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Technical Keeping wire wheels on A??

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by 0ldhippie, Sep 19, 2015.

  1. 0ldhippie
    Joined: Aug 16, 2015
    Posts: 53

    0ldhippie
    Member

    I'm all new to this but need to upgrade the stock brakes on my '28 A. REALLY want to keep the stock wire wheels. I'm really confused on how the wire wheels seat against the drum/hub. I get they need to be supported in the center but do they also need to be supported on the outside lip?
    I have seen that 39-48 brakes seem to be the normal swap but I don't like the non-energizing design and they need a center adapter, $20, for the wire wheels http://www.speedwaymotors.com/1928-1935-Early-Ford-Wire-Wheel-Support,5846.html (not sure what drums actually work, 1 1/2" dish or 1 3/8" dish, with the adapters and wires?).
    Also saw the repo Lincoln Bendix type setups but they are really pricey and also need the same adapters. http://www.mtcarproducts.com/MODEL-A-KIT.html
    Also saw some Alum adapters that say they mount wires to modern brakes but they are $80 each and move the wheels out 1.3". http://www.rallyamerica.com/Adapters.html
    F1/F100 brakes are cheap with the right bolt patterns, but I don't know what it takes to mount the wires to them?
    I'm thinking if I was going to the $80 1.3" spacers I'd just go to disc on the front. But also think they will push the wheels out enough to look wonky with fenders, at least on the front?
    Seems being able to use the cheaper thinner spacers or at least thinner spacers with f100 drums would be my best solution. Is it possible??
    Question really is ; what would be needed to get self energizing hyd brakes with stock wire wheels on my A without breaking the bank or completely reinventing the wheel? Thanks!!
    It really is less about not having the cash but about spending it wisely and I may end up with f100s on the rear with the thick adapters and repro Lincoln Bendix on the front but really exploring options. Thanks
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2015
  2. LOU WELLS likes this.
  3. Genes12320
    Joined: Dec 1, 2007
    Posts: 69

    Genes12320
    Member

    I just did my Model A with 51 F1 brakes on the front and a Bronco rear with the stock Bronco brakes in the rear. I used a set of 5 on 51/2 by 1.25 inch spacers that I bought off of ebay for about $80 and I used the wire wheel support rings from speedway. By using the hardware and self adjuster kits that are listed for a 66 f100 with the same shoes. I did need to cut another adjustment slot in the left backing plate.
     
  4. Martin Harris
    Joined: Aug 3, 2014
    Posts: 318

    Martin Harris

    I'm no expert on this matter, but my memory banks recall an article in Street Rodder some years ago that backs up what these guys are saying, which is that you need to use adapters with support rings as the wheel seats on two levels and needs to be correctly supported.
     
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  5. 0ldhippie
    Joined: Aug 16, 2015
    Posts: 53

    0ldhippie
    Member

    Thanks! Yeah I saw your link thread. I understand the need for an inside spacer with wires but am unsure about the outside? It doesn't look like the $80 adapters have a large enough diameter to support the outside edge if the wheel?? But I have not seen one or any measurements other than thickness. Don't see why ya couldn't make a thinner spacer plate of 1/4" or so for the f100 drums?? But I haven't played with this stuff... Guess I'm asking what are the two levels wire wheels mount to??
     
  6. 0ldhippie
    Joined: Aug 16, 2015
    Posts: 53

    0ldhippie
    Member

    Kool! Why did ya need spacers 1.25 thick??
     
  7. Genes12320
    Joined: Dec 1, 2007
    Posts: 69

    Genes12320
    Member

    my 35 wires recess in the center. I will try to get a picture
     
  8. Genes12320
    Joined: Dec 1, 2007
    Posts: 69

    Genes12320
    Member

  9. GordonC
    Joined: Mar 6, 2006
    Posts: 1,761

    GordonC
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Sorry to hi jack the thread.

