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Technical Lead additive

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by chriscarp1950, Jul 2, 2022.

  1. moparboy440
    Joined: Sep 30, 2011
    Posts: 952

    moparboy440
    Member
    from Finland

    Last edited: Jul 3, 2022
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  2. tomcat11
    Joined: Mar 31, 2010
    Posts: 443

    tomcat11
    Member

    I'm still a bit skeptical. Any "Scientific Research" can be manipulated for specific outcomes. Certainly there are chemicals in fuels that are not good for you, Toluene for one. Back in the day we mechanics did not know any better and were exposed to gasoline fumes and liquid all the time. When I was a kid I used to put Lead split shot in my mouth and used my teeth to crimp them on my fishing line. I did that for years. I have even welded Lead for weeks at a time. They say the affects are cumulative. That may be true but your going to have to eat a hell of a lot of lead for any affect. I have none. They even outlawed it in modern engine bearings which kind of sucks. Tetraethyl Lead is of course a chemical compound derived from lead.

    Your right with hardened seats we don't need it. Lead has a lot of good uses. Just don't shoot me with it.
     
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  3. Budget36
    Joined: Nov 29, 2014
    Posts: 9,966

    Budget36
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Isn’t there a “lip” that the valve seat is against? I ask because how can a seat go back in a 1/4 inch?
    I’ve never seen a set of heads (or flat style engines) without seats, is why I’m asking.
     
  4. HOTRODNORSKIE
    Joined: Nov 29, 2011
    Posts: 219

    HOTRODNORSKIE
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I use it because it's cheap insurance. Talked to a few engine builders and they called bullshit on the stuff,one said if your just messing around town don't worry about it. I feel if you think you need it use it.
     
  5. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 21,383

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    That you know of, so far.

    You many never know exactly to be able to answer the question truthfully. If you go out hard at the end, it might be that.

    Researchers found that adults age 44 and older with high lead levels (6.7 µg/dL) had a 37 percent greater risk of death from any cause and 70 percent greater risk of death from cardiovascular disease than those without elevated blood levels.

    It has been linked to earlier and faster cognitive decline in the elderly (Alzheimer’s and Parkinson’s), and impaired renal function (kidney disease/failure). There are links to bone strength issues (think fall/broken hips, etc.)

    Over half of adults in the US alive today were exposed to adverse lead levels in childhood. We just don't know yet how many of us will be taken out by this, until after it happens.

    Research into disease causality is poorly funded in the US. Research scientists are not well paid (I know more than a dozen, and I out earn any three of them, combined). There is no "secret plot" to manipulate the evidence to show that something is a neurotoxin and had immense negative effects of Human development and health.

    There is literally no way to treat anyone for Lead exposure, so there is no money to be made there.

    I was raised with lead pipes, lead paint, and leaded gas. I have measurable damage directly attributed to it. If my exposure and my genetics hold, I might not live past my 60's, and I am in my 50's.

    I will continue to trust the thousands of scientists that have studied this, and published hundreds of studies that have all independently come to the same conclusion, and then were peer-reviewed by other scientists who were each able to independently recreate the very same results.

    There is not a debate in the scientific community about this, only by randos on the internet.

    Aerosolizing Lead is not a "freedom and liberty" thing. We only get one air to breathe.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2022
  6. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 21,383

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Hardened seats, and the installation thereof, are cheap.

    Life is not.

    I cannot, and will not abide by the "I have no problems, so screw everyone else" stance on this issue.
     
  7. tomcat11
    Joined: Mar 31, 2010
    Posts: 443

    tomcat11
    Member

    True. It could be that or something else we cannot prove. We are all going out hard. I'm now in my 60's and I hope we are both on the HAMB dragging this ole thread up 30 years from now.
     
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  8. tomcat11
    Joined: Mar 31, 2010
    Posts: 443

    tomcat11
    Member

    No one said that. So please don't quote it.
     
  9. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 21,383

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    This is settled science. Only you are still trying to have a debate here.

    Your are trying to negotiate with truth. That is a fool's errand.
     
  10. I have no problem admitting I’m good with lead not being used in fuel, paint or pipes

    avoiding having to need it is easy and cheap.


    And I don’t need research to back that up.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2022
  11. tomcat11
    Joined: Mar 31, 2010
    Posts: 443

    tomcat11
    Member

    I merely said I was skeptical and speaking from personal experience. That's all. Call it "Settled science" or whatever you want. At one time the world was thought to be flat and regarded as "Settled science". So maybe they proved it's a neurotoxin. So what, doesn't mean that's what's going to kill you. You can believe what ever peer reviewed studies or so called scientists you want. They are often later proven wrong, flawed or found to have an agenda or financial motivation. I have a healthy skepticism which is a good thing. I certainly don't live in fear of lead or anything else. Carry on
     
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  12. Harv
    Joined: Jan 16, 2008
    Posts: 560

    Harv
    Member
    from Sydney

    In valve seat recession, the seat doesn't move. The valve "eats" the seat because there is no lead lubricant between the valve and seat as they slam together. The valve embeds itself a little deeper into the seat over time. The flow past the seat gets all messed up because your nice porting and 3-angle valve job is now all funky. You lose rocker clearance, and risk burning valves out once they get "too tight" on the clearance.

    Cheers,
    Harv
     
  13. tomcat11
    Joined: Mar 31, 2010
    Posts: 443

    tomcat11
    Member

    Was Tetraethyl lead added to gasoline specifically for valve seat lubricity or was that a positive bye product of researchers trying to find a solution to knock?
     
