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Technical Lacquer Paint Questionnaire

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Paint Guru, Jan 7, 2016.

  1. Paint Guru
    Joined: Sep 9, 2015
    Posts: 522

    Paint Guru
    Member
    from Bowdon, GA

    We are getting a lot more request in recent years for lacquer, we are considering building a lacquer binder for our mixing system but I don't spray lacquer, never buffed lacquer, so input would be greatly appreciated.
    So my question is for people who prefer lacquer:
    Do you buff? What compounds and what type pad are you using?
    If it was a different type lacquer(not nitrocellulose) that would create a greater depth of image without buffing, would that be preferable, or more the original lacquer look be more adequate?
    How fast do you like it to dry?
    What VOC is the lacquer you buy? (We thought doing in 3.5 that way its legal in more areas)

    Thanks in advance!
     
  2. henryj1951
    Joined: Sep 23, 2012
    Posts: 2,306

    henryj1951
    Member
    from USA

    tag for interest :cool:
     
  3. Also going to follow. I am going to be painting my truck in lacquer that I had sourced for me in California. I am going to guess from my research on it that most are going to be looking for acrylic lacquer unless the longevity of nitro can be improved but having said that it has to look like lacquer did back in the day. I would guess other than needing to meet concourse requirements the only reason most guys are using it is for that originality and that lacquer look. I can tell you from experience the vast majority of people will look at you like you are crazy for not using longer life modern paints. I also found that buffing is a requirement of any current or past lacquers. Most lacquers seem to be 100-200% reduction so the VOC s are off the chart on them hence the reason they are banned most places. I am far from an expert just info I have found out in my search for lacquer. I look forward to seeing what you find out. Good luck!
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2016
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  4. henryj1951
    Joined: Sep 23, 2012
    Posts: 2,306

    henryj1951
    Member
    from USA

    i always said it was an ALIVE paint and when it dulled/faded ya give it a hair cut(buff) .:cool:
     
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  5. I always liked lacquer because it was so forgiving. That was in the mid--late 70's. Lacquer was cool then, not so much now with the masses. I would prefer to use it now. It's less dangerous and cleans up easy in my opinion. And yeah, all the fun was the buffing. You get to see the result of all that prep. Back then we sanded with 600, used red compound and then white. That's changed a lot now however. Tim
     
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  6. Slopok
    Joined: Jan 30, 2012
    Posts: 2,919

    Slopok
    Member

    Back in 1982 I painted my Merc at home with R-M Alpha-Cryl acrylic lacquer with a Binks #7 gun and a 2 HP Craftsman 20 gallon tank air compressor with no water trap and no gauge at the gun, just a little cheater valve to control air pressure til it sounded right. It was reduced 1 to 1 1/4 with mid temp thinner sprayed in June. I had purchased 1 gallon of paint and used 6 3/4 quarts of reduced paint to paint the entire car going easy on the front as I had planned to have the flames painted after words. The dry time is controlled by the thinner, fast for cold temp, mid for mid temp and slow for high temps. Nothing is more forgiving than lacquer in my opinion for the home diy.
    When I painted mine the paint had dripped from the vent hole on top of the gun and then I hit the air hose on the side of the car. I shoot to almost the point of running (wet) so as to minimize the orange peel. When I opened the garage door to ventilate those of you who are familiar with Cottonwood trees will understand, they flew in and stuck to the wet paint as if it had been Tarred & Feathered. Wish I had pictures. At that point all you can do is walk away and wait. Well after several days I wet sanded it out with 1,000 grit (finest they had at the time) and Ivory soap and it looked fine. I used a wool pad on a Milwaukee buffer with 3M Imperial polish and then hand glazed it. After 34 years it still looks ALMOST as nice as when first completed. As a matter of fact just this last October I used the old remaining quart of paint to refinish the deck lid with some cheap thinner from Menards and it came out very nice. I have never used the base coat clear coat systems that are in use today. If I were to give it a good wax job you would be hard pressed to think that it wasn't painted recently.
     
