Who said he didn't first? When the guy is sending me a vacuum diagram, I'm assuming he has already talked to a shop. I've left two messages with the gentleman. No return call yet.
Actually there is a difference between profit and rape. its your can of worms and you should have left it alone. I had a house fire with a policy that I had read and even my attorney read. It was a replacement cost policy, I mostly had smoke damage and a furnace that was destroyed. The adjuster came out and offered me wholesale on the furnace. he said that I was in the heating and cooling business and could install it myself and buy a furnace wholesale. he knew that because when I applied for the policy one of the questions was what I did for a living. He said that there was no smoke damage because I smoke. I contacted the state insurance commision, who suggested that I retain an attorney. They did take my report and sent a copy of it to the insurance company who then decided to play hard ball. No action was taken against the insurance company by the way. I retained an attorney, who said that it would be easy to fix the problem. he advised me not to install a furnace in my house but to hire someone to install a furnace in my house. That was my plan from the start but I wasn't planning to do it with my own money, that is what I pay insurance premiums for. Anyway they send this fella out that is supposed to be an electrical engineer to check some things out. He spent his time putting scotch tape on my walls which he sent to the lab to have tested for smoke damage. The man said while he was there that my house stunk and I should get it cleaned up. I asked him what it smelled like he said smells like a fire in here. he didn't put that in his report although I mentioned that he should. This was told to the attorney who said he will just deny it in court and you can't prove that he said it. Long story short, the insurance company said that there was no fire marshals report so there was no fire. That held up in court even though we did have the report from the fire truck that came out. When the firemarshals office was contacted they said that they only do reports on suspicious fires. Catch 22 I suppose, if it is a suspicious fire there is a fire marshals report but maybe you are the one that set if and if there is no firmarshal's report there is no fire. There is a lot of difference between profit and rape, you should have left it alone. Your can of worms not mine. Oh yea it was determined that I could purchase a furnace wholesale because I was in the heating and cooling business and install it myself. My original questions were just questions by the way. I found the answers to be adequate
In the case of the vacume locks not working, I have had appraisers state that, "if I wanted to disasemble the car in order to find out the actual fault, and it was indeed a result of a collision, they would pay. If I could not prove that it was a result of the collision, they would not pay for the damage, nor the labor involved in the disasembly."
What if someone dumped acid down the glass and it ate up the vacumm lines? Then we would have to get CSI in to take samples and look for finger prints, security footage and DNA as well as the specific signature of the acid and see who had purchased that type of acide with that specific signature, or if it had been stolen they would have to find out if the theif was ever aprehended and so on and so forth. I don't doubt that the car will not be paid by the insurance company. I hate that swifster has to be the one to inform them but that is how he makes his living. Maybe it nwill be all happy happy joy joy when he gets there and one of their good friends will already have pointed out that they don't have a maintenance clause in their policy and they will give him milk and cookies for his trouble. Not likkely though. There are things that one should expect to get compensated for and it should be painless. There are other things that are claimed because people just don't know any better.
I can see the shop owner right here... My roll in this equation is as an independent, state licensed appraiser in the State of Florida. Every insurance company has guidelines. NO ONE has ever told me how to repair a car (more than once). Hagerty and Grundy have never said to me, 'Your estimate is too high, trim the estimate'. As for my coming to a conclusion before hand, I'm familiar with the car. I went to trade school to be a technician at Chrysler owned Motech back in the early 80's. I understand mechanical principles. Could I make a living at it anymore? Nope, I'm not fast enough. Besides, why would I want to work in a garage where the temps reach over 100*. I've been in the insurance business handling claims since 1985. I spent 10 years with AAA Michigan. They had three rules; 1) Don't screw the customer 2) Don't screw the shop 3) Don't screw the company. I have followed those three rules and have found they serve my well. I have a pretty good idea what is in the policy and what is not. The only company that tried playing 'Monday Morning Quarterback' has been American Modern. When some guy in Columbus wants to write estimates based of pictures, then they don't need me. When they would rather stuff a car full of bondo rather than replace the panel over a $25 savings, I don't really need their business. And Heacock was worried about how Infiniti handled claims...HA! I get my assignments from the insurance company adjuster. The difference between an appraiser and an adjuster? An adjuster gets to write checks. I come out at the request of the insurance company. While I do look after their insterests, I do look out for the insured's as well. I explain the process and what is involved. If there are additional repairs, I look at those. I've also gone to bat for the insured when the shop has pulled some stupid crap (like poorly sectioning quarter panels on Rolls Royces). "errors and omissions n. short-hand for malpractice insurance which gives physicians, attorneys, architects, accountants and other professionals coverage for claims by patients and clients for alleged professional errors and omissions which amount to negligence." I have never carried this insurance. Do you know why? Two people will be at fault if something happens to a car I looked at. 1) The insurance company, because I follow their