Is there any wyotech or other auto trade school teachers out there

Here is the best example I can offer. When I was 21, I quit my job at a body shop and decided to try truck driving. I got hired on for company paid training at Schneider. They made me sign a "covenant,not to compete" clause in my employment contract. After I had passed all of the requirements/training,and was given actual employment , I could not go to work for another company without reimbursing them for my licensing/training costs until I had worked for them full time for a year. After a year, I believe somehow they could write it off.

The only problem I could see for you, would be making it legally binding. Otherwise it would be nothing more than a "scare tactic". I applaud you for taking the measures you have taken this far. I wish I had somebody like you to work for when I was that age. My life would have been a lot easier. I remember what it was like having that child-like enthusiasm, and having it tainted upon entering the real world. It's like finding out there's no Santa Claus. However,I feel it is a rite of passage, and a necessary one at that. That's how a boy becomes a MAN. I feel you have already done more than you should have, but you have the right to do whatever you want. You shouldn't have to worry so much about whether or not you're gonna hurt their feelings. On the flipside, you also shoudln't-not care at all. You, sir, are far from the average "asshole". If he cowered under that little bit of stress, then he would never make it anyway. I hope I don't come off too harsh, but I know I'm right. If he wants to do this kind of work, he needs to realize this. That's probably the only other thing you should reach out to him for, to explain. If you're a good enough teacher, and you feel he really does have what it takes, then you will drill him to do the task he fails at until he succeeds. Simply tell him its not right yet, and ask him why it isn't. Make HIM tell you what he did wrong. That is how you find out if he can hack it. You have to make them think like you do. After that, they'll damn near teach themselves. And if you're not willing to do that, then you shouldn't bother. I mean, its as simple as teaching a kid how to ride a bike. The smarter ones will learn by watching others who know how and ask a lot of questions. Inquisitiveness will take you far. It's like they say..."a fool learns from his own mistakes, a wise man learns from the mistakes of others". I follow this myself, along with "ignorance is no defense".


At one point in my youth, I made one last attempt to make in in the collision field. The best shop I have worked in , was at this time. There was NOTHING this guy wouldn't take on. I mean, he was 26 at the time, and he would build a complete unibody from scratch if he had to. He would not sublet anything mechanical out, he did it all. I was 19 at the time, and it left an impression on me. I came to a realization..." what makes him any different than me? Is he REALLY that much better than me? If I let him teach me to do what he does....could I really do it?" Well, low and behold I could do it. It was tough and stressful, but I prevailed. At the end of the day, these cars are nothing but nuts and bolts and sheemetal. If you accept the challenges, and never give up, you can do anything you want.


eddytheb, I applaud you. The fact that you are bothered so much by this is proof. Most guys I know would have written him off that instant. They would have written me off if I had let them. The best thing you can do as a fresh face to the industry is prove them wrong. It makes it that much more sweet.

 

Wyotech is a scam...i attened there for 6 weeks before i dropped out with the highest grades in my class. Shortage of tools, 50 kids per instructor unlike the 25 they said at orientation, found out i knew more than my instructor in a class i took cause i didn't think i knew enough...and on top of all that, they were advertising for teaching positions needing to be filled with "NO PRIOR EXPERIENCE NEDDED". Then after those 6 weeks and dropping out they stuck me with the bill for a full 12 months of schooling. Its mostly all theory and very little hands on...and as most of you know, until you do something 10 or 20 times you dont know much of what your actually doing. sure it is what you make of it...but when your expecting one thing and not even coming close to it...thats BS. i felt bad for the others there as well, we all used to STS about how things should've been better, and they were planning on taking every course they offered, then going on to make 6 figures a year straight out. most people end up either doing oil changes at a dealership, or remidal body work tasks...nothing close to what they say you can work up to. trying to pay off a $20000 bill at $10 an hour just doesn't cut it. When people see the car i built, i don't hesitate one bit to tell them that i am a wyotech dropout...and look where i am now. whew...sorry i was rambling there...but its good to vent )

 

Seems like Wyotech has a pretty bad reputation - I also have heard lots of bad stuff about the school and its graduates.
Still they seem to be presenting themselves as a really good technical school But according to everything I have heard and also read here that doesn't seem to be true at all.

