Technical Lacquer Paint Questionnaire

Thanks to everyone on the technical stuff, but please I don't want this to turn into a debate on quality or brand name driven issues. I am curious on what people want or demand with their lacquer. I manufacture coatings, I can make paint do everything but spray itself on for you, we have a extreme weather chamber to test different paint technologies, I can make lacquer not crows foot, crack etc , I can float some acrylic in to give durability, but bottom line is what does the typical guy spraying lacquer looking for, what process do they go through?
Its a niche market, and I just want a general consensus on how the coating needs to perform and that will tell me whether its worth the our time for product development, picking a few of you guys to test and give results, then we will build a small 40 gallon batch of the binder to build off our mixing system, and watch the dust collect on the cans lol (i hope not)

 

Paint Guru, you asked about buffing, Yes . I always used std rubbing compound after working up to a 1200 grit wet sand. Orange peel is gonna happen with an old Binx, never sprayed it with a gravity feed gun, so I don't know how that would go. I like the look of Nitro, however if the topcoat was a little more workable with much the same result, who knows. A run with some fine cut cleaner and A very light buff with Meguiers hand rubbing compound would do a lot. Wait a few days and rub the holy crap out of it with the glaze. Seemed like you would wait to wax for about a month or so. Never had a cracking or webbing problem, however prep is key. Fish eye was my worst enemy and it seemed to show up on lacquer more often, and it could have just been me. One trick I used was to mix color in my first couple of clear coats, that way when wet sanding or buffing, you knew if you overworked an area. Hope that helps.

 

Drying time, purge time, tack free, dust free, tape free, all related to when the next coat is applied or when it's done to the point of 'walk away' for now or denotes complete. This may be one area where lacquer use can be superior to that of other materials because it really does that quickly. Pile on too much though and it may never do it, or take dozens of heat/sun cycles and maybe several months. Even sanded to open it up and release the solvents, if a slow dry solvent was used in an effort to keep it smoother you'll find it get a little glossy overnight as that vapor sort of "flows" the top surface again, it rehardens, traps the remains until done again. I still have a tool called a "Posi-Pen" that can measure the mil thickness of material applied to body sheet metal. The loose rule was a maximum of 15 mils was safe on a refinish once complete and polished. Each job would put about 5-6 mils on the part, some O.E.M. finishes were even less. It's a simple calibrated magnetic pen with a small gauge reading scale. Today's material can put on over 5 mils in 2 coats (!) but that material has a different resilience than fully finished lacquer. I've said before that as an analogy, 'thanes/enamels can be considered lexan, lacquer is glass, nitrocellulose lacquer is crystal.

Some things get taken out of context over time especially when processes change. Things like the colloquial "...30 coats of hand-rubbed..." was just a way to emphasize the extra measure of finish quality on something. It didn't mean that 30 coats were still on it, and within those 30 coats was solvent that evaporated, and of those 30 coats maybe 12-15 were really left after cut and buff, and those were probably at best a 1/2 mil once fully purged of solvent. The ones that really had 30 coats left on are the cracked ones where an error in judgement was applied right next to too much mil thickness. I also recently got a dose of shock and awe, and not in a good way. I asked for a quote on a gallon of PPG DDL 9700 black lacquer. Right in the neighborhood of $400.00!!! Holy shit!! A quart of PPG DCA 468 (acrylic lac clear) is $88.00. If you embark upon that lacquer trip to the old look and process thinking of savings, well not in their product line. There may be more economical lacquers out there but tread softly and buy a little bit 1st for spray outs. The inherent quality of the material must be there or even the most sage finishers will experience failure. Like film build and additional purge times using HVLP systems, lacquer must be of good quality in order to perform both in application and longevity.

 

@Paint Guru , i used some lacquer, that i bought from the cabinet manufacturer, to paint some custom stuff and trim when i redid my kitchen. it used a hardener and sprayed out perfect. it laid flat. is that stuff the same as car paint?

 

threads are better with pictures.
painted my dash using lacquer. both black and white were the same brand [ppg] same thinner, same gun, same painter [me] same shop, same air, same weather close to the same wait time, i painted white first. the white buffed different than the black. it was more "rubbery". came out fine.
anyone know why?