  14. jimmy six
    Joined: Mar 21, 2006
    Posts: 12,181

    jimmy six
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    Whether it’s good or not… not good to touch with exposed skin or even breathe. Our company had some which I “borrowed” and added to normal gasoline. 1 oz to 5 gallons and used it when drag racing an 11-1 compression engine. Made the plugs very hard to read with the porcelain turning orange and the ground got fuzzy. Another older racer took it off my hands..
     
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  15. Jack Rice
    Joined: Dec 2, 2020
    Posts: 207

    Jack Rice
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    When I got my 330 Desoto hemi the previous owner didn't know if it had hardened seats. Since it was a good runner I installed it in my 36 pickup "as is" and just add lead substitute to the gas tank.
     
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  16. Budget36
    Joined: Nov 29, 2014
    Posts: 9,966

    Budget36
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I can see/understand that (erosion of the seat). But if a valve recessed a 1/4 inch, would there be any seat left?
    Just by eyeballing (not measuring) that would have the valve into the head or block?
     
  17. Harv
    Joined: Jan 16, 2008
    Posts: 560

    Harv
    Member
    from Sydney

    TEL was added to gasoline to increase octane number, and hence prevent knock. I suspect the lubricity was a byproduct.

    Cheers,
    Harv
     
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  18. twenty8
    Joined: Apr 8, 2021
    Posts: 1,330

    twenty8
    Member

    It was inevitable that this subject would degenerate into some "heated discussion".

    There's this:
    "Can lead poisoning make you aggressive?
    Lead poisoning is associated with attention deficit disorder, impulsiveness, aggression and, according to one paper, psychopathy."

    ..... and the fact that we are a group of guys that hang around cars a lot and grew up during the leaded fuel age.;)

     
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  19. G-son
    Joined: Dec 19, 2012
    Posts: 1,079

    G-son
    Member
    from Sweden

    From what I've read, it was originally used to increase the octane rating. The valves & seats lasting much longer was just a happy accident, but they liked that and kept using it.
     
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  20. mrspeedyt
    Joined: Sep 26, 2009
    Posts: 933

    mrspeedyt
    Member

    haven’t used a lead additive...maybe i’ve been lucky so far. the 67 cad motor in my 41 cad still doing fine. and i don’t think it’s ever been rebuilt ever.

    my folks lived to their mid 80s and both basically lived their entire lives in the socal LA area with the bad air, gas, water, paint, chemicals all around them. and so far i’ve made it to 72.
     
  21. yellow dog
    Joined: Oct 15, 2011
    Posts: 501

    yellow dog
    Member
    from san diego

    If involved with motorsports, the lead and various carcinogen exposure is available by just attending the venue. If anybody cares the attached is a list of VP's leaded and unleaded blends.

    https://vpracingfuels.com/master-fuel-tables/

    Nitromethane, toluene, E85, E10 motor fuels virtually all available for various carcinogen exposures.
    DNA and exposure probably have some part to play
     
  22. 427 sleeper
    Joined: Mar 8, 2017
    Posts: 1,962

    427 sleeper
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Unless you live your entire life in a bubble, you're going to die from something directly or indirectly related to the environment, it's that simple, no use wasting time worrying about it! Live life to the fullest and enjoy what's around you! Now, can we please get back to the original topic of this thread?
     
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  23. clem
    Joined: Dec 20, 2006
    Posts: 3,773

    clem
    Member

    I use this - (for better or for worse……)
    60483EB5-26A4-43D2-A5D0-C6072D95D7A6.png
     
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  24. PhilA
    Joined: Sep 6, 2018
    Posts: 1,722

    PhilA
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Nope, but I had to rebuild a couple smaller 4-bangers that had eaten their valve seats.
    So yeah, it does happen (and you can see it in some cars that run liquefied petroleum gas as a cheaper alternative to gasoline for the same reason, a hotter burn) but most of the susceptible engines have hardened seats available.

    Side note, which is the zinger, the engines that had failed the valve sealing surfaces had all done many high speed miles before failure.
    So, if you just putz about you really won't notice much. Just tweak the timing out a touch and drive.

    Phil
     
  25. dwollam
    Joined: Oct 22, 2012
    Posts: 1,857

    dwollam
    Member

    @Harv is right. Octane boost, lube was side effect.

    Dave
     
  26. Kerrynzl
    Joined: Jun 20, 2010
    Posts: 2,468

    Kerrynzl
    Member

    If you need an Octane Boost , simply blend Toluene into your gas. 30-40%
    Toluene has a RON octane rating of 121 and a MON rating of 107.

    It will require a slightly rich jetting sizes.
     
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  27. I heard that the lead additive was originally brought out for the farmers 4 cyl tractors and was first available at the tractor supply houses .Seems 4 cyl. are more susceptible to sunken valves
     
  28. blowby
    Joined: Dec 27, 2012
    Posts: 8,656

    blowby
    Member
    from Nicasio Ca

  29. jaracer
    Joined: Oct 4, 2008
    Posts: 1,746

    jaracer
    Member

    You say no effects, but you fool with old cars. I'm not sure that's completely sane.
     
  30. Roothawg
    Joined: Mar 14, 2001
    Posts: 23,338

    Roothawg
    Member

    My uncle used to own a machine shop. He said that he would add the lead additives to keep
    From having to install hardened seats. He had said that the race fuel still had lead similar to 100LL. Never researched it see if he was right.
     

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