 

My wife is about half-way through the Collision/Refinishing program at Wyotech right now. She had absolutely no experience doing that work going into the program but knew she wanted to learn it. I will say that I am very proud of how much she has learned, but I know first hand about all of the difficulties she has had with that school. I have met many of her fellow students so I know that they are almost all RETARDS. There are a number of welfare recipients that are only there to get their check. Wyotech enrolls way too many students, and then criticizes their instructors if they expel any of the students. If you *really* want to learn and work *hard* then I think you can succeed at Wyotech. My wife realizes that she will be at the absolute bottom of the food chain once she enters the job market, but she hopes to find a spot for herself in the industry.

 

From two perspectives.
First perspective is that of a teacher. When I retired from the USAF, I took a job teaching electronics for City Colleges of Chicago. They had a contact to provide classes to the military community in Germany. Long story short....I flunked two guys, the dean called me in and demanded I give them extra work so that they could pass. He explained that if they failed, the Army would not pay for their next class, and the school would lose revenue. I hated the job anyway, and I told him to fuck off and we parted ways.

From a student's perspective.
After returning to the states, I decided to use my GI Bill, and took and auto machinist program at a local community college. I was in my 50s, and all my classmates were teenaged freshmen. All they did was text, play car stereo wars, do burnouts, and fuck off, and oh yeah.........pass the courses. I told my instructer he should be ashamed to look in the mirror...he just shrugged his shoulders and went back to reading the paper.

Bottom line....these trade/vocational schools are a business first, and an educational institution second....if at all. They depend on govt money, and have to pass the students in order to keep the cash coming.

 

I guess I won't go to this school. I had a few friends that went to UTI and stuff, one got out of school and is now a tech for Toyota which is cool.
I started working at a resto shop when I was 17, so a lot of the basic stuff like prepping, sanding, bondo etc. I learned there in the short time I was there. I'd love to work at a resto shop again but no one is hiring anyway. Either way I'd still like to take a community college class or two on this stuff, I took an ROP welding program which was free and I learned how to Arc and MIG weld decently. Of course I never got to gas or TIG because the teacher didn't feel that I was ready which I don't see why.

 

I have never been a student at one of those schools, went to the School of Hard Knocks.

But I did take my turn at teaching at one after I decided to try it as an alternative to shop work.

From what I learned then, and from what I get from voc tech instructors I talk to I get the same impression. It's not just wyotech; I believe it's about the same at nearly all vocational schools since Christ was a Corporal. Present day, they couldn't exist without Student Loan Programs sponsored by the U.S. Department of Education.

Read their literature. Get their DVD. It tells prospective students that ninety percent of them can get a high paying job, etc., etc. Lies, lies, lies.
Get an interview by one of their 'enrollment associates', or however they describe their "salesman". Show some interest, and your next appointment is with their flim-flam 'closer'.

My experiences at teaching classes in an Aircraft Mechanic School gave me this perspective. All students will pass, or the instructor will be ran out of town. Any instructor that imagines he is there to train a quality mechanic is told that isn't his primary job. His job is to teach the test, so everybody can pass it. Teach the test, don't make waves, and if a student is illiterate and can't pass the test, give extra credit grades to bring the average up above passing, and shut up or go home. Then, after the student passes the written and practical (school) tests, he is on his own. Those that can't hack it in the real world are fucked, because most of them still owe on their student loan.

 

Wyotech makes it hard to get a job, you have nothing to show but the same paper that all the other fuck ups have, and don't blame the shops that are gun shy about hiring another wyotech kid after dealing with other fuck ups in the past.

My best advice, go to the shops you want to work for, if your lucky you might find one who will give you some of his precious time, tell him your passion and ask for advice on how to get there, do some research on community colleges and such and tell him what you had in mind. We all had to start somewhere and I know I like to see others follow there dream.

 

BINGO............a close friend of mine got a job at the local community college teaching as a tractor trailer instructor, he has 25 years exp driving them.

When it was time to sign off on the students, there were 3 who just plain couldn't drive, he was told "pass them" the school didn't care, he passed them and quit.

 

Have you tried hiring out of community college, or just the private schools? I can't speak for anywhere else, but I can't walk into a body shop in this area without seeing former students. Usually several in any shop I go to.
Sure we have to watch our numbers, and the money end, but nobody tells us to pass students that can't (or more often won't) do the work.
We have a co-op program for students in the last quarter, so the shops can try someone before they hire full time. Most are hired when they finish school.
While far from perfect, I think we have a good program, one that produces good entry level techs. I can't believe we're the only one.

