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Jere Jobe Stromberg knockoff test results

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Irish Mike, Mar 28, 2009.

  1. continentaljohn
    Joined: Jul 24, 2002
    Posts: 5,506

    continentaljohn
    Member

    Well said:D!!
     
  2. I respect his test and opinion. As I remember the comedian Dennis Miller saying, "What difference does it make if it's cheaper at K-Mart. If it's shit, it's shit. Two for one sale doesn't make it any better".

    I guess we can put this carb in the same category as Flaming Rivers Vega steering box.

    A rebuilt original is better than an offshore produced new one.

    Glad I still have access to old stuff and can't afford new stuff. That eliminates the disappointment of wasting my $dough$.
     
  3. Ryan
    Joined: Jan 2, 1995
    Posts: 21,633

    Ryan
    ADMINISTRATOR
    Staff Member

    I disassembled one last weekend along side a real 97. I'm no expert and Jere could mentally crush me, but I gotta say - I couldn't believe how cheaply made and "un-tactile" this carb was. Now, I REALLY don't like those Barry Grant 2-barrels that they half-tried to make look like Strombergs, but I would run one of those over this Speedway thing in a NYC minute. It's hard to put into words how poorly made and appearing these carbs really are...
     
  4. Flat Ernie
    Joined: Jun 5, 2002
    Posts: 8,406

    Flat Ernie
    Tech Editor

    Do you know they WEREN'T prototypes? Or initial production carbs? Even the vaunted new Strombergs were plagued with issues early on. They did the same thing - sent the carbs out to people to test. Then made improvements.

    In aviation, there is Developmental Test & Engineering (DT&E) and Operational Test & Engineering (OT&E). Both are DESIGNED to FIND flaws so they can be addressed. How do we know that's not what's going on? So far, nobody who has evaluated one has been able to tell me if it's a full production piece, pre-production piece, prototype, or full-on production carb as delivered on order...

    I respect Jere and any of the other major Carb rebuilders who dedicate themselves to making our old carbs run great. But in my very limited dealing with several of these guys is they are all like us - real people with strong opinions. There is a fair bit of animosity between some of these respected builders.

    I'm not saying Jere sandbagged the evaluation, rather, that I tend to agree that it wasn't a formal eval, rather an informal one instead. If there's emotion and your engineering background means you now can't take it for what it is, that's your problem. If you want to pony up the dollars for a formal eval, I'm sure he'd oblige.

    Same question for you, Ryan. Is it a prototype, pre-production, first-run production for evaluation, or a full-on, as-ordered production piece delivered to a customer?


    I'm not defending either side here, just looking for the nugget of info that will put into context the evaluation.
     
  5. I appreciate all these opinions - especially the ones by guys who have had their mits on them. Personally, if I couldn't afford Clive's new Stromberg 97's - you can easily pick them up for $400 - 425, then I'd find old originals and rebuild them myself. If I didn't know how, then I'd send them to Uncle Max, Duane, Dickster or somebody else who does. Why spend $300 a piece for inferior crap . . . makes no sense in my mind.
     
  6. Weasel
    Joined: Dec 30, 2007
    Posts: 6,698

    Weasel
    Member

    Okay, so we have all the postulating, hypothesizing and semantics about the 'scientificness' of Jere' report. He says they're crap - how hard is that to understand? Or is it essential to make some of you 'feely better' by arguing to death about the 'relevancy of why', because without doing so you feel all deprived of your entitlement to blow hot air?:confused:
     
  7. You've said it well . . . we asked Jere for his opinion, because we believe his reputation and work renders his opinion valid. He can give it any dang way he pleases (who was paying him - nobody) - if we don't like it, tough shit -- we asked, he gave. Opinions are like the Fortune Teller - believe what you want and throw the rest away. For those who don't like the opinion of Jere - go spend your money and buy some Speedway carbs, then you can form your opinion based on your own personal facts and wallet.
     
  8. bobscogin
    Joined: Feb 8, 2007
    Posts: 1,771

    bobscogin
    Member

    Not hard at all, but what amazes me is that how few here give consideration to the fact that a man who is emotionally and financially invested in the rebuilding of original Stromberg 97 carbs may--maybe just a little bit-- have an agenda that could unfavorably bias his opinion toward a product that could diminish his business? I'm not saying that the Speedway knock off ISN'T a POS. I have no idea either way. I'm simply saying that until I hear results from an UNBIASED source, I'll hold my tongue. This entire discussion reminds me of the original vs. repop Harley springer discussion over on the Jockey journal that pits the "original parts elitist" against the guys who are satisfied with a reasonably priced fork that works for them by being a reasonably close, functional piece.

    Bob
     
  9. George
    Joined: Jan 1, 2005
    Posts: 7,723

    George
    Member

    Notice that the report says the carb was delivered March 18 '09, that was 11 days ago. If Speedway has the carbs in stock for delivery you can be sure that Jere tested a production carb, vs a report about a carb delivered say a year ago, that might have been a prototype. Does Speedway have them, or are they back ordered for eventual delivery?
     