    GENES12320 what brake set up are you running? I am going through this right at the moment. It was suggested to me to not use the 47 Ford brakes because they have a 1/4" line into the wheel cylinder and are not self energizing, while the bronco rear end has a 3/16" line. It was suggested to use 53 to 56 F100 brakes but that left me with the same problem, how to mount my 35 Ford wire wheels. So what are your rings and adapters as far as sizes go?
     
  10. Genes12320
    Joined: Dec 1, 2007
    Posts: 69

    Genes12320
    Member

    These are 48-52 F1 brakes on the front. The 53-56 are close to the same. My rear is a 70 Bronco rear and I am using the brakes that came on it.
     
  11. 0ldhippie
    Joined: Aug 16, 2015
    Posts: 53

    0ldhippie
    Member


    That is awesome!!!! Thanks so much for posting the photos! Now I get it I think. The two points are the inner flange and lug mounting. The outer does not need to supported. It is the lug mounting being recessed that is the real problem needing the wide spacer. The drum setback on the stock, 40 type and Lincoln drums allows the wheel to clear the drum without spacers. Will save a little on adapters anyway!!!
    So I just need to find some 8" X 4" brakes that will fit inside the wheels... OK maybe not...
     
    Genes12320 likes this.
  12. Genes12320
    Joined: Dec 1, 2007
    Posts: 69

    Genes12320
    Member

    Yes The outer flange ends up close to the drum and hides everything. I used the lugs with the bigger seat to add some support.
     
  13. PhredH
    Joined: Feb 28, 2015
    Posts: 64

    PhredH

    Don't know your reason for "upgrading". My '28 stock steel drums accept both the 21" original wheels and the 1935 wire wheels without any adapters. My mechanical brakes will lock up the tires. Both the 600-16 tires and the 21" tire have a tiny tread contact patch, so the mechanicals can give you all the braking you can use. With my original steel drums, I'm good for 2 or 3 hard (near emergency) stops before brake fade becomes noticeable. New cast iron drums are available and they can give better heat dissipation.

    just my $.02, might save a lot of work.
     
    barrnone50 and Hybridpain like this.
  14. Reisinger Custom
    Joined: Feb 29, 2012
    Posts: 2

    Reisinger Custom
    Member

    Agree with PhredH, the mechanicals stop fine, they just don't stop fine repeatedly. You have to use an adapter with any flat drum on 28-35 wires. I use Rally America's. I love the Wilson Welding set up and like that you can use their backing plate that bolts to 9" Ford 4 bolt flange.
     
  15. hubcap
    Joined: Feb 24, 2007
    Posts: 198

    hubcap
    Member
    from phx

    All I can add is I have 40 Ford brakes on the front of my Model A fenderless coupe/ 50 F1 rear with a 283/powerglide and it stops fine. even with repeated stops. These cars aren't that heavy and I haven't felt the need for self energizing brakes. You can't beat Henry's design for simplicity and all the parts are available. JS
     
  16. Mr48chev
    Joined: Dec 28, 2007
    Posts: 26,210

    Mr48chev
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Personally I never cared much for the look of the 35 wires sitting clear to hell and gone outside the drums on the later drums.
     
    Barrelnose pickup likes this.
  17. Andy
    Joined: Nov 17, 2002
    Posts: 4,512

    Andy
    Member

    I worked on a friends car with Buick drums and 35 wires. It looked stupid as hell with the drums sitting outside of the wheels. I put some 40-48 drums on it and it looked fine. I would only use the wires with the early drums. I did find that they will fit over Maverick rear drums if a 1" wheel adapter is used. They still need the support rings. (I sell the rings @4/$40)
     
  18. 0ldhippie
    Joined: Aug 16, 2015
    Posts: 53

    0ldhippie
    Member

    Kool! I maybe getting a set of your rings!!

