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Technical Introduction/1950 Dodge HESITATION

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by moparbrothers, Jul 18, 2019.

  1. moparbrothers
    Joined: Oct 9, 2017
    Posts: 6

    moparbrothers

    Hello,

    This is my first post so let me introduce myself, ever since I was 6 I always loved going to car shows and walking up to old cars and remembering how big they were and how much they interested me, fast forward to my freshman year of high school I was known as the “master mechanic” in town, My brother and I would work on antique tractors, lawn mowers, boats, and old bicycles. We found out tinkering on things was more amusing then having our heads looking down at cell phones. That summer I finally took matters into my own hands and bought a barn find 1950 Dodge Meadowbrook. Within a week i had it driving down the road. And just this winter with the help of a family member had the 230 flathead rebuilt by a professional Mopar engine rebuilder. This car is a daily driver and is driven to school regularly. I am now 17 and have many old vehicles...
    ——-ISSUE——-
    The car has had a complete overhaul, and I have kept everything stock.
    All the old internals were replaced with new ones. And the engine runs great When it is cold. But when it gets hot it sputters and hesitates as soon as I hit the pedal. After idle. On high rpms it runs fine. It hesitates bad when you slowly start to give it gas. As well as when you leave it at lower rpms it sputters like crazy. It never does this when it is cold.

    -I’ve rebuilt the carb last year, new acc pump gaskets, float, needles, etc.
    -timing was adjusted/corrected by a local flathead enthusiast,
    -new 6v points, condenser, coil, wires, plugs.
    -still have stock oil bath cleaner
    -rebuilt starter, generator and NOS regulator still works great.
    -Removed vacuum advance line and still runs the same.
    -there is an adjusting screw in the acc pump I’ve tried adjusting it but can’t seem to get correct as sometime it helps the hesitation cause.
    -when I remove the oil bath it seems to get better but still has some hesitation. I would like to keep it as stock as possible.

    Any help would be appreciated.

    Sorry for the long message, and I hope this is the right place to put this in.

    Here are some pictures of my adventure. 6ED4811F-C181-47B2-A216-E3E84D163BB8.jpeg 6EEB2B42-49AD-49A4-8A05-D1564D0F040B.jpeg I drove the car without the motor overhauled for 2 years
    67EAA06B-9F9C-49BB-B3AF-5157292B5945.jpeg The flathead back from the rebuilder
    9160819B-4871-421C-B552-351070BC33BC.jpeg

    The engine in the car present day


    Hope you all are staying cool, very hot here in the Midwest.

    Noah
     
    VANDENPLAS, pumpman, ffr1222k and 8 others like this.
  2. SS327
    Joined: Sep 11, 2017
    Posts: 132

    SS327

    Why did you have the engine rebuilt? When you rebuilt the carb did you use a new kit to hold up to the current gopher piss they try to pass off as gasoline? Or did you use a N.O.S. old kit?

    Denny
     
  3. moparbrothers
    Joined: Oct 9, 2017
    Posts: 6

    moparbrothers

    The motor began to leak, and there was low compression in 4 cylinders. When I rebuilt the carb i used the kit from Mikes carb parts and it was the N.O.S kit.
     
  4. bangerbob
    Joined: Jul 2, 2014
    Posts: 122

    bangerbob

    Check the "butter fly throttle shaft" for wear and looseness. There should be no play in the shaft. When the throttle is opened the mixture gets "lean" and causes at hesitation or stuble. Had the same problem on my hotrod tapatalk_jpeg_1550177667900.jpg

    Sent from my SM-J337P using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
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  5. Petejoe
    Joined: Nov 27, 2002
    Posts: 9,991

    Petejoe
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Zoar, Ohio

    Getting good condensers for distributors nowadays is very hard. This could very well be a condenser issue.
    Replace it.
    Reinstall your vacuum advance hookup, should never be unhooked.
    Verify your advance is working. Those distributed diaphragms get old and dry out. Check for proper movement of the vacuum assembly at the distributor.
     
  6. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,174

    F&J
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I had similar issues with a customers 48 Ply woodie. Other shops had failed to find the problem. It felt way too lean to me, so I used the hand choke a bit and it ran mint.

    I did some web searches and found out Plymouth offered "economy" jetting as an option to save gas. I ended up reaming the main jet with tip cleaners for a cutting torch. It took two tries, starting with a very slight reaming which got it 80% better, then a bit more made it like new.

    It could be that with an re-bored motor, you need to re-jet to compensate for the compression gains from bigger pistons. They might have resurfaced the head as well, which raised it more.