  10. Ryan
    Joined: Jan 2, 1995
    Posts: 21,633

    Ryan
    ADMINISTRATOR
    Staff Member

    I was looking at a production carb ordered from Speedway by a regular old customer.

    This is a mess that can't be explained by pre-production or prototype flaws... It's wayyy worse than that.
     
  11. Flat Ernie
    Joined: Jun 5, 2002
    Posts: 8,406

    Flat Ernie
    Tech Editor

    Yes, I did notice the date. I know Abbin received one quite some time ago (late last summer maybe?) & reported his findings to Speedy Bill.

    It could be limited production or pre-production. I don't know & it's not clear in Jere's report.

    At least one person reports they have one and it's running fine on their car.

    Perhaps the handful of pre-production pieces were sent from evaluator to evaluator and are only recently making their way to Jere? Or perhaps Jere only just got around to doing it? It's simply not clear.
     
  12. Littleman
    Joined: Aug 25, 2004
    Posts: 2,617

    Littleman
    Alliance Member
    from OHIO, USA

    If one desires to run the 97's-48's-81's-94's ect..............it's in their best interest to learn how they work and rebuild and adjust their own stuff whenever possible......When I first attempted to use the older carbs......I had someone do them......It was a 100% bad experience..and from a so-called high end builder....but it turned out to be a blessing in disguise.....it forced me to learn them real fast.....and I guarentee the carbs that were sent to me would not be performing the same as I have gotten them to do so.....I experiment with everything on them now and probably only know half of what I need to know.....If you run them you need to know how to maintain them..........If you would learn them .......you would not even entertain the new carbs..but I do realize not everyone wants to learn them..........Littleman
     
  13. Kilroy
    Joined: Aug 2, 2001
    Posts: 3,227

    Kilroy
    Member
    from Orange, Ca

    Dude... Did you even read it?!

    How much more detailed could he be?

    Whatever... Shoot the messanger... Buy the carb and test it yourself...
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2009
  14. Kilroy
    Joined: Aug 2, 2001
    Posts: 3,227

    Kilroy
    Member
    from Orange, Ca

    Or maybe... They're just shitty carbs...

    It doesn't matter to me... They would have to be like bolt-on fuel injection for around half the price of buying a Gennie Stromberg and rebuilding it myself before I'd even consider running one... Carbs are just too important to the look and feel of a traditional engine to fuck around with fakes...

    If God himself came down and told people how to die rich, happy, and over-sexed... Some people would ask Him for his published data...
     
  15. The only criticism of this test, is based on the author's writing style.
    That makes no sense at all.


    Maybe someone here can document their own tests, of these "carbs",
    including HP, torque, AFR, and BSFC numbers, following SAE standards,
    then submit them here for criticism. Show us how to write a report properly.

    Do you think the conclusion of the report will be any different ?
     
  16. Kilroy
    Joined: Aug 2, 2001
    Posts: 3,227

    Kilroy
    Member
    from Orange, Ca

    That, and I'm sure Jere would have done that very thing considering he did all this on his Dyno... Only the crappy carb wouldn't even idle right... Forget power/flow pulls...
     


  17. Come on now, facts have no place in a technical report.
    They are a sign of the author's bias. :rolleyes:
     
  18. Scott Miller
    Joined: Jun 2, 2005
    Posts: 779

    Scott Miller
    Member
    from Tampa, Fla

    First of all, a big THANKS to Mr Jere Jobe for taking the time to do what you did for us. My hats off to you, you obviously took the time to do part measurements and tests the average yo-yo wouldn't have thought of. I had been wondering if they would be quality parts and now I know. So thanks and sorry that some people on here can only criticize ones work.

    And for those who don't know, the "9 super 7's" are advertised in the latest speedway catalogs, in multiple places, so I'm guessing they are selling them without looking back. No pre-production tests here fellas...
     
  19. The only sure answer right now is "time will tell" and I am sure it will be reported here at length long before any other medium. The preliminary reports don't look good and it will only get worse if Speedway doesn't address them quickly and directly, and by offering any disatisfied customers an immediate refund or replacement with an improved version. From what I've read so far casting accuracy and quality may require a complete retooling.
     
  20. belair
    Joined: Jul 10, 2006
    Posts: 9,013

    belair
    Member

    ...and some trash Barry Grant for his carbs.
     
  21. Shifty Shifterton
    Joined: Oct 1, 2006
    Posts: 4,964

    Shifty Shifterton
    Member

    Take it from a guy who's put a lot of food on the table performing lab testing, and authoring test reports that go far deeper............

    The very first sentence of Visual Observations identifies this as an advertisement, not a scientific report. The rest of the document continues to use biased phrasing and mixes opinion with fact.

