Keep the Stock Drums? or add disk with headaches?

Alright,
I am getting cold feet. Background-I picked up the scarebird caliper carriers for my 56 buick and all the recommended parts....last fall. I have written before about the master cylinder issues, etc. Basically, it is trial and error and there is no easy way to pick up the phone and order a kit that is a simple bolt on answer.

I want to drive my car this summer and not toss cash and time to the wind. So.......should I just rebuild the stock drums and have mediocre performance but no issues or nut up and go with the discs?

I bring this up because I was talking with a local KC guy who just replaced the wheel cylinders on a 52 ford and said that they work just fine for daily driver and why I wanted F-with the discs.

The pleasure the pain......send advice!

Thanks folks

 

I prefer discs myself even though my 2 rods have drums. Better feel, better stopping distance, especially in SoCal.

 

Disks have 2 main advantages. 1 They are pretty fade proof, 2 They recover well if they get wet,no draging the brakes to dry them or pulling. That said I like my drum brakes on open wheel cars. Drum brakes with GOOD lining will work just fine ,just don't expect them to make 2 or 3 high speed panic stops in a row without cooling time. Question? How often you make multipull panic stops? Buy good quality .preferably rivited , lining and have arced to fit the drums = good stopping right away. Needless to say all cylinders etc need to be in perfect shape, and bleed enough to flush the system.

 

I pretty much agree with what was said. Of course discs are better. Drums work perfectly well for daily driver as long as they are set up properly and you are not in the habit of being a tailgater.

 

A friend of mine has a shop where a customer wanted to add disc brakes to his 56' Cadi. There isn't a kit so he send the spindles to Master Power Brakes. What he got back were spindles with the rotors and calipers mounted and a matching master cylinder. My buddy then added a Hydro Boost. Pricey, but it worked great.

 

When some POS in a honda civic slams on his breaks in front of you, you will have a fairly big headache.

 

If you have $$$ you can just drop it off at MP brakes or something...but yeah I bet them or ECI or one of those places will modify your spindles

I drove my 51 Ford with stock drums, all new, for 6 months or more in Los Angeles traffic. It was not fun. As said above, they stop fine the first time. After that good luck. When I replaced the pedal assembly with a PB pedal, I found the brake pedal arm was cracked and bending. It takes a LOT of standing on that pedal to do that!

I could lock up the fronts if they were pretty cool, but just a little heat in them made them fairly terrifying LOL

The new PDB I put in make the car drive like a new car, no brake fade, I can even stop for yellow lights that I otherwise normally would have had to run!

If you can take it *real* easy on them they're fine, they WILL lock up the fronts, but like I said the brake fade is s c a r y. I've driven/owned 4 cars with all drum brakes, even power, and not a one of them stopped worth a damn after a little bit of driving.

Yeah you'll pay throught the nose at MP brakes, but people sure seem to like them.

 

Are those the 45 fin drums? They look great on a fenderless hot rod, and stop just fine. You can get a few bucks for them to go towards the discs.

 

After this happened to a mate and he destroyed his 68 RT Charger I will always favour discs. He was driving along minding his business when a dick in a ricer hit the brakes cause he'd missed a turn, Mate was trying to stop and realised it wasnt going to happen so he steered the thing over the medium to avoid the other cars. hit a tree just behind the door and distorted the whole roof. Three people have now given up trying to fix it.

Do the swap, Im sure someone has done it before and can help you out.

 

Kraz-

sounds like you wanted discs, that's why you got the kit.

if you're a bit frustrated... you'll get it done, keep asking questions here. someone here knows how to get you through the project.

i have done the Scarebird brakes before, and it does require some effort to get the combo right, and dialed. i'm currently working on my second application of them that will include front & back discs. i'll take a look for your MC question/problem and see if i can help.

good luck, you'll love it when you're done. it does make a nice difference.

 

Kraz-

just found your MC thread. it's over a year old. sounds like you just need to know which MC to put on. email Mark at Scarebird. you're only a couple hours of work away.

if you run into a new problem, check back.

