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Projects Is this overkill for a frame?

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by justadream, Apr 18, 2017.

  1. justadream
    Joined: Mar 2, 2009
    Posts: 147

    justadream
    Member
    from Vermont

    As some of you know I have started a 60 comet project that im going to turn into a gasser with a caddy 500ci motor and auto trans with a stall converter, probably a 2500. My question is with the drawing I have in the pic with the different colors and listed material, will this be overkill for a frame. The green, which is the 2x3 will be slipped inside the front frame section that I already boxed in with 1/8 plate around the original frame. The square section on each side will be 2x3 as well and I was going to use go towards the back to tie into the rear section that I will plate in like I did the front, so it will be one piece straight back from the squared off sections. I hope this makes sense. So if anyone thinks this will work please let me know, or not work either. This is my first attempt to build a frame on something like this. I was just keeping in mind of the torque of the motor and dont want any twist to it. Screenshot_2017-04-18-13-40-11.png
     
  2. justadream
    Joined: Mar 2, 2009
    Posts: 147

    justadream
    Member
    from Vermont

    Forgot to mention that where the cross piece is that is connected to the tunnel will also be 2x3.
     
  3. I would just use sub frame connectors out of 2x3x1/8 and 1" cross pieces so my floor boards and seats has=d some place to land.
     
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  4. oj
    Joined: Jul 27, 2008
    Posts: 6,257

    oj
    Member

    The short sections outboard won't be doing anything. What I'd do is run straight from firewall rearward with rail being narrower in front and getting wider at the rear. They should hit that crossmember at the same place as where the rear framerails take off from. I think that was how the original 'Zeeker' chassis ran, try to google it. You'll need some rocker bars, seat mount bars etc.
     

  5. theHIGHLANDER
    Joined: Jun 3, 2005
    Posts: 8,120

    theHIGHLANDER
    Member

    The 1/8th shear plates are overkill. You could get the same "work" from .072 sheet stock. If it's indeed in shear. I wish I had a $100 bill for every "I'm not racing it on the strip so I don't need..." Every mile driven on the street delivers double or more the beating the car would take at nice dragstrip. In your (and my) part of the country a lot more because of road quality, actually lack of road quality so main structure being heavy is good for a car that will see street duty as well as some track time. Still, the 1/8th plate is just weight and you could bead roll some heavy sheet stock and get the same work. And, sorry in advance, but will likely look a bit ugly too. Just sayin...
     
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  6. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 17,899

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    It is still a frame largely on one 3" plane.

    Big torque + no triangulation = bent car.
     
  7. Mike VV
    Joined: Sep 28, 2010
    Posts: 2,186

    Mike VV
    Member
    from SoCal

    justadream wrote -
    "with a caddy 500ci motor and auto trans with a stall converter, probably a 2500."

    For what it's worth...
    ALL torque converters have a "stall" speed, (unless they are broken !!).

    Mike
     
  8. justadream
    Joined: Mar 2, 2009
    Posts: 147

    justadream
    Member
    from Vermont

    Anything else you want to pick out from my other comments? NO SHIT they all have a stall speed, I was implying a little higher then a stock one.
     
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  9. oj
    Joined: Jul 27, 2008
    Posts: 6,257

    oj
    Member

    A missing part of your equation is the cage, that factors heavily into the frame design. Whenever tubes intesect there should be a 3rd tube, you don't just weld a tube into the middle of a run of another tube. The simplest you make it the better it'll be. From your pic I see the rear looks wide, is that for the leafspring pockets? Are you planning to use ladder bars with housing floaters?
    If you give the subframe width at firewall, the rear frame width at the rear crossmember, the distance from front to back and how wide the car is at the drip rail of the rocker I'll draw it up in autocad so you can see it and then others can add their advice.
     
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  10. justadream
    Joined: Mar 2, 2009
    Posts: 147

    justadream
    Member
    from Vermont

    The pic is off the front inside of the car. The plan I drew up, and that way, is because it does not have any torque boxes in it so I was going to try and build them into it, so thats why I was thinking to use the 2x3 going across where the toe board is, then use the 1/8 plate from where the floor would be, up the front firewall to plate up the opening of the front frame section that is visible, thats what the pink color is in the pic up above. Since I am suppossed to think triangle, I may have come up with another plan to throw some triangulation in the equation. Thinking X frame kinda deal. Also, another thing in that pic above, the green 2x3 that goes towards the back will be out enough to where I could tie into the rear section of the frame because it sits out further the the front, then plate all that up like I did the front.
     
