doing it by hand...if you plan to make multiple parts. There is a lot of time involved in making the dies.

    I've used the press for cold roll steel as well as aluminum. Most of what I do is steel, so that's what it will be used for mostly. I haven't tried drawing quality steel yet, but stamping operations is what it was produced for, so I'm sure there are benefits in using it. I've only used commercial quality 19ga. so far. I plan to get some drawing quality steel to try soon.

    Here's a section of a Willys deck lid inner structure I stamped using 19ga. It needs some fine tuning, but it is a usable panel and was much faster to form in the press than it would be to use chasing tools and hammerforms.

    [​IMG]
     
  13. Any pix of the press?
    What tonage are you using?
    I have thought of building a small press as well.
     
  14. Randy Ferguson
    Joined: Dec 15, 2007
    Posts: 60

    Randy Ferguson
    Member

    [​IMG]


    It measures 36"x48" between posts. It's very well built, but it's only 30 ton. I've seen the same brand, same dimensions rated at 100 ton, but this one has a smaller cylinder. It could be modified to accept a larger one, but may not be worth the trouble. BIG presses are selling cheap right now. The expense is in rigging and transport though. A friend of mine just watched a 350 and 400 ton press sell at auction two weeks ago for $150.00 ea.
     
  15. budd
    Joined: Oct 31, 2006
    Posts: 3,478

    budd
    Member

    does your press have a die cushion?
     
  16. Randy Ferguson
    Joined: Dec 15, 2007
    Posts: 60

    Randy Ferguson
    Member

    No. It's just a simple trim press.
     
  17. budd
    Joined: Oct 31, 2006
    Posts: 3,478

    budd
    Member

    you could use nitrogen springs, lets see some of your tooling
     
  18. Randy Ferguson
    Joined: Dec 15, 2007
    Posts: 60

    Randy Ferguson
    Member

    I'm almost embarrassed to show any of the tooling. It's pretty simple stuff. For the aluminum fender, I just made fiberglass and bondo male dies and used 3/4" rubber pads in place of the female die.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    I'll try to get some pictures of the deck lid inner die sometime soon. I tried doing it with rubber pad forming, but lack the tonnage to get the detail, so I made a female die for that.

    I'm always open to suggestions.

    Keep in mind though that I'm just a poor boy trying to find a way to speed up the process. I'm not looking to stamp out hundreds of parts per day.
     
  19. budd
    Joined: Oct 31, 2006
    Posts: 3,478

    budd
    Member

    doesnt matter what it looks like as long as it works, i hope you put blocks in your machine when your setting it up and use something to place the blanks in when your making parts, i hate seeing guys with there arms in machines like punch presses and hydraulic presses.
     
  20. CoolHand
    Joined: Aug 31, 2007
    Posts: 1,928

    CoolHand
    Alliance Vendor

    Indeed.

    Even 30 tons will turn a man into burrito meat wearing jeans, in very short order.

    Press mishaps are never pretty, and it don't take much of a lapse in attention to get hurt real bad.

    Keep your wits about you.

    I'm over in BFE MO, but if you get to the point that you want to start working on steel production dies, give me a ring. I have a VMC that I'm always looking to book spindle time for.

    Your work so far looks outstanding.
     
  21. Impressive stuff Randy. I'm keen to hear more about ya die's, mabe some pic's from behind, I'll be keen to see the deck lid die also.

    Cheers Shrapnel :cool:
     
  22. GooseNZ
    Joined: Aug 26, 2009
    Posts: 45

    GooseNZ
    Member

    Get summa your fellas pics up there shrapnel!!!
    or are they floating round already? if so, got a link?
     
  23. Goose .. See post 448.

    Hey Shrappy.. "mabe some pic's from behind, "

    Who's behind do you want shots of?

    :eek:


    .
     
  24. GooseNZ
    Joined: Aug 26, 2009
    Posts: 45

    GooseNZ
    Member

    haha. WHOOPS. missed them, was looking out for more than one pic, but now i see the link. awesome shit.
     
  25. Randy Ferguson
    Joined: Dec 15, 2007
    Posts: 60

    Randy Ferguson
    Member

    I know about the risk. I'm keeping it safe.

    Ryan, I appreciate that. I'll have a look at your website. I may need your services at some point.
     
  26. CoolHand
    Joined: Aug 31, 2007
    Posts: 1,928

    CoolHand
    Alliance Vendor

    Yeah, the website is all in disarray. I've been "working" on it for months now.