  7. nwbhotrod
    Joined: Oct 13, 2009
    Posts: 1,243

    nwbhotrod
    Member
    from wash state

    Tell us more I want to learn all I can about shooting Lacquer
     
  8. theHIGHLANDER
    Joined: Jun 3, 2005
    Posts: 10,230

    theHIGHLANDER
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    My oh my, where to begin? Lacquer was always the standard of custom finishes when I began pulling the trigger on the old MBC siphon feed. I could answer your questionnaire in order but it's not in sync with the process. Surely you know that but what the hell, right?

    I've been pretty much a die hard Ditzler/PPG shooter for the majority of my years in this part of the game. The lacquer of choice when I started was acrylic (I'm not THAT old :eek: ). With metallic colors reduction was at least 150%, some colors a bit more. Too much reduction and the color would get too bright or washed out, too little that lumpy metallic look you're no doubt familiar with. For solvent it's temperature dependent, but even so a slower thinner (higher temp than required) could net an easier finish to level out. As time went on much of the trace metals were getting removed from it and drying times became a game of hit and miss. Pastels and bright solids (reds and blues) actually didn't "dry" completely. Heat would also soften the material making the cut and buff all but impossible. This was in the early 90s and we chose to drop lacquer from our radar completely and switched to the system I still greatly miss, PPG's DAU Deltron system. It handled and sprayed like enamels of the time but cured to a nearly rock hard surface with less "cellulite" as seen in the current crop of urethane materials. DAU 82 Delglo clear was an invincible material and could be applied over anything. It was also as repairable as lacquer in so far as you could blend it with a melt of solvent and net a perfect repair. It was isocyanate based so it went bye-bye some time in the mid/late 90s. But back to lacquer, the other negative was the amount of liquid consumed considering the solvent requirements, the amount of coating required to cut and polish, the lack of efficiency in the spray guns of the time and subsequent costs of such consumption and, frankly, waste. Trying to reduce the number of coats by applying it heavier would net solvent pop and other maladies common to unprofessional short cuts.

    This comes at a timely fashion for me. We just shot 2 fenders in PPG DDL 9700 black lacquer. We used it because that's what was on the car. Now using HVLP equipment these days, a simple gun adjustment and deft application allowed us to apply 8 coats vs the normal 12+ if using a siphon feed with lower efficiency. We also used the slowest solvent available and just monitored the purge and flash times well. With today's equipment it has to be longer on both counts, the rate of the solvent and the flash/purge time. On to the cut and polish, those of us who've done both over time sort of long for the process compared to finishing today's 'thanes. The sanding goes like any other process, however, due to the hardness of the material it sands faster and smoother. Go through the 1200-2000-3000 steps and you're nearly home before the wheel comes out. I personally DO NOT use compound. The grit can damage your work when you clean up for the glazing and finish portion of the job. Long ago I switched to using Meguire's #3 for the compound process, applied with a wool pad. No scratches and simple polishing cloth clean up, with the wool enough to cut the 3000 scratches. The final step is a soft foam pad but this is where machine work gets tricky. Too much time and speed, the foam pad will melt lacquer faster than you can say "oh shit..." so it demands a conservative approach. For any areas that we typically have to hand polish the rewards are exponentially better than the same needs in urethane.

    I'm not totally sure this is what you're looking for. Lacquer has a look and depth that's not often achieved with urethane materials. The leveling comes easy which is what makes such deep reflections. For today's base/clear systems the base colors, and in fact sometimes the sealers, need to be fully leveled before the clear gets applied. This usually requires an additional sanding and re-color application before clear to remove that cellulite look that shows more from a distance than right up on it. Even in a lacquer base/clear application all the coats melt together when applied so that surface you create is all the way down to the substrate. The last negative quality of lacquer is the required care and feeding. Go too long without waxing/glazing and it will check and chalk sooner than later. Film build has to be considered as well. Too much, too thick, as the metal or fiberglass expands and contracts with temp changes the brittle nature of lacquer will reveal itself in short order. When nothing but the the deepest looking glass finish will do lacquer is a tough act to follow. It's not impossible to get with urethane but it can be nearly twice the work to do so. If I can answer anything more detailed I'll be happy to.
     