  11. I always seem to look at things different than most so I have a couple questions for ya. Am I correct in thinking the Comet is a unibody car? in other words no actual Frame separate of the floor pan. Looking at all the total 2x3 tube you plan to piece together it looks like you starting with enough material to make a full length Frame if you didn't cut it up into small pieces. It appears you already have most of the floor pan cut out of the car. Why not do yourself and the Car a favor and just build a full length Frame and make your job much easier than the direction your headed?
    The Wizzard
     
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  12. What he said (Pist-n-Broke)
     
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  13. Engine man
    Joined: Jan 30, 2011
    Posts: 3,476

    Engine man
    Member
    from Wisconsin

    That 500 Cadillac has a lot of torque so overkill is advisable.

    I started building an old pickup with the 500 Caddy hidden in the box and an exposed 4 cylinder up front. Preliminary tests with the 500 in the rear indicated the front end wouldn't stay on the ground under acceleration.
     
  14. mohead1
    Joined: Jan 18, 2013
    Posts: 585

    mohead1
    Member

    Cut all the stock crap out of it, build a full length frame from rad back, make a rear crossmember and narrow the rear rails to it for tire clearance and ladder bar mounts

    Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
     
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  15. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 17,899

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    It is, and one made of 20ga. and 12ga. at that. Not even the factory put a 260 or a 289 in these without making the shell thicker, adding torque boxes, and a whole lot more and thicker metals to the subframe rails.
     
  16. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 17,899

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    You are thinking horizontal. You will need vertical triangles as well. A flat-plane frame will twist under load. The body of this car is not strong enough to resist that force.

    I think I may have failed to get the point across before just how weak the shells are on these. There is a reason why the OEM changed these, almost immediately.

    If you fail to properly add the correct amount of metal, of the correct design, and in the correct location, you will end up with a car whose doors don't open (ever again), does not go down the road straight, or has a catastrophic structural failure.

    My heavily braced '60 Falcon can break side glass as lateral loading approaches 0.95G, and it only has a 6-cylinder.

    You have said: "This is my first attempt to build a frame on something like this."

    That said, I have built, modified, and tuned a few hundred chassis, and have the engineering background to back it up.

    You need to listed to the advice that is being given to you, for free, and not try to force this to go the way you want it to.

    They are not called "The Friendly Suggestions of Physics". They are called The Laws of Physics, and they pay no heed to the plans of man, no matter how great.
     
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  17. justadream; Gimpyshotrod is dead on. I too have built many a Chrome Molly tube chassis and been around big horse power most of my life. Not saying you can't do things your way but you will soon be sitting around feeling like your call name wondering how others do it. Don't turn your Dream into Scrap Iron. Do a little more homework and re group. Just some friendly advice.
    The Wizzard
     
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  18. justadream
    Joined: Mar 2, 2009
    Posts: 147

    justadream
    Member
    from Vermont

    This is ALL WHY im asking for help, not some bullshit comments. If you have suggestions then put it down. If I NEED TO BUILD A WHOLE DAMN FRAME THEN SAY SO, thats why I ask. Falcons were not made for a V8 but its been done. Guess those didnt work for them builds either?
     
  19. justadream
    Joined: Mar 2, 2009
    Posts: 147

    justadream
    Member
    from Vermont

    I plan on putting a cage in it too and whetever else I will need to help strenghten it up
     
  20. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 17,899

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Okay: If you want to run a Cadillac 500, you need a full frame, and a 12-point cage.

    After that, I'm done helping.
     
  21. Undoubtably this is way more than you want or need to do. I put this up so you can see what it takes to stop tortional twist. Nov. 2011 001.jpg Horse power or in your case C.I. can only do part of the issue. The tire foot print is the anchor that carries out the end result. If you would like an Excelent example of more styles and very home builder friendly go to Chris Alston chassis works web sight and I think you can sort through and make some very good choices for what ever you plan to build. A lot of what is necessary is what you plan to do with the Car. Don't kid your self in saying "I'm not going to stand on it real hard". I try not to Blast people with insults of there plans, rather help them make a better choice. If you think my comments were Bull Shit then maybe we just talk a different language and I should just step out of this.
    The Wizzard
     
  22. jimmy959
    Joined: Oct 16, 2011
    Posts: 110

    jimmy959
    Member

    Word to the wise….instead of getting all pissed off at the people who are trying to help you (TYPING IN ALL CAPS), maybe you should chill out and have a beer. Then get back on here and treat these guys with the respect they deserve. Like Gimpy says, you’re getting all this expert advice FOR FREE.
     