BTW... someone on that thread said proportioning valve is not necessary. my opinion is that is wrong. it may drive fine without one around town, but too much juice to the back end in a panic stop will turn your car around in a hurry. put a valve in and do some safe hard stop testing to see how much juice you can put to rear without locking them up.

 

What are the MC issues? There is so much information available to set up your own brake system it shouldnt be that big a deal. As long as you have the spindle/caliper/rotor situation beat everything else is generic parts.

 

Kraz, I did a search for your MC problems and I see it was about 15 monthes ago that you posed your questions. If you are going to work on your own car and achieve success you need to study. The answer to every possible question you might have is available on the internet. Its not fair to come on here and ask questions like "what should I do with my single MC?" It shows that you have done absolutely no research of your own. Anybody that would even suggest you could use the single MC with your new disc brakes is a moron and that person would never touch my car nor would I have even 1 oz of confidence in their advice. These brake systems are EASY, IF you take the time to study what a good brake system consists of. It's not black art, it's science and all the knowledge and every part you need is available. That doesnt mean you shouldnt ask a question on the HAMB, but the answers to the questions you pose cannot be answered in a quick sentence or paragraph. Search the internet and read.

 

I had this happen about a week before I switched to discs. Ricer cut me off to get to a left turn lane, where he stopped iwth his ass partially blocking my lane! No way I could stop, so I steered around him and hoped for the best, thank god nobody was in the next lane.

Thanks for mentioning the prop valve. I've got one, but I've never road tested it to see if it was effective or not. I need to find a place I can do that. Hmmm.

 

Thanks for the advice folks...I had the car out this weekend and for some reason people love to ride your ass and cut you off ...because I am concious of the stopping distance I need! Is this Karma?

I see being cut off as the main reason to change out the brakes as I do not want to find a front end for the buick any time soon.

"The Monkey"-Thanks for the advice...the MC is what I am searching for keep me posted.

"Shakey Jakey"-I heard ya, but you are part of my research/"science project". Why I post the vague and almost same questions are because of what I have found on the net and catalogs. The man at Scarebird (sorry forgot your name jsut now, but you were very helpful) said I "should" be fine with the stock single master (all cautions noted about potential hazzards). But that contradicts some of the info I have found. The residual valve to the rear is just another one.

My hope was to find someone who has run into the same/similar issue with the answer for my specific application (56 buick-one year only with that brake set up). I figure the HAMB was the only place I could have a chance at finding the answer...like a one stop shop or maybe now a needle in a haystack!

The calipers, spindle, rotor issues are solved already and the parts are in the garage...I have it all. I doubt my MC.

Going forward...I will make the swap as detailed by Scarebird. Risidual valve will be tested after the system goes on. MC, to be continued as I will just have to test this baby out!

Just trying to have some fun hear folks...do not get too crazy on me now.

 

Let me know if you want to get rid of the old drums.

 

I ran stock drums on my '54 Olds daily driver here in Miami until I sold it a few years ago. I never had any issues.

 

I was at the same crossroads just earlier this year with my 55 Special. I looked into the "kits" to do calipers & rotors in the front and all the costs and parts guessing that went along with it.

I found it extremely odd that the companies offering the disc conversion "kits" had no idea what master cylinder would work. That basically told me they had not tested their "kit" on the car they were selling it for. Making caliper relocation brakets and checkin for rotor clearance is one thing... making sure the whole conversion works in unison with the master cylinder and rear brakes is something completely different! I was not about be someones test mule.

So I started thinking... Lets say the only thing you change is front brakes... not tires and not rear brakes. With the brakes adjusted correctly and the stock master cylinder, I could stand on the pedal and lock em up the bias ply L78's pretty much immediately. When I say "pretty much", I mean that I cannot count the fraction of a second before I heard that telltale bias ply squeal.

So how much quicker would a rotor conversion lock em up versus drums lockin em up? Either way, if you are in a panic stopping situation you will have to know how to pump your brakes without lockin up the tires or you'll just end up skidding along.