 

Well, if you've never sprayed or buffed lacquer, how can you call yourself a paint guru!
LOL.. just kidding!
I'm no expert, just a home hobbyist who's usually done my own bodywork and paint because I can't afford to pay someone good! But I've messed around with lacquer enough to throw my three cents in. When I painted my old '39 Ford sedan about 25 years ago, I did it one piece at a time just like the old song says. The body shell (minus doors and deck lid) was epoxy primed but the color was PPG DDL-9300 black lacquer because I had a gallon and a half or so on the shelf in my garage that was who-knows how old and I wanted to put it to use. Reduced it just like the instructions said, sprayed maybe three or four good heavy coats using regular old DTL16 reducer. Propped the garage door open with a box fan turned on high to exhaust the overspray. When I was done everything in the garage was covered with a fine black dust anyway but it swept up and wiped off. Let the paint cure for a few weeks, and color sanded in the driveway with about the finest wet or dry (1000 grit I think it was?) wrapped around one of those flexible rubber squeegees we used to use for spreading glazing putty, and the hose trickling water on it. Then just hand-rubbed the thing, in straight strokes following the contours of the body panels because I didn't want to burn the paint with a power buffer like I'd done numerous times on other cars. So I used progressively finer rubbing compound, and finished up with the old standby Meguiars #7. I think it turned out okay for a home-brew job.


Like I said, I'm just a home garage guy with no secret techniques or tricks so lacquer is definitely D-I-Y friendly and there is a market for it. For me, if you could somewhat match how the old PPG Duracryl lacquer performed I'd be satisfied and I think most people that would use lacquer would still expect to buff it to bring out the best shine. I'm also contemplating lacquer for my current project '64 Chevy II. I'm thinking about returning it to its original color. Lacquer is what GM originally used, and I will not hesitate to order the paint online or from an outside source if possible because nobody local supplies lacquer anymore. So I'll be watching this thread too. Thanks for seeking the input.

 

No, its not the same, wood finish has a different ph balance, I have a 2k lacquer for wood application there are some that cross over to automotive but its in the resin the paint manufacture buys not so much for end user. most anything for refurbishing cabinets has to be built to not react with the glue used in the building process, and it usually doesn't react with a lot of stains.

 

thanks!

 

I hand rub it as well, I'm not in a big hurry, and I'm too chicken to go after it with a buffer. PPG Duracryl is also what I have used in the past.

 

28 year old lacquer job on dad's ol' 55. Dusty old gm dealership body bay. Looks as good today as ever. Binks #7, Dupont Lucite, used retarder to lay down last coats, 1950s Souix polisher with huge wool pad, 202s & 101s Dupont rubbing compounds looks like new any time I feel like polishing. This stuff lasts great when applied properly. took from post "our 55 then & now" Added cragars 20 years ago
Sir I would definitely buy your lacquer for my future projects! Flux

 

Yep, when you buff paint by hand it's pretty tough to go fast enough to burn anything!!
(And there's nothing quite like a hand job.... )
We now return you to our regularly-scheduled survey.

 

Sometimes I wish more people wouldn't think I was a paint guru and I could enjoy a day with a cell phone that goes straight to voicemail! Lol
A job like that, you don't need to hire anybody else! Looks great!

 

[QUOTE="theHIGHLANDER, post: I asked for a quote on a gallon of PPG DDL 9700 black lacquer. Right in the neighborhood of $400.00!!! Holy shit!! A quart of PPG DCA 468 (acrylic lac clear) is $88.00. If you embark upon that lacquer trip to the old look and process thinking of savings, well not in their product line. There may be more economical lacquers out there but tread softly and buy a little bit 1st for spray outs. The inherent quality of the material must be there or even the most sage finishers will experience failure. Like film build and additional purge times using HVLP systems, lacquer must be of good quality in order to perform both in application and longevity.[/QUOTE]

Wow, depending on the Paint Jobber it should retail around $85-$150 gallon. And that will be using all premium resin and solvents. It just depends on if one of the lacquer resins that is the right voc will sand and buff as requested. But still, no way will it get to even $200/gallon. The clear, it will probably be the same binder used to mix the color. Probably shouldn't share pricing, but if you guys think pricing is out of line, would appreciate the input as well.

 

I'd be down with it but can the product be shipped to California?

 

I know I will have to have it shipped to Sumas or Bellingham WA and drive across the border and pick it up. They wont ship it over the border, but you can bring it in yourself.

 

I just painted my 51 AD in Lacquer and Enamel. The top is Lacquer and bottom is Enamel. The interior is gray and is also painted in Lacquer. I would have went all Lacquer but the Restoration Shop doesn't sell Lacquer to California Residents anymore and Paint for the Cars (Trinity) didn't have the skyblue that I wanted so I did a blend and I am happy with it.

 

Yes, because I don't want to build it unless I can get it to a 3.5 voc or less. California is 3.5 for color topcoat but 2.1 for clear, so I would probably do a separate 2.1 lacquer clear.