 

When evaluating a voc school: If the school wants you to pay the full cost "up front" and borrow the money (they always will help process the paperwork) before you start, be very very wary. They are in it for the money. You may not finish the program, you may or may not get a job, but you WILL owe the money to a third party. Talk to the people you think you may work for after program completion. Talk to people in the trade. Nothing is easy. Unless your family is superrich, or you marry into money, your going to work hard. Get ready for it.

 

I go to a trade school on my GI Bill, im in a machinist program.
Atleast 75% of the class are fuckoffs. Your right the school is just collecting a check from these people/government.

However, if the school didnt collect the check from these assclowns then they would not be in business for the guys like me who are serious and do actually get something out of the course. My teacher knows it, and he knows that I know it. When im having trouble on a project or have questions, he gives me priority.

We were talking about it at length, it comes down to it if your in the course your an adult. Its your responsibility to get what you want out of it. Other than that the minimum requirements are fairly minimum for you to receive your paper work that says your "competent", not competent in your field but competent to acheive the mimimum standards.

I have very good job opertunities when I get out and I will be sucessfull. When the head hunters come to school, my teacher sends them my way for good jobs. The other guys not so much.

 

There are very good tech schools out there for people who are interested, but you will only get out of it what you put into it. I attended Perry Technical Institute in Yakima, Washington in their electrical technologies program. I worked very hard from day one to be the absolute best in my class. I was 32 when I went in, a retraining worker on Federal funds.

There were a lot, and I mean A LOT, of kids who were there just to get by, some on mommy and daddy's money, some for reasons I never did figure out. I didn't end up being the best in the class but I was damn close. There were some who were passed along, just "getting by", and yes, they didn't deserve it in my opinion, but that's what you get in a capitalist society.

Long story short, the company I was hired by recruited directly out of the school, talking to the instructors and getting their personal opinions. I'll never know what those opinions were, because it'd be career suicide for the teachers, but I got the job, so go figure.

I guess my thing is this: if you're looking for someone with VERY basic knowledge that you can mold into the type of worker you want, go to the tech schools and talk to the students and the instructors. If you're just looking for a qualified applicant to hit the ground running, then look for the experience, and I think that rings true no matter what kind of work you're in.

I've tried to instill into my daughter many work ethics, but here are three:

1) You're gonna make mistakes every day, just try to learn from them and not repeat them. If you're asked if you know something, and you're not absolutely 100% positive, say "No, could you please run through it one time real quick for me. Thank you". People respect honesty, and they want respect too. Give them both freely.

2) The two best statements in the world when talking to your boss: "You bet" and "No problem". AND MEAN IT!

3) Show up on time. Period. If that means you have to get there a half hour before shift, then DO IT. There's no excuse for being late short of a terrorist plot to shut down the freeway. If you can stand up and know your name, you can go to work, so sick days are for when you're FUBAR, nothing less. Family comes first, but you can't support yourself or your family if you don't have a JOB.

 

I had a Wyo grad here for a time. To talk to him he learned so much and had the eye for things, blah, blah. I gave him a shot. As time went on the limit of his abilities became higher and higher, like he got dumber as time went on. After his last 'talk' to get him on track I gave a time limit simple job with a print. I gave him twice the time I needed to do the job and covered every aspect of it including the most obvious and rudimentary tasks. What I found out was that in 4 times what is normal or twice what I allowed for the gig he still couldn't perform. The fuckin guy didn't even know decimal equivalents. he drills a 1/32 hole for a .137 hole on the print and told me that we didn't have a 1/37th drill bit. Not only this but a score of mini dramas and behind the back disrespect, you know the kind, "...fuck him, I didn't go to school for 3 years for nuthin..." type shit, well yes you did. You don't know decimals, you can't paint, can't work a small amount of filler w/out re-application a dozen times, and I can't believe I tried as hard as I did, invested the effort and shop supplies, all for a loss from this end of things. He wasn't the 1st time I'd been through it but he's damn sure the last. I have guy here, an up-n-coming new talent, brought his own mistakes as his schooling and has picked up everything he's been taught with a failure rate of less than 5%. Just the daily work ethic is exponentially higher than these so called grads who come in knowing everything and ready to teach it to me. My opinion is quite low of Wyotech. If anyone came in here with one of their 'papers' and wanted a job I'd say come back in 10 years if you're still in the craft. By then they might take to learning for real.

