I've always painted laquer in the past and am now finding it almost impossible to buy. Am planning to use enamel with hardener on my next project. Do hardeners contain isocyanides? Any extra care that I need to take with the enamel? Thanks. Pete
....and then talk to folks who do it for a living and discover they dont' use the required supplied air respirator.... at least that's what I've seen
just a good respirator and ask the supplier just in case. welcome to california in the 80's (maybe 70's), when i took at body class in 90 (or so) acrylic enamel was all you could get anymore..........now you can't even get that, it's all urethane now.
If you are refering to 2K enamel, yes they have isocynides in them, yes they are LEATHAL, yes paint them for a day without a correct resperator and you will get sick and probably thow up, paint them for a job every day and you will be seriously ill quite quick. So use a fresh air sealed to your face resperator making sure the supply of air to the compressor supplying the fresh air is NOT in the area of paint fumes! and also wear gloves and full paper overalls- the stuff can be absorbed through your skin! also mix them in a well vented area-preferably wearing all your gear.
I will never understand how this shit can be considered safer" than Lacquer. Women and boys in West Hollyweird still put Lacquer on their nails. and you can still buy gallons of cheap-ass low quality lacquer thinner at Home DepoT $o what give$?
When you buy the paint, ask the dealer for the Material Safety Data Sheets (MSDS) on ALL the products you are buying from them. Also ask them to tell you the proper cartridge for your face mask to use with the products you are buying. Better yet go to the manufacturer's web site and get the information directly BEFORE you buy the stuff. The manufacturer's are making this available to their customers. If the dealer either refuses to give you the MSDS's or claims he doesn't have them, FIND ANOTHER DEALER. They are required to have the information (MSDS) available for their employees and therefore have it for you also. This goes for any chemical you buy and/or use, not just paint.
You know how it hardens whatever it's in ? That's what it does to your lung fibers. And no, it's not a particulate problem that a filter will physically screen out like dust or floating overspray....it's "in" the air. You can still smell the smell of it with those 3M masks most people use, which means you're getting it. Like how you can't see or smell a colorless & odorless gas, except it's not odorless. The only way around is a clean air exchange system from an external clean air source. Supplied air. It' also soaks through your pores & skin & eyeballs if exposed.
Hotrodboy is correct. This stuff stays active for 8 hours. Then the particles fall out of suspension from the air. The autobodystore.com has got fair prices on respirators. If you can't afford this, don't paint. Pay someone else to do it. You won't find out how your body will react until it's too late. Everyone knows someone who will tell you that you're ok to use a 3m respirator. Don't listen to them unless you don't care about your health. The only paint left on the market that doesn't contain isocys will only last about 2 years in the sun. Do you want to waste your time? Inexpensive paint? Sure, try smartshoppersinc.com for Kirker urethane.
While cyanide is poisonous Isocyanides are only moderately toxic. Isocyanates on the other hand are another beast. But know this... there are different chemical compounds all commonly referred to as Isocyanates. Overexposure to Methyl Isocyanate is what killed 3800 people in Bopal, India in 1984. The chemicals used to harden polyurethane enamels are called Isocynates but are not near as deadly as Methyl Isocyanate. However there are chemical similarities. And they are all TOXIC. The three main forms of Isocyanates used for polyurethane reaction are: TDI, MDI and HDI. These forms react with an alcohol to produce a urethane linkage. These compounds are reactive and therefore toxic and are known to cause asthma in humans, both through inhalation exposure and dermal contact. The quickest way to become sensitized to Iso's is to breath them. What happens is the Iso reacts with water (moisture in your lungs) to become a polyurea. Polyurea is a hard plastic that is now in the lung tissue. Your body doesn't like this foreign object and starts to fight it like a bad bug. The most common reaction is an asthmatic reaction where the bronchial tubes become inflamed and restrict, shutting off airflow. If you are asthmatic and become sensitized you are in big trouble real quick. If youre not asthmatic it will just take a little longer to become sensitized. Given enough exposure ALL persons will eventually become sensitized. Dermal reactions take place in individuals who develop a dermal sensitive to the chemical. Blond haired, blue eyed, fair skinned people seem to suffer before person of darker complexion. So there is only ONE way to deal with the new 2K Polyurethane Enamels. You MUST spray in an area with adequate ventilation to reduce exposure to the skin. You MUST use a forced air respirator and wear protective clothing and appropriate eye, and skin protection. A chemical cartridge respirator will not provide antiquate protection. A dust mask will KILL you. With Nitrocellulose lacquer you would just pickle your brain with enough exposure to the solvents but ISOs will destroy your health real quick. DONT TAKE A CHANCE. DO IT RIGHT AND LIVE TO ENJOY THE GOOD LIFE.
Go with what Autorewire said. Isocyanates are nasty shit. Once you become sensitive to them, it's permanent. If you have any lung condition including asthma, avoid like the plague. Pro's use disposable suiting, gloves, full air-fed masks and only ever in a spray booth with water filtration. The air is fed down the booth towards a grille in the floor with a water channel to catch the vapour. I've read of people permanently disabled from work because of exposure.
