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Technical Just how long will I have to use the high zinc oil

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by junkyardjeff, Jan 14, 2016.

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  1. Well, at some point you HAVE to buy oil for a HP engine, why not get what you need? The price is about the same unless you're a real cheap bastard. I was told to go with Valvoline VR1 10W30 for my new build. Local speed shop has it for under $7 a quart. Amazon ships 6-packs for less than that.

    Talking with a respected engine builder last month when my engine was in the shop. He was talking about someone losing an engine after changing the oil with Royal Purple. This was a broken-in engine with some runs on it. Changes the oil, makes a pass and loses the engine (not sure what went wrong with it).

    He calls Royal Purple and tells them what happened. Royal Purple asks, did you shake the oil up before you poured it in? He goes back and looks at the containers... they had something in the bottom, probably all of his ZDDP.

    Anyway, I've never read the fine print on a bottle of RP or even bought one. But I will be shaking up any container of oil that has ZDDP in it.
     
    Atwater Mike likes this.
  2. I run 20/50 Valvoline racing oil. 50 bucks a year for oil is a hell of a lot cheaper than 4K for a new motor.
     
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  3. lucas doolin
    Joined: Feb 7, 2013
    Posts: 373

    lucas doolin
    Member

    At our shop we have seen Ford Tauri reach 300,000 with no special care other than periodic oil changes. We have also seen irregularly scheduled or prolonged oil changes trash engines with well under 100K, particularly in the case of later models with variable cam timing. Regular oil changes using the appropriate oil for the application are the best insurance for your engine and your wallet. But of course you already knew that.
     
    hipster likes this.
  4. I used that oil for years. For my stock cars I ran straight Kendall 50 weight. Of course this was prior to them fucking around with OUR oil...
     
  5. falcongeorge
    Joined: Aug 26, 2010
    Posts: 18,341

    falcongeorge
    Member
    from BC

    I've been running Gibbs XP-4 in my daily, pretty aggressive flat tappet with big springs. No abnormal cam wear issues so far. Its a bitch, most companies keep messing with their formulations so if you want to run something other than Penn, Gibbs or Amzoil, its like you have to constantly keep up on what the latest formulation is. I have heard that Valvoline took a lot of the zinc out of VR-1 a couple years ago. It still seems to work ok with flat-tappet cams, but I have no interest in being the guinea pig for these ongoing additive package changes, so I stick with Gibbs, it works, and they aren't constantly tweaking the formulation. There are endless arguments about whether there are other additive packages that will do what the high zinc content does, and I am not an oil engineer, so both sides of those arguments are probably valid, I just don't feel like being the one they experiment on. I am running 340 over the nose, I am on the threshold even with old school oils, I just aint gonna mess around looking for something cheaper, its not worth the risk for me.
    In the past, I have also wiped out roller lifters in street driven motors...
     
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  6. Bent Wrench
    Joined: Jun 18, 2009
    Posts: 19

    Bent Wrench
    Member

  7. falcongeorge
    Joined: Aug 26, 2010
    Posts: 18,341

    falcongeorge
    Member
    from BC

    I think the old Kendall is now Brad Penn, and the current stuff being marketed under the "Kendall" name is no relation to the old GT-1 we all knew and loved? I just heard that somewhere, don't know if its fact, so double check before you take it as gospel. I believe Penn actually still sells GT-1 mineral oil under a different designation?
     
  8. falcongeorge
    Joined: Aug 26, 2010
    Posts: 18,341

    falcongeorge
    Member
    from BC

    Yup.
    http://www.penngrade1.com/History.aspx
     
  9. 55chieftain
    Joined: May 29, 2007
    Posts: 2,180

    55chieftain
    Member

    No oil is really cheap anymore, how cheap is an engine repair? What's helps is getting lifters with the oil hole on the bottom. For a street engine vr1 10w30.
     
  10. Truck64
    Joined: Oct 18, 2015
    Posts: 3,880

    Truck64
    Member
    from Ioway

    I switched to Rotella 15w40 some time ago, figured that a Diesel rated oil would by definition be heavier-duty with EP additives regardless of zinc or phosphorous being removed. I dunno.
     
  11. Blue One
    Joined: Feb 6, 2010
    Posts: 10,150

    Blue One
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Alberta

    And, it's an even poorer mind that cannot understand that a word spelled wrongly or used incorrectly can have a totally different meaning than intended.
     
  12. thirtytwo
    Joined: Dec 19, 2003
    Posts: 2,605

    thirtytwo
    Member

    AND it's also a poor mind that can't seem to decipher what the intent of the person was , but somehow feels superior and point out other people's flaws.

    Some are better with numbers , some are better with words, I will take a numbers person any day ...
     