Sadly it's not just that Wyo attitude with this generation of wannabes, it's everywhere. I fuck up. I can fix it and know why it fucked up. I don't go pout in the corner about it. I also didn't get a trophy just because I was on the team, and I got the scars and pains as well as the ink and the reputation that's been 30+ years in the making. It's beyond ignorant to disrespect that, it shows a major lack of discipline and self respect as well.

 

i THINK ITS A PROBLEM EVERYWHERE...HEARD ALOT ABOUT THE SAME PROBLEMS. SOME THINK BECAUSE THEY GRADUATE THEY SHOULD START AT THE TOP...NOT IN THIS WORLD...YOUR SWEEPING FLOORS AND ORGANIZING FIRST...i THINK YOU GOTTA LEARN HOW EACH OWNER WANTS HIS SHOP RAN THEN YOU CAN MOVE UP IF YOU SHOW UP....

 

In the late 80's I could not find any local entry level techs for our shop. I got involved in trying to resurrect the Autobody Repair Program at a local trade school. Did the whole 9 yards , had all the local shops involved, 12 person advisory committee , Bi weekly meetings, retraining of the instructors, ect. One of the first items tackled was how many of the graduates from the last 5 years were working in the industry and what happened to all the students that dropped out and why did they leave ?. We were given all the records and tracked down as many as we could . What an eye opener ! Many of those that dropped out did so because they felt they were not getting the proper training from the instructors, the classes were not structured and therefore wasting their time. Boy did the powers in charge get caught with their pants down ! Yet the changes were slow and difficult trying to overcome the issue of tenured teachers and the Board of Ed beurocracy. I have still been monitoring whats going on and have not seen much change.

 

I hate to say this but I think a lot of you are right. I would of been better off working in a shop and taking classes when I could at the local shops that have them. I learned so much in school but I learned way more working with the old guys at my first shop.
And really it is more about the Graduate not the program. I wanted to be a mechanic. thats why even now I go to the local Comm College and learn all I can even though I don't turn wreches professionally any more. thats why I spend so much time on here reading and learning

 

All most every wyotech student that I have hired has had either a drug or alcohol problem and does not have the basic skills to do a simple task in the field they went to school for.

 

in my dealership we get em from linclon tech here in jersey their in their early 20s and in the hole for 28k we treat em as traines they will work with an ' "A" tech. like me for 6 months, they seem to only know the basics, if they seem like they are learning and can be trusted with out screwing up we keep em,their always the top in classes according to the schools but ive also seen the same thing with so called master techs. who dont know any thing.

 

Well, I never went to any school other than hard knocks. I worked for a guy that knew how to paint. learned metal work on my own with some help from videos and the internet.

It is true what the Highlander said about completing a job in a time frame. I have some guys that can do it and some that can't. Always an excuse for why they can not finish it on time.

Tried out a guy the other day from a 4 year resto school. Gave him the work area, tools and the job at hand (simple patch in 34 Ford fender) Asked him to pick his welder and his technique to do the best he could in the least time. A patch that should take two hours to cut out, fit the repair panel, weld in, grind, and metal finish took eight hours. His excuse, hadn't used a tig welder for over a year at school. Wanted to start out at between 15 and 18 an hour. When I told him that I start guys at what they are worth he did't want to ask....

I feel sorry for these young kids that are fed a bill of goods. Some of these guys are not cut out for this and you can't make them work out no matter how bad you want it for them. Some of them are and school or no school they will make it.

A man with a theory is always at the mercy of a man with experience....

I get tired of defending my experience.

Oh yea almost forgot, I have a three day try out for a job. Hire them for three days and you will know exactly what you have.

 

I doubt if there are any shop owners on here are old enough to remember when we in the USA had the Apprenticeship/Journeyman system. They are probably like I am, retired.
It was prevalent in industrial shops before "the trade school fiasco" now in place by higher learning institutions and the US Dept of Education are not shoving down the throats of the public. The fact is, we all know it, that a mechanic can't be taught how to do it in school. It's the old addage, "you can't get there from here". Learning how to weld ain't "higher learning". Learning how to bump a fender ain't "higher learning". One don't need a fuckin' "degree" to grind off high spots. One don't need a drivers license to push a tool box. Shop class in school is the same as if it is in a real shop. One only learns to do what he does. If he is showed pictures of how to grind a high spot, he still dont know how, until he has actually done it. For a school to teach a kid how to, would take twenty years.