  9. Paint Guru
    Joined: Sep 9, 2015
    Posts: 522

    Paint Guru
    Member
    from Bowdon, GA

    I can get around voc laws, because you can put in your tech sheet low voc reducer, I can use exempt solvents to keep voc low, now if you used a ton of non complaint reducer, thats really on the end user.
    One thing that scares me with it, is the lacquer thinner sold now is full of methanol, so back in the day I can see where there were no issues with hazing or blistering, now with the economy thinners made, that would turn the lacquer to shit.
    The lacquer you found in CA does it give buffing recommendations?
     
  10. Paint Guru
    Joined: Sep 9, 2015
    Posts: 522

    Paint Guru
    Member
    from Bowdon, GA

    Highlander, what was your optimal flash time between coats? I can slow the paint side down to within 20 secs of optimum flash time.
    Your lacquer would soften back up with heat? that sounds more like a enamel, I could fix that and I could fix cracking as well.
    When you reduced your lacquer, was it as thin as today's reduced basecoat?
    Would you prefer a harder dry paint film?

    As far as lacquer having that slick look, I will share this picture of my single stage urethane right out of the gun, no buffing, its hard to believe anything can get slicker than that, its not a pic of a hamb friendly car, I will give credit where credit is due, this was sprayed by Mcleod Automotive in Ft Valley GA with a Tekna spray gun. But was/is the average lacquer paint job this slick, or did it have to be buffed to that sheen?
     

    Attached Files:

  11. flatmotor40
    Joined: Apr 14, 2010
    Posts: 621

    flatmotor40
    Member
    from georgia

    Guru as I told you on the phone I shot my 55 Chevy with Dupont Lucite from Body Supply and it was great back in the 80's.Shoot 3 coats let dry overnight and 600 wet and shoot 3 more next day then make sure panels are straight.Clear and last coat of clear double thin and put on wet to almost run stage.Not much buffing after that.And you have unlimited pot life with color and clear.Hate this 2 part with hardener.If you get by I still have the 55 and Model A painted with Lacquer.
     
  12. cheepsk8
    Joined: Sep 5, 2011
    Posts: 640

    cheepsk8
    Member
    from west ky

    I 'm in. When I first started in the body business, Imron paints were just beginning to edge out the acrylic lacquer and single stage enamels of the day. I had of course, never been taught in trade school, how to paint with bc/cc. Like Slopok up above a few posts, I didn't have the best place to paint in. I painted almost exclusively with acrylic for panel repairs, cause to some extent, you could spot repair places if the factory paint wasn't faded all that bad. You have to remember , there was a lot of factory lacquer paint on the road. For an overall finisher these days, I'm not sure you can bring the under 50 crowd on board as easily. I love it , but I was 20 and it didn't hurt near as much to get on my knees and sand til my fingers hurt. All that said, I love a slick lacquer job, and you can tell when you are looking at one.
     
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  13. Paint Guru
    Joined: Sep 9, 2015
    Posts: 522

    Paint Guru
    Member
    from Bowdon, GA

    I think I have a old can of Lucite that I can run a viscosity test on. How was coverage? Did you have to spray 3 coats to get coverage? Do you have any old cans at your place? If you are around today I might come by and take a look at them.
    So definitely need a lacquer clear?
     
  14. theHIGHLANDER
    Joined: Jun 3, 2005
    Posts: 10,230

    theHIGHLANDER
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    On this recent application, best flash time was about 10 min. It was dry to the touch sooner but using an HVLP, we thought it best to wait at least that long. As we got to the last coats we waited up to 15 min.