    If you guys are happy with mechanical and/or v8 hyd, good for you. I have driven both and they not up to my idea of modern highway driving. Brakes on 50 Merc (yeah I know heaver car but the same thing nearly happened to my '56 f100 coming out of Sequoia) faded going down Tioga Pass and had to run her into the inside of the cliff til they cooled (Yes, I'm a terrible driver but I did drive gas tankers for standard oil). Your opinion may be different and that is fine. Lincoln/Bendix fi-f100 (or any drum) brakes are marginal imho but I'm willing to give up some performance for a semi-stock look.
    My understanding is, Lincoln repro brakes can run v8 drums so the look is the same. fi-f100 drums are basically the same size so there is little difference in their look except the backing plate isn't recessed and wheel is spaced out off the hub. With either the wire wheel is close to the drum, just like stock. Correct me if I'm wrong??? Of course I don't have the critical eye a lot of you much more knowledgeable guys do. Thanks!
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2015
    Genes12320 likes this.
  19. dtracy
    Joined: May 8, 2012
    Posts: 223

    dtracy
    Member

    You might want to consider making friends with a guy that has a lathe. :)

    Dave.
     
  20. 0ldhippie
    Joined: Aug 16, 2015
    Posts: 53

    0ldhippie
    Member

    Ok, I got another question. I stupidly got some Bendix F1 front & rear brakes. The fronts don't bolt to the front spindles but do seem to bolt to the rear and work. But they have no parking brake cable holes. The rears don't bolt to either (Dana 41??). Is there an easy way to put park cables on the front plates? I thought I saw some backing plates with a bolt-on parking brake cable set-up?? What Bendix backing plates do you guys use on the rear?? Where can I get them??? Thanks!!!
     
    barrnone50 likes this.
  21. 0ldhippie
    Joined: Aug 16, 2015
    Posts: 53

    0ldhippie
    Member

    I am all new to this stuff and may be an idiot but l thought there are a couple of folks above that have f1 brakes?? But maybe not on A axles??
     
  22. GordonC
    Joined: Mar 6, 2006
    Posts: 1,761

    GordonC
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Probably on the later axles like 46 / 47. I have 46 spindles on my dropped A axle with, whichever I choose to use, 47 backing plates and brakes, or the 53 / 56 f100 backing plates and brakes. Either should bolt right up to the later axle. Don't think they work on an A axle without some effort. F1 should also bolt up to the later axle.
     
  23. GordonC
    Joined: Mar 6, 2006
    Posts: 1,761

    GordonC
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I should add, that I don't know of folks using F1 front brake backing pates on the rear end? Most folks that I have seen use whatever backing plates that came with the rear end so they can use the original backing plates and brake/emergency brake hardware. F1 / F100 on the front and whatever the rear end came with on the rear.
     
  24. All I can add is having played around with a few different early ford brakes is 48 to 66 F1/F100 rear backing plates are identical.
    I have put Dana 41/44 backing plates against a 63 F100 9" diff backing plates and other than having a big nut at the top for holding on the brake pivot they are identical. Same big bearing end bolt pattern, same offset and same brake pads
     
  25. ROBERT JAM
    Joined: Nov 13, 2002
    Posts: 1,173

    ROBERT JAM
    Member

    Using a Speedway adaptor( Wheel support) to put 1935 wires on early ford brakes (1940-1946) . Does the flange on the adaptor go to the outside or inside ?
     
  26. Andy
    Joined: Nov 17, 2002
    Posts: 4,512

    Andy
    Member

    The raised ring goes outside so it can fit in the recessed part of the wheel.
     
  27. ROBERT JAM
    Joined: Nov 13, 2002
    Posts: 1,173

    ROBERT JAM
    Member

  28. weemark
    Joined: Sep 1, 2002
    Posts: 803

    weemark
    Member
    from scotland

    To put the F100 brakes on the front you need to use the F100 hub as well. once you have the hub you need to use the correct bearings? Speedway sell a kit which allows F100 brakes to mount to 37-48 spindles https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Ford-F-100-Brake-to-1937-48-Spindle-Bearing-Conversion-Kit,5387.html

    this is a good thread on F100 brakes https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/f100-brakes.226861/

    Personally I don't like wires on F100 brakes - I don't think the spacers solve the problem really - they widen the track too much and could give you steering/braking issues because your scrub radius is way off.
     

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