guidelines. And in the end, when I think something should be denied, it is discussed with the adjuster and noted in MY file. 2) The repair shop, because it is their responsibility to fix the car in a safe manor. I don't fix the car. The shop does. If the shop has a problem, they have my number. If I see a problem, I advised the insured/customer and advise them of what I see. It could be a VIN issue and it could be a safety issue (like four cracked tires from age, and a rag joint thats falling apart). All insurance policies have 'ins-and-outs'. It doesn't matter if it's homeowners or car policies. There ARE provisions that benefit the owner and things that do benefit the insurance company. There is no doubt about that, but this is far more true in homeowners. You want a real nightmare? Try reading your homeowners policy. The exclusions are there to be seen. Different companies have different guidelines. These guidelines are not in the policy. These guideline include what they allow for blending, color match, how air conditioning service is paid for, etc. It also includes what that company with pay per flat rate hour to repair a vehicle. It will also state that they do not pay whatever the shop wants just because the shop wants it. "It took us an hour to R&I the tail lamp". If that's true, get in another line of business. The big joke is the last paragraph. That the insurance company should write the shop a blank check. And make no mistake, that is what Mr Shop Owner is implying. While it is try that the contract to repair the vehicle is between the shop and the insured, nowhere is it stated that the insurance company has to pay this if they disagree. The choice of shop is yours; chose wisely so you don't pull money out of your pocket. Insurance companies owe 'reasonable & customary'. This means fair. It doesn't mean a restoration shop can bill at his own hour and think I will pay for it. I warn my customers that using such shops can cause money to dribble out of their pockets. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. Those of use in the business do not expect you to take your car to the local Chevy dealer to have your '60 Corvette fixed, though I do know a couple dealers who could do a fine job with it. I do not use the same hourly rate that the shop fixing a daily driver would get (for the record, here in FL it's $42). I also pay higher amounts for paint & materials than what the local shop may get. But I'm not paying $100 an hour either. And don't expect me to pay on your hour if you won't open your books to me to show me what you are charging for (these shops get ALL upset when you ask them to). The policy flat out says that the insurance company does not owe you to restore your car. It is not a restoration policy. It is a repair policy. I will say that I write my estimate to put the car in the same position it was in prior to the loss. This varies on every car. Some cars get 'show' chrome and others go to the local replater. Some cars I'll hunt the world for an NOS part and others get stuff from the boneyard. It depends on the car. Did that met with your approval?
I have yet to see fire by enemies here in the states. As for the nuclear fallout, I couldn't tell you what it looks like and I don't carry a geiger counter. Insurance companies cover loss by fire and contaiminated paint. They would have a long ways to go to deny losses based on this. Anyone have a claim denied in PA because of Three Mile Island?
You went thru the other company. This is why you insure your own vehicle. Your company pays and goes after the other. If Progressive insured the other vehicle, why do they have loyalty to you? HOMEOWNERS DOES NOT COVER VEHICLES OR THEIR PARTS!!! I can not stress this enough. It's written on there plain as day. But it's the insurance company's fault. Read your policy! This is hard to comment on. I don't know their basis for settlement. I don't know what you did to the bike. I've handled many total losses and I've used receipts to adjust values as well. But I don't add for a brake job. I don't add for tune ups. I don't add for coolant flushes. These are maintenance items. I'll add for long term items like shocks, exhaust, a replacement engine, etc. I do not add for labor. Labor adds nothing to the value of the car/bike. If the vehicle was painted, this is adjusted for in the condition. Again, not bknowing the basis, I can't really comment on this.
You work for the insurance company, they pay you. Make too many "appraisals" in the wrong direction, they won't be hiring you in the future. Deny enough claims (a certain percentage in numbers or dollars), and they'll keep coming back to you. Be happy you're not here in New England where the usual shop rate for ordinary repairs is $90 - $120 per hour....
Thanks, Swiftster, for teaching us a little about an annoying, but necessary part of traditional rods & customs. Administrators, how 'bout adding this thread to the Tech Archive?
This is true. It is the insured's responsibility to prove his loss, not the insurance company's. If you get into a collision, the damage speaks for itself. And most damage does. With other stuff, my definition is simple; Bent, Broken or Busted. Show me the damage. If you disassembly the car to prove something is part of the loss, and it is indead damaged, I will gladly cover that loss. And if it's not, why should the insurance company pay for a fishing expedition. An example, a company insured a 2005 Ford GT. The car had 858HP. The guy was taking the car out to Texas Speedway and has run 251MPH. He hit a culvert and did $141K worth of damages to it. He wanted EVERYTHING replaced. Shocks, uprights, control arms, etc., and if not replaced, he wanted everything magnafluxed for cracks. This wasn't happening. I did offer to replace anything he found cracked. I'm not worried about him doing 251MPH. I can't check for stuff at those speeds. The shop can't check for stuff at those speeds. 80 to 90 is the limit I'll worry about. And on a NASCAR race track, he's on his own anyways. If there is acid on the glass, it's covered. And it would also likely have damaged the paint and weatherstrip. All covered. With a smile. But after checking phones numbers and talking with the adjuster, he had been to a shop who told him they would have to 'drill' into the door. Heading out in a few minutes. I'll let you know what I find.