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  23. saltflats
    Joined: Aug 14, 2007
    Posts: 10,448

    saltflats
    Member
    from Missouri

    To answer your question...It is under kill and over complicated for what you want.
    You have some solid advice...set back and think about it for a bet and think about what you want your end results to look like.
     
    Hnstray likes this.
  24. Well, quit using that incorrect term then, so we can get back to the frame.

    Now, You haven't stated your vision for this project.
    Are you just going to cruise to the Friday night get -together with a poseur car,
    or, do you want to take it to the nostalgia drags at Epping or Lebanon, put some real slicks on it, and run in the 11.50 range, with 60' -ers in the 1.50's ?
    Let's back up and start there. It makes a big difference for what you need, and what you don't.
     
  25. F-ONE
    Joined: Mar 27, 2008
    Posts: 2,461

    F-ONE
    Member
    from Alabama

    I think you have two primary ways to go....
    1. The unitized body concept with a rebuilt floor, torque box and sub frame conectors. Look at how Big Block Mustangs and especially how 427 Thunderbolt Fairlanes were done.

    2. Full Frame......Maybe a donor vehicle is in order. For some reason I'm thinking 61-64 F100 as a base frame for this.

    You need to really research this. Your design to me looks overbuilt and underbuilt at the same time. Have you seen anything remotely like that on a vehicle?
    When the floor went bye bye this turned into a major project......I know it would be too much for me.
    I would put the tools down and invest in a an education for this subject. I would research and buy books and really study up on this. There should be plenty of Chassis books and or booklets available. Maybe you can visit a local race shop or builder.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2017
  26. Does this look familiar?
    image.jpeg

    The inner rockers need to be full length substantial pieces.
    I've used 1x3 X 16ga when I had something solid left in the car to work with.
    I've used 1x3x 1/8 when there was nothing then attached outer rocker skins to it.
    Those substantial inner rockers pieces get tied into to the rails.
    The 2x3 main rails run straight up to your front sections or remove the current front sections and run the 2x3 right out to the bumper. It is better to splay them out towards the rear. From there you add the cage and off you go toward great torsional rigidity

    You will have trouble pulling this off correctly on a sub shoe string budget, a stingy old lady, and wood cribbing supports.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2017
    harpo1313, mohead1 and justadream like this.
  27. Another approach
    See how the triangulated torque box is formed up front?

    image.jpeg
     
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  28. mcmopar
    Joined: Nov 12, 2012
    Posts: 1,591

    mcmopar
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Strum, wi

    I have nothing to offer on building of the frame, but on relations to the people here. There is a lot of very smart people that have done what you are looking to do. Would you have the same attitude if you were standing in a circle and talking to the same people? If ya did ya might end up with a black eye. You have 2 eyes, 2ears, and 1 mouth, more looking, listening, and less talking and your project will turn out great.
    Tony
     
  29. hemifalcon
    Joined: Mar 20, 2008
    Posts: 379

    hemifalcon
    Member

    Man--super sensitive here OP.. Get over the feelings of the harsh and direct comments and grow up.. Or--before asking questions-do some reading and research as plenty of people have come and DONE before you and have written about it.. Quit being such a pussy.
    Oh-and if you're putting a decently engineered cage in it-you're half-ass plan will work just fine.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  30. justadream
    Joined: Mar 2, 2009
    Posts: 147

    justadream
    Member
    from Vermont

    Now this is what im talking about, THANKS 31vic. After all the bitching, I was thinking like either of them 2. I walked away, smoked a little weed and came up with kinda a combo of both. Do you have any idea what the space is between the inside of the rear rails? Believe or not, I googled them and came up with three different widths, 24, 26, and 28 and thinking of going with the 26 only because it matches up with the front rails. The 2x3 will slide right in thr front frame section so it will give me something to weld the sides of the tubing to as well as around the edges of the old frame to the new, then build in my cross sections. Thanks again. SORRY TO EVERYONE I bitched at, I was in a VERY bad mood and took it out on you and I shouldnt have. I suffer from major depression and anxiety and they were just both at the over the limit point. SORRY ONCE AGAIN, and thanks.
     
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