    I'm thankful for the information, but frankly the way it presents opinion as science just stinks. The author may be a master of carburetion and a very honest person, but you just don't present documents like that as an engineering study. If presented to a room full of engineering peers, you'd be lucky to escape bloody & shredded. The claws of neutral analysis are quite sharp.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2009
  22. Mike51Merc
    Joined: Dec 5, 2008
    Posts: 3,856

    Mike51Merc
    Member

    I agree with the style critics. I was disappointed when the emotion boiled over. I'm sure Jere knows his stuff, but this sounded even worse than a competitor trashing another's product.

    We also have libel and slander laws that provide that truth is a defense. In other words, if you can prove it then you can publish it, if not you're taking serious risks.

    Just the facts, ma'am
    Joe Friday
     
  23. Kilroy
    Joined: Aug 2, 2001
    Posts: 3,227

    Kilroy
    Member
    from Orange, Ca

    What the hell is he advertising? That Speedway's carb sucks...

    He's not getting paid for this...

    Of course it has his opinion in it... THAT'S what was ASKED of him...

    99% of the Hot Rodders out there don't have the experience/knowledge with vintage carburation that Jere has... His OPINION is valuable... Perhapse MORE valuable than just the facts...

    I was raised around Engineers and Scientists... I work with engineers everyday... I write Engineering documents and have written them for almost 15 years now...

    Scientific documentation is ALWAYS biased... There aren't too many FACTs in scientific study, and ALL DATA is up for interpretation...

    There is no such thing as an "Unbiased Study"... Every document ever published has elements of emotion and promotion in it...

    You don't like the result of his research, fine... Find a better way to rebut it than 'your writing style sucks'... That's just lame...

    Or put your money where your mouth is and buy a carb and tell us how awesome it is...
     
  24. Kilroy
    Joined: Aug 2, 2001
    Posts: 3,227

    Kilroy
    Member
    from Orange, Ca

    Libel laws don't work that way...

    It's not "If you can prove it, you can publish it"... It's "If I can prove you published something slanderous or untrue, that caused my financial, physical, or emotional harm, I can sue you..."

    So Speedway could sue Jere, IF they could prove what he said was false... And if they could prove it harmed their business in some way...

    That's why Jere signed it, and put his contact info on it... He's not getting sued for libel...

    The FACTs are useless unless you have the experience/technical knowledge to interpret them yourself...

    Can we kill this thread now... The FACTs are out there... NOBODY can dispute what Jere said... It's just a bunch of bitching about how the info was delivered... Take it or leave it... It makes no difference.

    You either open your eyes or you don't... If you don't, it might cost you... You decide.
     
  25. madmax
    Joined: May 2, 2006
    Posts: 42

    madmax
    Member
    from Calif.

    These are cast aluminum bases the ones your are refering to are die cast a world of diff re: heat distribution, throttle shaft wear etc.

    PS Jere Jobe is a well respected and credible source , and simply because there is not tech charts etc to be politically correct, his work is unsurpassed.

    So jump the fuck off the fence, rent some cocanuts and tell it like it is , Speedway for the bucks China Shit the vehicle.
     
  26. Hot Rod Michelle
    Joined: May 3, 2007
    Posts: 1,620

    Hot Rod Michelle
    Member

    Agreed!:)
     
  27. duste01
    Joined: Nov 5, 2006
    Posts: 1,213

    duste01
    Member

    I feel the same way everytime i set a carter afb next to an edelbrock
     
  28. Flat Ernie
    Joined: Jun 5, 2002
    Posts: 8,406

    Flat Ernie
    Tech Editor

    Just because they're advertising them does NOT mean that Jere has a production line carb.

    How long has Kirby been advertising the aluminum flathead? Is it being delivered?

    Hear! Hear! There isn't a single thing published anywhere that doesn't have bias or agenda behind it. You may agree with the bias, you may agree with the agenda, but it's still there. Granted, emotive words will evoke an emotional response, as is the case here, but it doesn't change the fact all reports are biased.
     
  29. <!-- / icon and title --><!-- message -->
    Sort of exactly what was expected..in terms of the carburrettors performance,
    but a little steep on the derogatory tone in the writing.I think it would be taken more seriously as a 'scientific ' type of report without the emotion that is bubbling under the surface !

    I wouldnt buy one if it was the last fuel mixing device on earth...Id rather spit fuel out my mouth in the general direction of the manifold hole than bolt one of them on.:)
    <!-- / message --><!-- sig -->__________________
    spitten fuel out of my mouth! agreed!


    I love it!
     
  30. Rocket Scientist Chris
    Joined: Mar 3, 2001
    Posts: 602

    Rocket Scientist Chris
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I don't think Jere was asked to give anything scientific. To me, it appears he was asked as a Subject Matter Expert to give an opinion on whether or not the carburetor was operationally ready to perform its function as designed and delivered. His report states it is not and cites some design errors and production deficiencies. It's his opinion as a Subject Matter Expert.

    I don't think anyone could critcise the information given, only the way it was presented. I've seen many presentations like this and they have been perfectly acceptable to upper management and the paying customers. They want the bottom line: will it work, if not, why and how do we get it to work. Sometimes Subject Matter Expert's opinions are more valuable than numbers and graphs.:)
     

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