 

Those VOC regs may be why the PPG is so costly? Remember, earlier in this thread I mentioned that their black and clear is the same formula/chemical make up for at least 40 yrs. I don't know, not an authority in that sense. I just put the shit on
Hey paint guru, I'm known as Jocko McNeal in my sandbox. Been in the restoration/custom finishing schtick for more than 40 years, sprayed my 1st complete at age 14. Told the ol man "I wanna paint it" so he handed me the gun and said "Here, don't fuck it up." and for the most part I didn't. Got 1 sag on the front fender, it was a 62 Ford unibody PU. Poppy Red Ditzler alkyd enamel, he dragged his finger across it and said keep going. Had the finisher monkey on my back ever since. If I can help you in any way PM me and we'll swap emails. And for the record, thanks for bringing these topics up. Gives a large community a better outlook on this gig.

 

Not enough to justify the price imo. Your regular solvents vs compliant solvents will only add about an additional $10-$20 to a gallon of paint. But I guess once you figure mark up that could add a significant amount to the price. One paint company I worked for one time, how they figured pricing was for OEM take cost x2, jobber price was cost x 4, refinisher was cost x 8 so I guess you take $10 in solvent, that's an extra $80/gallon for a end user.

 

Gallon of Orbital Orange (GM) goes for ?

 

I always loved R M Alpha cryl
thinned her with carters 201 unless it was really hot then we used carters 199
never liked dtl 16 thinner
we always had a gun full of Co loid a laq red velvet primer
dont build blk up too fast or it will crowsfoot imeadeatly
we never liked ditzler blk because it looked brown
ac ry lac finishing blk was the blackest for acrylic
they didnt make 1000 grit yet so we wet sanded with 600
3 m machine compound on a schlegl 880
liquid ebony on a schlegl 904
then lots of H#7
its a beautiful look
no plastic paint can duplicate
B

 

I am curious as to why the Restoration Shop (TCP Global) says it' cannot sell Lacquer paint to California and yet I can go to any local parts store and buy quarts of DupliColor's Painshop Lacquer paint. I can order a gallon of Lacquer paint from Paint for Cars and I can go the the local Auto paint and Body store and buy a gallon of Lacquer primer. So what gives??

 

It has to do with the quanity of paint they sell is why Duplicolor can sell lacquer as I was told.Don't know if that is true but that is what was told me.But never had orange peel on my lacquer job but I'm not a pro just a back yard person,Try to call you next week Guru

 

A lot of times if you are like TCP, PPG has whats called a Platinum Plus Jobber Store. They give you extra discounts to a paint store to not put any other brand of paint in, and sell their line exclusively. So if PPG lacquer is not 3.5 VOC, they can't sell into California, because they don't have a alternative. And Duplicolor is owned by Sherwin Williams, so that would be a big no no, you will find a lot of auto paint stores will not carry multiple product lines, especially the larger they are. I don't understand that.

 

Back when lacquer was "good" you could cut it so fine without excess paper build up that it could be buffed with final glaze and a Souix 1211 bonnet/pad. My glaze when I started doing this was, and still is, Meguires #3. Before the intro of 3000 paper I used to save worn out 2000 for that purpose. I'm not certain of the molecular structure except what was told to me by my tech guy, the removal of what he called trace metals. As mentioned before in some topics that became tutorials of sorts, the use of mild soap for additional lubrication helps prevent the dreaded "squeek" of melted material scratching your hard work. In it's best days most lacquer, with the exception of clear, wouldn't build up even without soap. Just a steady stream of water and it was all good. Going way back, old timers used corn starch as a swirl remover but we have a cornucopia of such product today and many of them do really well. Whatever has to be done to bring that characteristic back and be able to market it in our environmental PC world should be a winner. I was also told by my tech guy that many base coats are nearly the same as lacquer in it's early days of base/clear use. True, false, or something in between? I know there's only a finite number of plasticizers, binders and solvents in the industry so I thought it might contain a modecum of truth.


Hey Darrel, diggin the Motor wheels. Don't see those very often.

 

Laquer looks great on those sharp body lines from early 60's. It lays on those lines well.

That said I Would like a laquer that is easy to level and buff out. Maybe something along the lines of a paint and special compound to use on that paint. Almost a three step system.

 

I like to shoot lacquer, I think its because that's what I grew up with.

I have not shot any nitrocellulose since the very early '70s so acrylic is normal for me. I don't buff unless I have to, if you rub it between coats and are in practice spraying your last coats buffing is not really necessary.

That said I almost hang a sag in it when I am hitting it wet and heavy, so I almost always wind up buffing it after a good rubbing to make the dag go away. I use Dupont stuff, it comes in a can and is a liquid past. I recognize the can but I don't remember what it is actually called, it is a rubbing compound and not a glazing compound. I seldom do more than that, my stuff is all driver quality.

 

Just looked , the last can of cdompoun i have left is martin-senour white-6360 , IIRC it cut pretty quick..
dave

 

This^^

 

Kinda off-topic for the thread, but flux, I saw your Monte on another thread, and thought "DAAAAMN that looks good!"