    If it has automatic choke rather than a hand choke, try wiring the choke very slightly closed for a road test. This should tell if it needs more jet size.
    .
     
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  7. Terrible80
    Joined: Oct 1, 2010
    Posts: 694

    Terrible80
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Playing with accelerator pump seems to help. Does it give a smooth squirt throughout the travel? Check for vacumn leaks as suggested above.

    Sent from my LG-TP450 using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
  8. Terrible80
    Joined: Oct 1, 2010
    Posts: 694

    Terrible80
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

  9. moparbrothers
    Joined: Oct 9, 2017
    Posts: 6

    moparbrothers

    8B84DC6E-2122-4E29-B8B8-D63D77B87CFD.jpeg Thank you guys I will look into all your suggestions
    Yes, here is the screw that it seems to help, I will order a new condenser as well as try to ream the jets. Does my acc pump look correct? Anybody tried adjusting the screw on the bottom?
     
  10. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 42,958

    squirrel
    Member

    You can easily check the accelerator pump operation. Remove the air cleaner, look down in the hole, actuate the throttle linkage. You should see a steady squirt of fuel, for a second or two, from the pump squirter.
     
  11. daliant
    Joined: Nov 25, 2009
    Posts: 660

    daliant
    Member

    I would highly suspect ignition parts in this case, just because they are "new" doesn't mean they are good.
    While hot and running poor, pull the coil wire out of the distributor and check for a good hot blue spark that jumps about a half inch, an orange spark is a weak spark and will be more than likely the cause of your poor performance. Sometimes a coil will give good performance while cool and progressively fall off as it gets hot.
    If you have a good powerful zap coming from the coil wire check one of the wires at one of the plugs, rule out the ignition system first, If good there then suspect fuel delivery and or a vacuum leak.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2019
  12. 0NE BAD 51 MERC
    Joined: Nov 12, 2010
    Posts: 947

    0NE BAD 51 MERC
    Member

    Make sure you have a ground strap from the motor to the frame. Learned many years ago that points distributers , especially old mopars want a good ground. Otherwise the condenser seems to build up a static charge and grounds out the points . Cold they run fine but as they heat up they short out. Let everything cool down and she runs good again. Learned that from an old mechanic at the Dodge dealership in the 70's when I was having the same issue with my off topic 70 Super Bee. Broken ground strap, After a tune up , fuel pump and a carb rebuild on a car that only had 50,000 miles and was 6 years old. A 100.00 dollars in 1976 money for a $2.00 ground strap. Larry
     
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  13. moparbrothers
    Joined: Oct 9, 2017
    Posts: 6

    moparbrothers

    Thanks. Will look into your options, I reamed the main jet and it helped, but will look into spark next. Thank you all for your input you really help a young guy like me know what he is dealing with and how to solve a problem. And to pass it on to car/hot rot enthusiasts that will hopefully be younger than me.
     
  14. sdluck
    Joined: Sep 19, 2006
    Posts: 2,150

    sdluck
    Member

    Most of these older engine the vacuum advance turns the whole dist so see if you vacuum advance moves a breaker plate or moves the hole dist

    Sent from my SM-J737T using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
  15. Truck64
    Joined: Oct 18, 2015
    Posts: 3,283

    Truck64
    Member
    from Ioway

    Careful with reaming jets, the problem now is it may well be running too rich at cruise. Spark plugs will show this. If they show fouling with today's gasoline the air fuel ratio is way off, ignition is defective, maybe both.

    The thing with carburetors is "garbage in, garbage out", if the fuel pump isn't supplying the correct pressure within a narrow range adjusting the float height can't compensate. When rebuilding a carb they will specify a float height, but it needs to be checked after installation. The carburetor is calibrated to maintain a very specific fuel height at all times under all conditions in the bowl. So the rule in carburetor tuning is first checking the fuel pump. Use your mechanic's vacuum gauge (you either already have one, or you want one, nod your head "yes"....) and make sure it is within spec. Then check to see that fuel height maintained in the carb bowl is right on.

    The ignition condenser problem is well known, it's an important part. The foreign made el-cheapos are no good at all, even brand new.
     