    The lacquer that softened with heat was long ago. Frankly it was the last straw for us and I seldom went back to it except for certain colors (PPG has not changed their black or clear formulation for going on 40 yrs) like black or metallic. With solids and pastels I was informed that removal of the trace metals caused that condition of heat softening.

    Reduction percentages vary by color, like most anything really, but the ultimate reduction per color could be even thinner than base coats we use today. PPG DCA 468 clear needs a reduction of 200% in order to apply it "clean" without stringing or excess peel. Extended flash time are again used when applied with HVLP equipment to avoid solvent pop or solvent trapping.

    A harder film? That's at best a colloquial description, but a harder or more brittle film polishes easier and does indeed promote an ultimate reflection. I avoid PPG "Concept" urethane clear for this reason. Their 2021 is virtual punishment to a custom finisher. Work yourself to just sort of self abuse, only to come in and see the dreaded "die back" as many call it. What I see happening is that the sanding scratches are essentially laying down with the heat and pressure of the wheel, when they cool hours later or overnight they "stand back up" for lack of a better description. Yes, I have looked and studied why that product does it to near ridiculous levels. I now use DC 4000 "Velocity" clear to remove that issue. With a leveled base color and 4 coats of 4000 we can get as close to lacquer as possible in our final look. For what the main focus is in our shop it's important. Below are 2 refinishes done within the last few years. The silver is all lacquer, including the substrate as it was mainly a color change restoration. The dark grey is DBU base and DC 4000 clear. Not much difference in the final and long distance reflective values. Deep reflections need to be seen from a distance as well as up close to achieve what lacquer "was" in my opinion. Are we having fun yet?

    I came back to edit my thoughts on "harder film" surfaces. I would think the density of the product would have something to do with the resilience of the final coating. Surely there's some science regarding molecular structure and other technical bits of info, yet still, simply harder might take us back where we started with lacquers in the 1st place no matter what the end product is. Whether air dry or chemical reaction, too brittle could end up being less durable in use. Think stone chips behind the wheels or in the fronts of fenders. Our urethane mat'ls do a great job in that regard an can take a good beating, but a higher final density could go a long way toward an ultimate finish for those jobs that must go "all the way" and still provide acceptable abrasion resistance. I'm thinking about how easily cup remnants of 2021 bend when cured vs how easily the same amount of cured 4000 will break. Not very scientific, just some shop observations.
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2016
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  15. Paint Guru
    Joined: Sep 9, 2015
    Posts: 522

    Paint Guru
    Member
    from Bowdon, GA

    I can create a harder film without sacrificing impact resistance or "brittleness" but a harder film I personally feel would be harder to sand and buff but provide some scratch resistance and a little better exterior durability. What I will do is build both types and send samples out for testing.
    Your opinion of the 2021 clear, I find hilarious. I surveyed about 300 shops a few years back on what is the best clear easy to spray glamour clear, the number 1 clear was the 2021. Which goes to show it's so difficult to develop a one size fits all coating.
    Highlander if there were a lacquer out there that was better but wasn't made by (PPG) would you buy or is it more a brand loyalty thing?(which I don't disagree with, my success is based on my customers loyalty for me, and I have screwed some shit up lol)

    So in a nutshell when buying lacquer, you like to reduce almost piss thin (but could be sprayed thicker), with easy sanding and buffing characteristics, easy to spot in, and have a very deep shine with little to no peel. I might need to borrow someones fender to put a glossmeter on and get a reading! I think this is very attainable. Now when you sand lacquer did it powder up, or did it have a tendency to clog the paper?
     