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  13. falcongeorge
    Joined: Aug 26, 2010
    Posts: 18,341

    falcongeorge
    Member
    from BC

    Yup, I am running edm lifters in mine. Stay FAR away from cheaper off-shore lifters nowadays, a 'soft" lifter will take out the cam pdq regardless of WHATS in the oil, and the quality control is just not what it used to be.
     
    hipster likes this.
  14. town sedan
    Joined: Aug 18, 2011
    Posts: 1,182

    town sedan
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    New diesels have converters in their exhaust systems and reduced zinc in their oil. Plus the extra detergent too. Maybe not the best plan anymore.
    -Dave
     
    Montana1 likes this.
  15. dirty old man
    Joined: Feb 2, 2008
    Posts: 8,400

    dirty old man
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    As Falcon George has said, I'm not an oil engineer either.
    But as an independent Amsoil dealer for a long time, I've spent a lot of time studying oils, both from info provided from Amsoil, but also other places, including "Bob is the oil guy".
    Every time one of these threads starts, without fail, somebody is going to advocate diesel oil, many times it's "Shell Rotella T". And there's a couple of problems with this.
    The first is that oils are compounded for their intended use by guys who ARE OIL ENGINEERS. No oil on the shelf is just oil, whether it is mineral or synthetic. There are all sorts of additives for all sorts of purposes.
    Among those additives is an anti foam agent, because all the moving parts within an engine are moving around and stirring up the oil as it flows from up in the engine back to the sump to be picked up by the oil pump and pumped back thru the system as long as the engine is running. This all combines to cause foam that must be suppressed and reduced as much as possible, because the foam is air in the oil, and air isn't a very good lubricant.
    Diesel engines seldom turn over about 3K rpm, and since they have other needs different than gas engines, such as soot in the oil, the anti foam agents are reduced from that of the oil for gas engines, which turn much higher rpms and need more anti foam properties, in order to allow room in that quart bottle for the additives needed for a diesel engine. So this means that using diesel oil in a high rpm gas engine risks foaming oil and reduced lubrication.
    The other problem is that in 2007 the diesels in new trucks added a "particulate filter" that is a type of catalytic converter to lower exhaust emissions. This change resulted in 2 changes in the requirements for fuel and oil in diesels built after 2006 to avoid fouling the exhaust system components. Very much like the changes to automotive pump gas which had to change to lead free and the Zinc had to be reduced in the motor oil with the advent of catalytic converters.
    First of these changes was an even further reduction in the sulfur in diesel fuel, from low sulfur to ultra low sufur , sorta like lead free gas. The other requirement is the same as that on modern gas automotive engines, A MAJOR REDUCTION IN ZINC.
    Most of the oil companies quietly reduced the zinc in their diesel oils and put that new oil out on the shelf where the oil that had high zinc was, with almost the same label, most with only a designation change in the API ratings.
    Amsoil, and maybe some of the others, I'm not sure on that, came out with a new oil for the new exhaust stuff and continues to market the old, original formula with notes that it is for 2006 and earlier trucks with the new setup.
    The old oil is designated CJ-4+ and CI-4, the new one is is simply CJ-4, no + and no CI-4.
    The old oil is also a bit more expensive as it has more additives such as the zinc.
    Sorry for the novel, but I know no other way to get the whole story out.
    I agree 100% with FG, buy an oil intended for the use it's getting. Amsoil sells 2 different formulations for hi po engines with flat tappets, and there's lots of others that do the same. Oil is no p[lace to try to outsmart the manufacturer. Nowadays what you did 10 years ago for oil don't get it done.
     
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  16. mikhett
    Joined: Jan 22, 2005
    Posts: 1,403

    mikhett
    Member
    from jackson nj

    I use Brad Penn plus a pint of zddp in my 390.
     
  17. Eats shoots and leaves.

    Eats, shoots and leaves.
     
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  18. thirtytwo
    Joined: Dec 19, 2003
    Posts: 2,605

    thirtytwo
    Member

    Cheap oil is about 2.50qt ... 5 qts @2.50=12.50+ bottle zinc@20.00=32.50

    VR -1@6.00qt=$30
    Penn@8.00qt=$40

    As you see ,the additive doesn't save much $$
    You do have to be diligent about researching brands and zinc and that does seem to change often.. What had zinc today.... Might not tomorrow

    BTW..... to the Punctuation and grammar nazis.....FUCK OFF!.... It's not that big of a deal

    A lot of people on here may have good info to post but are scared of being flamed by all you dickheads that got an A+ in English class..... Get over yourselves, I know a few great mechanics that are illiterate , but are a absolute wealth of knowledge ...
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2016
  19. Truck64
    Joined: Oct 18, 2015
    Posts: 3,880

    Truck64
    Member
    from Ioway

    Maybe, but they are fucking illiterate, remember?

    So as far as the internet is concerned they don't exist.

    We were just havin' fun, take a break. We all hate English majors as much as the next guy. ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1452889581.940541.jpg
     
  20. Blue One
    Joined: Feb 6, 2010
    Posts: 10,150

    Blue One
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Alberta

    It has nothing to do with superiority.
    It does have to do with making yourself understood and not looking like an idiot.
    Contrary to what you think it can be a big deal and you have just shown your lack of class by resorting to what you likely know best, profanity. :p :D:D:D
     
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  21. Gman0046
    Joined: Jul 24, 2005
    Posts: 5,842

    Gman0046
    Member

    Sorry, "back yard" chemists who add their own zinc to non zinc oil. How on earth do you determine you have the correct ratio of zinc to the none zinc oil in your crankcase? Remember this, too much zinc is as detrimental as not enough.