  16. moparbrothers
    Joined: Oct 9, 2017
    Posts: 6

    moparbrothers

    Will check plugs after a cruise. Just drove 20 miles 55 mph with the engine running like a brand new clock at high speed. Is there a difference between 6v and 12v condensers? This has brought question in me for quite some time if there is a difference. Thanks
     
  17. SS327
    Joined: Sep 11, 2017
    Posts: 132

    SS327

    The reason I asked if it was a N.O.S. kit is because the same engine is used in M37 dodge military trucks and a lot of guys are having trouble with rebuilding a carb only to have to rebuild it again 6 months later because the Gopher Piss ate all the rubber parts. The same goes for fuel pumps. Find a company that makes kits that are compatible with todays fuel.
    Please do not ream the jets it just screws up the fuel flow through them. If you have to get a set of micro drill bits through Amazon or a hobby store and go up one size at a time.

    Denny
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2019
  18. carbking
    Joined: Dec 20, 2008
    Posts: 2,500

    carbking
    Member

    Giving issues when hot is probably either:

    (1) Ignition components failing with heat (specifically the condenser or the coil)
    (2) Carburetor too lean

    My guess would be 90 percent probability on ignition; however

    Carter used velumoid for gasket material in 1950. Velumoid has a very high sulphur content, but more importantly, it was cut "wet". After a period of time, velumoid will shrink. In a new old stock Carter kit, the large (airhorn to bowl, and bowl to throttle body) gaskets should NOT be used. Other parts in a new old stock genuine Carter kit should be OK. If the new old stock kit was not Carter or Standard Hygrade, the accelerator pump also should not be used.

    No offense meant, but reaming the jets is a big mistake!

    If the carburetor is correct for the engine (and Dr. Goodpliers, the evil twin of Mr. Goodwrench has not been working on the carburetor) the jets will be correct (or possibly too RICH) for the engine. Gasoline flowing through a jet erodes (makes it larger) the jet just like the Missouri River just eroded a bunch of levies in central Missouri. Jets, over time, get larger and need to be replaced because they are too rich, not too lean.

    Stay with it, and keep asking questions. You WILL figure it out.

    And nice JD in the background. All real tractors are painted green and yellow! ;)

    Jon
     
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  19. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,174

    F&J
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    No offence Jon..... but on the 48 Ply woodie I fixed, that other shops failed on, the carb was an old NORS rebuild with the "gas miser" jet size. I knew it was lean on the main, as it came alive with partial hand choke on the road.

    Please don't put every situation into a blanket answer like "mistake to ream the jet", because that is 100% wrong on the car that I repaired properly. The owner was the wife of the guy who brought me the car. When he picked it up, he was questioning my statement that I KNOW it's perfect now. He lives 45 minutes away, and I get a call back in 45 minutes. He actually stopped halfway home so the wife who was following him, could drive it the rest of the way home to see how nice it finally ran. They had spent tons of money in 4 years trying to get this fixed, and they could not believe I found the issue within minutes.

    sorry for the rant, but it was something i needed to say.
     
  20. moparbrothers
    Joined: Oct 9, 2017
    Posts: 6

    moparbrothers

    Thank you all, I’ve ruled out the vacuum advance. It works as it should and holds vacuum, when I reamed the jets I did use my micro drill bits and only did the next size it didn’t seem to shave off much, but I could be wrong. So far I’ve had no problem with fouling or starting. And have noticed a better take off from a stop. If it is the coil or condenser getting hot would I use a resistor? I’ve tried installing before one and the spark is so weak it will not start. The car has never had one before, so I removed it. The coil is a 6v O’Reilly’s coil and the condenser is a 6v condenser from the Brillman co. Both are about a year old. I’ve tried replacing the old O’ Reilly’s coil (the one I purchased when I first got my car running before it was overhauled).) with a new O’ Reilly’s coil with no luck, this would of been a year ago, do these ignition systems call for a ballast resistor? Any recommendations on a good coil and condenser brand? Is there still a possibility I need a ballast resistor?

    Thanks again for your help
     
  21. carbking
    Joined: Dec 20, 2008
    Posts: 2,500

    carbking
    Member

    F & J - no offense taken, we all learn when differences in opinion are respectfully shared.

    However, uncertain as to where you are getting your information on a "gas miser" jet. I did not remember Carter using this terminology. So, I pulled the Carter prints to check.

    The 1948 Plymouth used the Carter type BBR-1 model D6G1. Carter listed a standard jet (for sea level to 4000 feet), a one-size lean jet (for altitudes of 4001~6000 feet, and a two-size lean jet (for altitudes above 6000 feet). Jetting should be correct for the altitude of the residence of the vehicle. No listing for a "gas miser" jet. Perhaps Plymouth sold an altitude carb with the gas miser designation, but Carter was unaware of it

    There was also a Carter type BBR-1 model B6W1 released for the 1942 Plymouth taxi, which was a totally different carburetor with significantly different idle and main jets, idle and main air bleeds, idle restrictor and idle bypass. Carter showed this carb as not being used after WWII, so, at least according to the Carter literature, not appropriate for the 1948 Plymouth.