Read post #11 by Purplepickup.... http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3726&&showall=1
now i'm kinda freaked out........went and checked the labels. dp40lf (lead free) none dp402lf (lead free catalyst) none dar 9000 (acrylic enamel) dt870 (acrylic enamel hardener) none dcx61 (high solids hardener urethane) isocyanate polymer, hexamethylene-di-isocyanate. concept dcc (acrylic urethane) none i was thinking about getting a full face resp. but do you think the carbon will be ok with this paints/primer.
The DP primers are epoxy which when liquid, are just as harmful as isocynates. Always wear full protection when using this stuff and if you are unsure wear it anyway. I bought a supplird air respirator a couple of years ago, and it was the best purchase I ever made. I hate wearing the thing, but I feel much better the day after. The worst part about it is the air gets hot when the pump runs for a while. I bought one of the less expensive hobbyair systems, so maybe one of the professional systems doesn't have a problem like that. Dave
Yeah- I have permanent damage to my respiratory system becuz of the fuckers. Back when you didnt "HAVE' to wear respirators and fresh air systems, I painted laquer and didtn give a rats ass. Now I have asthma and choke every time I paint.
You hear it every day. "The Search For The Cause For Cancer". In both polyureathane (like imron), and acrylic enamel. Not just the hardner. The MEDICAL INDUSTRY loves to have people ignore warning lables. It brings them business. People that don't wear complete cover (it is absorbed by the skin),and fresh forced air to the face shield are insane, can't read, lazy, cheap, or at the least, terribly misinformed. Life's hard; harder if you're stupid.
When the subject gets important the experts on the HAMB always chime in with the facts. And to Roost, thanks for correcting me about the respirator. Obviously a forced air respirator is needed with this stuff as well as skin and eye protection.
Question for the painters. I have a fresh air resperater with a half mask. The pump has no filter on it. I have 50 ft of hose. I would like to put a case arround the pump and add filters. Should I bother. I think it is possible that the pump could pick up the fumes. Is higher better. Should I just get a hundred ft of pvc and extend the hose? Are adaquate filters avail. What do they look like and do you have a part number. I live in the sticks and nobody around here knows jack s**t. They spray without masks,in short sleave shirts in closed garages.
Andy, there is a ton of government and private info sites on painting safety if you google it. Like this one for example... http://www.signweb.com/fabrication/cont/spray990517.html Mutt
For my fresh air mask I use a seperate compressor, a small portable they use for shingles, nailers, got it on sale at Harbour Freight for $85. I put it outside in the shade away from any fumes, the fresh air smells good.
Be careful when choosing a compressor for fresh air! You'll want to AVOID anything that uses OIL in it. A "piston" type pump uses oil to lubricate the internals and as such you are at risk to get oil vapor mixed in with your "fresh" air. Breathing in OIL ain't any too good for you either!!!! I'm thinking you'd want a diaphram type pump or maybe a centrifugal type pump - no chance of mixing oil in your air supply that way. I'm not sure what type the Harbor Fright ones are - just thought I'd mention it- just in case.
Doc, It's not about safety, it's about VOC's. Lacquer is low solids high solvent. The solvents evaporate into the air. The newer products are high solids, low solvent. More of the material stays on the car, less in the air. This is also the reason for HVLP paint guns. Higher transfer rate. More paint on the car, less in the air.
Oil vapor is just as bad at the track. Better than cancer causing cyclo-stuff, LOL!!. Seriously, Air/oil separator filter, just like the one in the paint gun line.[/
Here is the best way to put this...how many OLD body men/painters do you know?.....Not many I'd bet.Just because you can buy the equipment barely makes it ok to paint at home.I am not an environmentalist by no means.I am speaking from experience,having painted a few cars without a fresh air supplied respirator when I was younger.It is all fun,and nice to do yourself.Just seemed like I always had a few days of recuperation afterward.And that was using the best 3M face mask available. Isocyanates will also kill your vision.A friend of my dad;s who was a body man from the late 60's until 1985 died a blind man from lung disease. Make friends with a body man/painter,pay him a few bucks and consider it cheaper than a doctor visit.
You buying that filter at Harbor Fright too???? Seriously - my point is: Now you are RELYING on THAT filter - I don't know about you guys but I have a REAL good OIL SEPARATER on my compressor and STILL I put that throw away "last ditch" filter attached to my paint gun before spraying anything - just as cheap insurance! Why? 'cause I don't trust the separator! And if ya can't trust the separator for a lousy paint job I sure as hell ain't gonna trust it with my lungs!!! But you're right - IF you have 100 percent confidence in your separator - then go ahead - no biggie. IF you'd rather avoid the chance go get the fool proof method - no oil to begin with!!! Your mileage may vary....
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