    I'll take my chances with a company like Valvoline who has a staff of engineers and chemists to determine the required amount of zinc and additives that goes into a quart of their oil. A quart of VR-1 contains 1400 ppm of zinc and 1300 ppm of phosphorous. Exactly what you need to prevent excessive wear on flat tappet cams.

    Adding your own zinc is a crap shoot I'm not willing to take. Can't imagine the zinc level in the engine of the guy from NJ who uses Brad Penn oil which already has a high level of zinc and then adds a pint of ZDDP additive. Too much zinc is extremely corrosive. More is not always better especially when it comes to zinc in motor oil..

    Every so often Auto Zone sells VR-1 conventional oil for $3.99/quart. Why use anything else?
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2016
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  22. Mike51Merc
    Joined: Dec 5, 2008
    Posts: 3,814

    Mike51Merc
    Member

    [QUOTE BTW..... to the Punctuation and grammar nazis.....FUCK OFF!.... It's not that big of a deal
    A lot of people on here may have good info to post but are scared of being flamed by all you dickheads that got an A+ in English class..... Get over yourselves, I know a few great mechanics that are illiterate , but are a absolute wealth of knowledge ...[/QUOTE]

    Whoa, easy there cowboy. We're all friends here. Maybe I started it, but I was honestly trying to be helpful.
     
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  23. thirtytwo
    Joined: Dec 19, 2003
    Posts: 2,605

    thirtytwo
    Member

    I've never been accused of being classy, I have been called honest, and achieved a D- in english class one semester, I'm only proud of one of those things...

    If you can't figure out what somebody wrote for lack of punctuation and a couple of spelling errors , the author may not be the idiot..... I look at content not fluff

    I know a couple mechanical engineers with much less writing/spelling skills than I have...It certainly does not make them idiots
     
  24. Blue One
    Joined: Feb 6, 2010
    Posts: 10,150

    Blue One
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Alberta

    Whoa, easy there cowboy. We're all friends here. Maybe I started it, but I was honestly trying to be helpful.[/QUOTE]


    Yes, we are all friends here, so lets relax and talk about hot rods and oil and all that. :)
     
  25. thirtytwo
    Joined: Dec 19, 2003
    Posts: 2,605

    thirtytwo
    Member

    Whoa, easy there cowboy. We're all friends here. Maybe I started it, but I was honestly trying to be helpful.[/QUOTE]

    It's not intended to anyone in particular, this grammar flaming has went on pretty much since the hamb started ... I struggle with spelling and punctuation , as do a lot of people I know and respect , I'm a machinist and mechanic/ fabricator .... Writing is not my skill ...

    Do we make fun of a writer because he can't weld like a seasoned fabricator... Why make fun of a fabricator for grammar mistakes. ?

    I can get information past a couple mis-spelled words and missing comma...

    But I will think twice about climbing in a racecar that a english professor built
     
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  26. Dangerous Dan
    Joined: Jul 10, 2011
    Posts: 342

    Dangerous Dan
    Member
    from Graham Wa.

    Boy, did this thread take a schitt or what?
     
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  27. falcongeorge
    Joined: Aug 26, 2010
    Posts: 18,341

    falcongeorge
    Member
    from BC

    Near as I have been able to establish, Valvoline has tweaked the zinc level in VR-1 at least 3 times in the last 5 years, from 1200 ppm, a low of 900 ppm a couple years back to the current 1400 ppm on the 2015 spec sheet.
    http://content.valvoline.com/pdf/vr1_racing.pdf
    As I said earlier, I haven't heard anyone wiping a cam and it being attributed directly to VR-1, and it seems to have a good reputation with guys that use it, but I like consistency. I just don't want to have to go on the internet and search up the latest PI sheet every time I do an oil change. I wouldn't tell anyone not to use it, but I'll spend the extra buck or two a quart for the Gibbs.
     
  28. thirtytwo
    Joined: Dec 19, 2003
    Posts: 2,605

    thirtytwo
    Member

    The nice thing about the vavoline , is its available easily and does go on sale at the parts stores

    Luckily I only have one motor I really care about , so I bought a case of brad penn off of amazon to put on the shelf , the closest vendor is 40 miles away..

    I was using cheap oil on the daily with zinc ,but when price on zinc went up and the oil doubled .. Just didn't make sense anymore , I didnt really trust the bottle method either
     
  29. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 16,581

    gimpyshotrods
    Member

    How long you plannin' on livin'?
     
  30. falcongeorge
    Joined: Aug 26, 2010
    Posts: 18,341

    falcongeorge
    Member
    from BC

    That's true, you can get the Valvoline anywhere. I wound up using the Gibbs over the Brad Penn because I could get it close by, this thread got me checking the various websites again, I use straight 30w in my rump rump cars, and I noticed its no longer on the Gibbs website. I'll call the place I've been buying the Gibbs at and double check, if they only sell multi-viscosity now, I'll probably change over to Penn on the next oil-change. I notice VR-1 is available in straight 30w, but on Summit, its the same price as the Penn.
     
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