    Carter also shows a carburetor meant ONLY for export, and I did not pull the microfilm for this one so do not know the calibrations, but this model would not be correct for a domestic model.

    So again, no offense meant, but if the carburetor is correct for the car, then reaming jets is a big mistake. If the carburetor is incorrect for the car (and that includes improper jetting), then obviously all necessary modifications to make the carburetor correct should be accomplished.

    And for the record, the way to fix the carburetor on a 1946 to 1948 Plymouth is to replace the BBR-1 with the "strike" limited production 1947 Chevrolet Carter W-1 574s; just as Carter and Plymouth did in 1947 when the plant producing the BBR-1 carburetors for Carter went on strike. Significantly more power, about 25 percent increased fuel economy, and much higher reliability. There is a great story here. If you wish to learn the full story, please call. I don't type as well as I once did. A clean BBR-1 always makes a nice door stop ;)

    EDIT: if possible, would like to have a photocopy of the documentation showing the gas miser jet for my files. Here is a link to my website showing the limited production 574s:

    http://www.thecarburetorshop.com/Carter_574_Plymouth.pdf

    Jon.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2019
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  22. carbking
    Joined: Dec 20, 2008
    Posts: 2,500

    carbking
    Member

    One comment about rebuilding the BBR-1. Many enthusiasts, and even some of the less-expensive so-called professionals, ignore the main vent tube. If the main vent tube is not properly sealed, then an internal air leak will result, and the carburetor even with correct jetting would be lean. Oversize jets would be a band-aid in this case, and could certainly cause an engine to run better. Of course, I would suggest correctly sealing the main vent tube.

    The following is a link to the factory service literature (published with authority from Carter) on my website:

    http://www.thecarburetorshop.com/Service_Carter_BB_downdraft_late.pdf

    Take a look at instruction number 36.

    Jon.
     
  23. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,174

    F&J
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    It's been maybe 6-7 years, but I found the info on the web as related to Plymouth Sales Brochure or Plymouth Salesmen's Info. As I recall, the jetting was offered for fuel economy only, and not mentioning altitudes or Export cars. I will try to find time to research it at some point.

    I do not recall the carb model name or number, but I do know where the owners husband bought the NORS reman carb.... at a NOS/NORS parts warehouse in Palmer, Massachusetts. I do recall the husband said that the carb "top" was different than the original 48 carb, so one shop that installed it onto the car, swapped the original top onto the NORS reman carb.

    That car ran flawlessly at all speeds after I did the jet mods. Prior to that, the car would run out of power on the hills, very unresponsive to pushing on the pedal on even slight hills, and overall it felt like the timing was severely retarded.
     
  24. carbking
    Joined: Dec 20, 2008
    Posts: 2,500

    carbking
    Member

    The top swap might be a clue. The 1942 taxi carb had a different top than the 1948 passenger carb.

    Jon.
     
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  25. Truck64
    Joined: Oct 18, 2015
    Posts: 3,283

    Truck64
    Member
    from Ioway

    Post a clear, close-up pic of a spark plug or two, and get an idea of how the fuel mixture is running. Too rich or too lean, either can cause the symptoms you describe. If it runs better cold than hot, that points to excessive fuel or defective ignition or maybe both. It is important that there is a good fat hot spark, especially under load.
     
  26. ol-nobull
    Joined: Oct 16, 2013
    Posts: 1,203

    ol-nobull
    Member

    IMG_2604.jpg Hi. Following closely on this as I have a 50 Plymouth Deluxe. You say you have the 230 engine. All info I have is the Plymouth and Dodge had the 218 engine with 23" head and Desoto & Chrysler had the 230 engine with the 25" head. That 2" difference makes it not a drop in fit. So head length is a quick verifier on this. If you do actually have the 217 and are buying parts for a 230 you may be getting mis matched parts on the carb & ignition stuff. I have not verified whether they are the same or not.
    It has been just a few months since we completed a complete overhaul on the engine and all is stock except it is bored 0.030".
    Two sources I used on the parts were www.robertsmotorparts.com and www.kanter.com . Both have online stores and both offer paper catalogs. They specialize in parts for these cars.
    Photo is when I purchased it last year in Seabrook, texas just down the road a couple of miles from NASA.
    Good luck with your build and keep us posted on the outcome of your problem.
    Jimmie
     

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