I'm 72 and ain't going to start a new shop. I'm going outside and get in my jalopy and start the motor.

But when I ran a shop I didn't expect new hire to know everything, I believed in OJT and the Apprentice/Journeyman concept. Schools are for book learnin' and that's all.

But, you younger guys can do yourself and your employees a favor by figuring out how to evaluate, train, and keep new hire long enough to teach them your way. Expecting a new hire(on the employer's part) to know how to do it all is just as hair-brained as that kid(that wants a job) expecting a school to teach him a trade.
Anybody that hired a wyotech grad and is happy with his work would have been happy with the kids work if they had hired him right out of the fifth grade.

The employer should be the first link in the training cycle, as Dolmetsch;3617606 pointed out(the apprenticeship system) in his post on page one of this thread. Of course it can't be followed to the letter, because the public has already fallen for the bullshit that schools can train tradesmen. But one can adopt the theory, the objective, of getting the job done in spite of what everybody else does.

I know only one shop, of dozens here in my neck of the woods, where the owner is the boss and he can go out on the floor and do any job there, and is willing to take a new kid and show him how to do something. The rest all say "do it, and do it right, and if you can't do it as fast as I can then you are an idiot". That is not leadership. The lack of leadership at the shop owner level in industry is just as much of a problem as the lack of skill of new hire. Of course a shop owner don't have to be a good leader. I know of two, where the guys hate to teach anybody anything. They are very seccessful, they are one-man shops, and don't have employees. They recognize their limitations...........

That guy that takes the time to train his employees has all of the business he can handle and will be in business when a lot of the others are gone. He loves his work, he respects his employees. He has the guts to tell a new hire he ain't hacking it when that happens and don't string him along. The smart ones will recognize his insight and respect him in return.

 

Ok I do agree with your post but as a shop owner what do you pay someone that you have to teach them what you hire them for? If they are willing to spend 20 to 30 K for the school to teach them the crap they do and we all agree its not worth the money, why and what should the shop owner (that gets this guy that thinks he's worth 18 dollars an hour) have to pay them to bring them anywhere near to were they think they are let alone should be when they walk though the door.

 

It would be a cold day in hell before I hired anybody that expected to get journeyman pay for entry level work. I would hope to talk to that young man before he went to wyotech, because I would not want somebody that really believed the shit they tell them.

I would not hire one of them based on the fact that they went to school. If I interviewed a person that had that on their resume, I hope I wouldn't let that have a negative influence me, but it would carry no weight whatsoever. A good interview does not even include what's on a resume. A good interview (in the mechanical trades) delves into knowledge, a result of the questions that the company wants a person to KNOW. Then the rest of the process is to attempt to determine ATTITUDE, dexterity, (physical and mental) and amptitude. Therefore, the interviewer/s must have people skills, and know more about the job than anybody else. Successful businesses don't send a lightweight to do the interviewing for them.

You don't hire people for a job that they aren't qualified for. You evaluate them. Two or three days "temporary, part time" status. Then you offer tham a job depending on their demonstrated attitude and motor skills. You offer them minimum wage with the understanding if they are up to your expectations they will get a raise.

You don't even give them the three days unless they have convinced you they are willing to learn and can walk and chew gum at the same time. An interview is not about skills already learned, its about ability to communicate and a perception that the applicant is not too much in love with hisself.

 

The biggest key is to learn how to interview/evaluate applicants. It's a learning experience for the supervisor too. It took me twenty five years of working, then another ten running different shops before I know what I know. You can't expect to get it all right , in time you will have a system that works. If running a business was easy everybody would be doing it.

 

When I first got out of the Air Force, in 1976, an Aircraft mechanic, I applied for a job at a shop at Greeley Airport that did motor overhauls and major repairs. With all of my experience, Dick Snyder, the Owner/CEO/and chief bottle washer interviewed me. He didn't even want to tell me how much he was offering me, I guess he was kind of reluctant to, so he wrote it down on a little slip of paper, and said something like this: "Be here at six on Monday with your tool box. "I'll give you a week, pay you this"(handing me the slip of paper, shook my hand and said) "good luck".
($3.50 an hour to start. I think fed minum then was $2-something? In six months I was up to $9.50. Most of the new hire rolled their tool box out the door on Wednesday right after lunch break.)