  16. Sorry no buffing recommendations mine was custom mixed from someone's personnel stash of old lacquer.
     
  17. theHIGHLANDER
    Joined: Jun 3, 2005
    Posts: 10,230

    theHIGHLANDER
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    PG, yeah, I get it about 2021. All I can say is they know not what they're missing. DC 4000 can be cured in 40 min at 140 deg. Cool down, cut and buff (exponentially easier than 2021) and serve it to your client. No shrinkage, no die back. Air dry for a few days (all custom stuff is final surfaced anyway) and you get the same result. The gloss doesn't have that plastic toy look that many custom finishes exhibit these days. No matter how "clear" the images there's a certain something about it. Being in the biz I'm sure you know of what I'm talking about. 4000 is more "real" in final gloss, or more important to me, clarity of the reflections. The lacquer fenders didn't load up when we sanded and polished. We use a spritzer bottle with a few drops of dish soap and surface away. You almost always get some, but paying attention and keeping it wet, not enough to discuss. I guess brand loyalty is there. I've strayed on occasion only to go back, and frankly it's the company as much as the product. Add to that they're under 1 mile down the street, well that's fast service when you need something in a hurry. Hey, it happens. Not often, maybe twice a year if that, but nice to have em right there. I get deliveries in under 30 min just in normal purchases.

    So how about those lacquer fenders? It was both fronts, the old black on the rears were just polished (and quite old). 054.jpg I dunno, looks ok, huh?
     
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  18. I've never sprayed lacquer. But i did buff it last year, a guy wanted me to clean up a black 47 chrysler windsor before he sold it.
    I buffed it with farecla G3 and a foam pad at 2500 rpm. Then a quick G10. I used a hand glaze after that with microfiber towel.
    it took no time at all. And came out beatiful.
    If it was base clear that would be an all day job forsure.
    if
     
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  19. ago
    Joined: Oct 12, 2005
    Posts: 2,199

    ago
    Member
    from pgh. pa.

    I bought a brand new 70 1/2 Camaro. It had lacquer paint. 6 years old and the paint cracked or crazed all over except the hood and front fenders. Probably was bad prep at the factory.
     
  20. nh-lead-man
    Joined: Jul 24, 2006
    Posts: 181

    nh-lead-man
    Member

    Lacquer was good in the days multiple layers would crack not good over lead joints. imron, let cure a couple days and took a week to block sand rock hard finish HIGH DOLLAR.Acrylic enamel w/without hardener. With hardener straight colors could be sanded and buffed durable on fiberglass cars{ vetts} Base coat clear. still a lot of work to prepare and color sand. Base must be laid down perfectly.I liked acrylic enamel w/hardener Quick and dirty not that great health wise. Imron was brutal. Even if lacquer was available I wouldnt make it my first choice. Dupont. No longer just kept
    changing products one after another and that was a problem especially after a car or truck previously had paint work. Look at the high price of materials out of control. Baron Von Vasnic
     
  21. when i started doing body work lacquer was on it's way out but the shop i worked for kept using it so i have some experience with it. we would prime stuff and let it sit for a month before sanding it, then prime again if need be, and wait again. the primer gun hung from the paint bench and always had primer in it so if you needed to hit something you could. i remember having "lifting" problems when doing a repair but the paint blended well. i stopped using it in the early 90's.
    recently i have had to touch up a couple "survivors" and did it in lacquer with great results. you couldn't tell the old from the new. i did use an old wool buff [i bought a case in 1989] some old 3m compound [i had to soften with water] and the last bit of a bottle of ebony polish i had.[r.i.p., old friend]
    i think the modern primers will and do make the use of lacquer paint better now than before. thoughts?
     
  22. theHIGHLANDER
    Joined: Jun 3, 2005
    Posts: 10,230

    theHIGHLANDER
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I agree with this. As I see how well those fenders came out in the time spent, or lack of really, the primer we used was fully cured in less than 1/2 the time the old lacquer based primer liked. We also got less solvent penetration overall and zero swelling of anything below. That's a good thing with solvent rich material. We used (go figure) PPG 202 Shop Line 2K type primer.
     