    I used to really enjoy web development, but not so much anymore, which means I drag my feet and find anything else to work on when possible.

    Eventually I plan to have an image gallery up and running with albums for all the different projects I've done over the years, but right now, that's just a dead link. lol

    My web site is progressing at roughly the same rate that my '36 is.

    Very sad indeed. :(
     
  27. pimpin paint
    Joined: May 31, 2005
    Posts: 4,937

    pimpin paint
    Member
    from so cal

    Hey Randy,

    I can't see a reason in hell why ya ought to be gunshy about posting pictures of the "Tin/Aluminum Indian" & Willys tooling or the finished parts
    you've produced with your press! They look "very topdrawer" & pro-like!

    I was never so dumbfounded as when I saw pictures of some of the Italian coachbuilders (Carrozzeria Ghia, PininFarina, Scaglietti & Vignale) tooling for the production of bodies. Crude wooden bucks, yes tree stumps , & bits of what looked like rail track. Over these groups of young kids would beat small sheets into shape, the older more skilled metalworkers would except or reject these panel as they were fitted to the master buck. I think it was PininFarina that was one of the first of the Italians to move into pressformed panels. A good number of the smaller coachbuider's work was still produced up into the 60's by hand. Their work was fitted to cars that now bring 4-6 million dollars at auction!

    Swankey Devils C.C.
    "A Legend In His Own Basement"
     
  28. jhnarial
    Joined: Mar 18, 2007
    Posts: 410

    jhnarial
    Member
    from MISSOURI

    I was reading on Metal Meet this morning,there was a thread asking how to take a pattern for a floor board patch.So he could send the pattern out to a professional to make the patches for him.For some reason this thread caught my interest.I guess it was because,I couldn't understand why he wouldn't at least try to make them for himself.

    The more I thought about it the more I understood.I'm betting he figures he needs a brake,slip roll, and a bead roller.So he probably figures instead of spending $1500 on tools he will just pay someone.Or that is what I am guessing.

    So I thought I would try to make a floor board patch with a minimal amount of tools.


    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~

    I drew up a pattern,like the drivers side he showed.
    quill holder 191.jpg


    Next I cut out where the beads will be on the floor board patch.
    quill holder 195.jpg

    Then I got a piece of plywood and marked out were the pattern will sit.

    quill holder 197.jpg

    quill holder 198.jpg

    Next I placed the pattern on the plywood and painted through the cut out for the beads.

    quill holder 199.jpg

    quill holder 200.jpg

    I then used a router with a 3/4'' fluting bit.From the center of the fluting bit to the edge of the router table is 3''.So from center of the bead,I moved over 3'' and placed a straight edge.Then routered out the flutes.

    quill holder 203.jpg

    quill holder 204.jpg

    quill holder 205.jpg

    Then I placed a piece of 19g sheet metal on top of the plywood and then toped that with the pattern.Then I made a cocking tool out of a piece of oak.On both sides of the flute I clamped down some metal and beat the sheet metal down into the flutes.
    quill holder 208.jpg

    quill holder 210.jpg

    quill holder 211.jpg
    After I pulled the sheet metal away from the plywood it was a little warped.I took a piece of wood and beat down the sheet metal around all of the flutes and returned to being flat.I forgot to take a picture of that.

    I then cut the pattern placed it on the sheet metal and cut it out as well.Then I needed to roll one edge.I just clamped a pipe to it and hammered it over.The roll over went above the fold line so I just cut a v notch to allow it to fold over.

    quill holder 219.jpg

    quill holder 223.jpg

    To fold over the front half I just clamped down a straight edge and folded it over and welded the v notch.

    quill holder 226.jpg

    WA la floor patch ready to be welded in.Its not perfect and I wouldn't use this method on the outside of the car but this is the floor board it's going to be covered with carpet.

    I know this is like cutting a tree down with a hand saw but if you don't have the tools you have to make do with what you have.
    <!-- / message --><!-- attachments -->
    <!-- / attachments --><!-- sig -->__________________
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2009
  29. CoolHand
    Joined: Aug 31, 2007
    Posts: 1,928

    CoolHand
    Alliance Vendor

    Pics no workie.

    Would be wonderful if they would though, sounds interesting.

    EDIT:

    Excellent write up!

    I've seen Kent White do something very similar with the routed under form, but instead of a cocking tool and hammer, he used an air chisel with a UHMW Polyurethane bumper affixed to the nose of a tool shank.

    It worked just like you did, but in seemingly no time at all. It was a very cool demonstration.

    Yours was too, thanks for posting it.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2009

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