When I showed up, there was a work bench in the corner with an 0-320 Lycoming on a stand. Mr Snyder said, "we are going to overhaul this motor". He said "we".

When we went to test fly that motor, I knew what Mr Dick Snyder meant when he said "WE".

 

I graduated Wyotech in the fall of 2000 in their collision/refinishing program. I think it would be an okay school if you had never seen or touched an automobile in your life. I think they were more worried about running it like a military school, than making sure everyone knew what they were doing. By the time you figured out what was going on there was no turning back. The recruiters were full of shit, and the further you lived from the school the bigger the pile of bullshit you got. But, it's a business and they make their money that's for sure. They convince everbody that when you leave there, you are ready to start your career. I knew better, and I fucked alot of shit up re-teaching myself. I wish it was like Walmart, I would take my diploma and get my money back 'cause it's defective.

 

I agree CRASHANDBURNS; Yes. Yes. I hope I'm not over-posting, but I have strong feelings about the whole thing. Earlier in the thread, I suggested that a kid that want's to work in this field, convince dad or mom (if they are involved with the decision), borrow that 20k and buy some tools, all of the welders, OA, STICK, MIG, & TIG, practice up and go get an entry level job at a shop. Be a hell of a lot better off in the long run.

As far as a student in any school having any imput whatsoever, I think the more the schools 'listen' to their concerns, the more the real important things get sidetracked. The curriculum should have SPECIFIC PERFORMANCE OBJECTIVES, posted and advertised. Then if the studen can't do them he don't graduate, pure and simple. Then the employer would know what to expect from a new hire that came from a school. But guess what? The schools ain't going to do that because then they would be accountable. One thing they ain't ever going to do is be accountable......................

 

29nash,
Thank you for your very truthful input. I like the way older guys tell us young guys how it should be done. This country was built on the backs of those hard nose guys like you. Thank you Mr. 29nash

Now for you shop owners, the only way you are going to get someone worth their salt is start them before they think they know it all. I sit on an apprenticeship committee for electricians. We take people with little or no experience in the trade and train them for 5 years, after which the ones who finish should be able to wire up everything from a house to a nuclear power plant. All of this cannot be done without the help of on the job training from our journeyman and the promise of a wage and benefits package that can sustain a decent lifestyle.
If you take the time to train a kid, with a future they can see, they will do you a good job. We all know times are changing, but with the down turn in the economy, most people will do whatever it takes to learn a trade and be able to support a family with an honest wage.
I would suggest looking into a co-op program from a technical high school and find out if they have a students available in auto mechanics. This is how i recruit some of the apprentices for our program. They can be had part time for minimum wage and if they dont work out you are out little money. Of course you cant expect much, but at least you can see work ethic. Finding someone with work ethic is more than half the battle. As they work through high school, you can groom them as you see fit and when they finish they wil be ready for full employment and you know where they are in their skills.
Just my .02 worth, but i'm only 35 and have a lot of years to work. The future work force is what's going to pay for my retirement, so I give a shit about the future of my trade and all trades.
vintagedrags

 

Years ago I had a student that was okay in school.... also a twenty something. He went to a vintage shop and was assigned to do a profile of a sheet metal part on a Cam Am car - but first make it out of plywood to prove your ability. He cried threw down the part and quit too fast to be fired. The shop owner still asks what he had done to the poor kid and feels guilty. Amazing that a self entitled spoiled brat wants to start at the top. get this - later the guy was busted hopping the fence at Marine World Africa USA and smacking a camel on the ass with his shoe. Good job on the dare but dumb enough to get caught.
Bottom line : There are lot of diamonds in the rough you have to keep digging.

 

Vintagedrags; Your explaination of "how you do it" points out (what's going on that is good) all around us. The whole world ain't goin' to hell in a hand basket!

Shop Owners, and their subordinate "lead mechanics", can adopt OJT (apprenticeship), programs that fit their operation. They can't afford not to.

There's an old saw about the benefits of OJT. If you show them pictures, then tell 'em what you gonna tell 'em. Then tell 'em. Then tell 'em what you tol' 'em, they still can't do it. But if you Show 'em, have 'em do it, then they can. OJT.