I ended up going with a 1968 Olds master cylinder for a drum/drum brake system. It has a 1" bore to match the wheel cylinders 1" bore and mounted up fairly easily. I had to drill 2 new holes to mount the master and I had to clearance the mounting bracket slightly. Other than that it was a piece of cake (except for that fact that the first master I got was bad...). I used the factory pushrod and clevis too.

Now she stops great, has a dual res and great feel on the pedal. Total outlay for the brake lines, master cylinder, fluid & brakelight switch came to just under $200. That's a far cry from the $1000 worth of parts that was needed for the disc conversion.

About the "ricers" pulling out or turning... You are driving an old car!!!! Leave more space between you and other cars!!!! Anticipate other drivers around you!!!! Pay attention!!! I know not all accidents can be avoided, but you have to know the limits of the car you are driving if you are going to avoid the majority of them. My 2 cents.

 

Glad to hear another proponent for drums, but is "locking up" the brakes really what you are looking for? Or is controlled brake modulation(correct terminology?) the desired result?

 

The desired result is to always stop. LOL

I was only trying to make a point as people were discussing emergency stopping (i.e. ricer stories). Basically I'm just saying if there is an emergency and you have to do your best to stop as quickly as possible, I don't think there would be much difference between a 55 Buick with bias plys set up correctly with drum brakes and one set up with discs on the front. Either way, you pump em or yer gonna be skidding. That's why I added that extra following distance and being aware of your surroundings was so important.

 

You are 1000% right. I think changing you driving habits is better in the long run than changing out your brake system. Any idea how long it takes to stop an 18 wheeler? And they log MILLIONS of miles on them.

 

After a little city driving and those front drums get some heat in them, your stopping distance goes way up. No fun.

 

i think the point Kraz makes about getting cut-off, is that when he does leave the extra room, morons always take that gap back by pulling into his sandbagged gap. have to leave more room again, in comes another car. it's like tourette syndrome. i don't think they can help it.

guy at Scarebird is named 'Mark'. he may not be able to test EVERY combo, but i appreciate what he's doing for the hobby. his brackets are quality made, inexpensive, and accept ordinary brake parts from ordinary auto parts stores.

Kraz- if you find an MC that was originally spec'd for disc/drum, it likely will have an integral residual valve for the rear drums, you can see it in the port. if you use an MC from a disc/disc application, inserting a residual valve in-line is pretty easy.

another guy you might want to contact about MC information is Dean at www.hotrodheaven.com

 

Exactly.

 

You've already got the brackets, go with discs. IMO, a dual m/c is as important as discs, if not moreso. Get the caliper and wheel cylinder bore specs and find a m/c that's close. Pretty easy stuff and worth every bit of effort and money. The only reason I don't drive my old Dodge as much as I should is because of the damn brakes.

 

It would seem to me that the rotors and calipers you bought probably have a 99% chance that they originated on a production car. Find out what car they came from (or what car's original design), and use that master cylinder.

 

Kraz, In order to "properly" convert you will need, proportioning valve, metering valve, possibly a residual valve. You will need to know the piston diameter of your calipers, and the pedal ratio of your factory pedal. Armed with these parts and this knowledge you can have awesome brakes. If you dont have enough pedal ratio you must use a booster, not a bad thing, but you need to know before you chose your MC. Do some research, fill in some of the blanks, and you will have re-engineered your brake system without 300 "HELPS" between now and then. And you will have used your brain, used the internet, and solved a problem. Cool.

 

It's a slightly controversial subject and lots of people have strong opinions one way or the other.

FWIW there's tons of info on the internet, luckily. I read a bunch before was comfortable trying it.

 

Thats exactly how I crashed my 4 wheel drum 69 camaro. 2 cars pulled into my gap at the same time and slammed on there brakes. The cars in the other lane zoomed up boxing me in. crashed into the rear of one car and the median. Guess who's fault the accident was? Mine for driving a pos old car.

 

Opinions are like assholes...everybody has one and they all stink. Hotrodders have always used the best available, why would anybody use stone age shit in an attempt to be cool? I can see a set of big drums on an open wheel car but why use antiquated shit on a 56 Buick? Do it right or buy a trailer.