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  23. Jimmy2car
    Joined: Nov 26, 2003
    Posts: 1,707

    Jimmy2car
    Member
    from No. Cal

    I've painted 3 cars using Dupont acrylic lacquer. All three came out great. All painted in my garage. No clear on any of the three. I just sold my 39 Ford coupe after 26 years. Paint was 25 yrs old, and still looked good. Real good.
    Compound? Just light polishing compound using an old Black & Decker polisher with a wool bonnet.
    Looking at the paint under flourescent lights tells you when it's done.
    Mine never cracked or hazed at all. AND, no where near as hazardous as all this new stuff.
    I love lacquer.
     
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  24. nwbhotrod
    Joined: Oct 13, 2009
    Posts: 1,243

    nwbhotrod
    Member
    from wash state

    That's what I want to hear I am building a 57 chevy sedan delivery we want to build to look like 1962 all old school right down to the paint
     
  25. falcongeorge
    Joined: Aug 26, 2010
    Posts: 18,341

    falcongeorge
    Member
    from BC

    In my very limited experience, lacquer is the ONLY paint for a guy who shoots a car every five years at home, and that pretty much describes me. fact is, the modern paints are just flat-out unsafe to spray at home.
    I'm not gonna say much here, I am really out of my depth here (the last time I sprayed a car was more than ten years ago, and yes, it was in lacquer) and The Highlander knows WAAAAY more than I EVER will, but I am watching this thread with a GREAT deal of interest. Maybe Richard Wright will chime in as well?
    I don't think "slick looking" is the best way to describe the difference in the look of a good lacquer paint job, and keep in mind, we are trying to describe something somewhat subjective in words, but the best way I can describe it is the desired characteristic that rubbed out lacquer has is it looks less "plastic", if that makes sense.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2016
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  26. G. Anderson
    Joined: Oct 7, 2010
    Posts: 41

    G. Anderson
    Member
    from MN.usa

    I am a retired professional painter.
    Worked over 40 years painting everything from VERY high end Classic cars to working for a friend for a month in a Maaco shop.
    When I started painting all there was was Acrylic, Nitrocellulose Lacquer and Alkyd Enamel.
    The paints and reducers are 1,000 times BETTER than any of that old crap, by FAR!!!

    You can use a single stage paint today that dries as fast or faster than the old lacquer and sprays out like GLASS, MUCH better than ANY old enamel.
    If you want DEEP shine and Reflection Of Image, the modern paints are the way to go.

    The old type paints are NOT as durable, don't shine as well, and the newer paints are available in thousands of colors the old crap could NOT DREAM OF!!!

    Using old type Acrylic Lacquer is just plain stupid!

    Beside being ILLEGAL in a VERY large number of states and cities....
    EVEN FOR THE BACK YARD GUY!!!

    PLEASE drag your lazy CHEAP ass into the 21st century when it come s to paint and bodywork!!!

    I could paint a car and you could NOT tell WHAT I painted it with...
    So the "It's NOT like the 40's, 50's or 60's material" DOES
    NOT STAND UP!

    Your Pal, Gary
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2016
  27. henryj1951
    Joined: Sep 23, 2012
    Posts: 2,306

    henryj1951
    Member
    from USA

    we even mixed %'s of clear for effect... back in the day... :cool:
     
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  28. F-head
    Joined: Oct 20, 2007
    Posts: 1,168

    F-head
    Member

    you lacquer assholes are making gary very unhappy
     
  29. jcmarz
    Joined: Jan 10, 2010
    Posts: 4,631

    jcmarz
    Member
    from Chino, Ca

    Is it that time of the month for you?? Don't have a cow, it's just paint.
     
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  30. falcongeorge
    Joined: Aug 26, 2010
    Posts: 18,341

    falcongeorge
    Member
    from BC

    from his profile page...

    Occupation:
    Fabricator, welder, auto custom painter

    Its ALWAYS the guys that make their living painting cars that post this crap, ya think maybe it has anything to do with the fact that they DONT WANT guys painting their own cars because it cuts into their piece of the action??
     
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