The powers to be are saying that wild fire set by enemies of the state are a real and viable threat. Dirty bombs have been considered to be a real threat for quite awhile. So I am just guessing that radio active contamination is a real possibility. Even if you don't carry a geiger counter. I doubt that my auto insurance is liable. I doubt that anyone drpiied acid down the glass, I hope you don't have to be the bearer of bad news, without the intervention of an X files type of an event you are probably going to have to say it is a maintenence problem. Why would the mechanic have to cut a hole in the door? Is that what he is going to have to do to repair it?
The 'loyality' to me was they were responsible, they assumed the risk to inusre that driver and choose to play the game. Why would I want to go through my company to go through thier company - that just cost everyone too much $$ but thats the game isnt it. My point was the insurence company, they people who took the risk to insure the other driver lost 4 times what I was willing to accept out of pure arrogance. My point about a car under construction is relevant - how are car parts any different then any other hobby 'parts'? And NO, IT WAS NOT SPELLED OUT IN THE 'CONTRACT'. Talk all you want about the contract - inusreance companies get ripped off and they approach every client like they are tryiong to rip them off. So, unless you get a lawyer you dont get protected. Thatss the reason they settle out so often because they avoid paying the value of the 'contract' but it cost more to go to court - STOP PLAYING THE GAME with honest folks - do real investigating and use professional opinion and all of our premiums would drop.
I write my estimates fair. Both Hagerty and Grundy have said to be fair. I deal with other companies too. They tell me be fair. The difference between me and others? I write a complete estimate. I treat the customers like people. I won't deny stuff to hit a 'magic' number. I go by the contract. It's far easier for me to say 'yes' than 'no'. I don't fix total losses (and I've seen this done). I've worked in all three areas of repair (service, body shop and insurance). If I don't know the answer to something, I find someone who does know the answer. I had to look at a 2005 Mercedes-Benz SLR McLaren a few weeks back. It had a small fire in the back of the car. The entire body shell is made from carbonfiber. They typically made less than 500 a year world-wide. The retail on this car was $425,000. Because the fire was breifly hot enough for resin to pool on the trunk floor, I needed to know if there was no other damage, could the panel be saved? I had to have called a dozen people before I got ahold of the Mercedes-Benz Southeast Regional Center in Jacksonville. THEY had to do some searching and then advised me that this $3500 panel needed to be replaced. That's what's going on. I like to sleep at night...
With the earthquake in Japan, I would bet there are more than a couple cars covered in nuclear contaimination. I'm sure there was one or two in PA. If I deny something, my standard is...Can I prove it in a court of law? My answer to you now, is no I can't. So I'd cover it.
swifster You are actually in a good position. You get paid by the insurance company but you are not an employee. Your paycheck or promotion is not dependent on what you find or decide in a given situation. You are not in a position of bing liable either, are you? You just report what you see correct? I think that there are companies out there that are good to work with, I have not had the good fortune to deal with any of them, but I think they are our there. I don't think that anyone on this side of the pacific was able to make a claim, the Govt said that we did not get significant amounts of radiation from Japan. I don't recall what happened with 3 mile island. I think like with any big disaster there was some controversy but I just don't recall. I think for some of us insurance companies are like banks, we don't care for them but we still have to deal with them. They are gambling, I pay them and they are hoping that I don't make a claim. I have had such bad fortune with them that it is not likely that I am going to bother making a claim. The reason I am making a claim is enough grief for me any more.
I'm not arguing that Progressive didn't screw the pooch. I always looked at a claimant's vehicle as an opportunity to give a sales pitch. If I treat you fair, wouldn't you at least look for a quote from the company I'm working for? I had a liability claim on Toyota Highlander. It was a Hagerty claim. The lady called Hagerty and wanted a quote on her Highlander because she was happy with the service. Progressive has issues. There is a reason they are cheap. They hire straight out of college and give them minimal training. Most don't know what they are doing. I'll bet you a $50 gift card at your choice of restaurant that your homeowners policy says it doesn't cover vehicles. There is ONE small give back, but HOMEOWNERS DOES NOT COVER CARS! As for being honest with people that's what I do. I don't lie and I don't cheat. I've called insurance companies to get At-Fault claims changed to comp or Not at Fault. I can't explain everything others do all the time. The contract is the contract. It's in B&W.
I report what I see. There are good companies to deal with. But like anything in life, there is good and there is bad. There are companies I won't deal with. Sometimes it varies by region because there is a Regional Manager who is trying to be a hero. The way that State Farm and Allstate run their businesses locally, I wouldn't give them my business if they were the last two companies on earth. Then there are companies like Auto Owners who are just the best in the business and they work with customer service in mind (and they are more expensive). EDIT: You know, it's easy to say that because I'm an independent, that I write my estimates a given way. But even when I worked at the insurance company, I wrote my estimates the same way. I fixed total losses for little old ladies or maybe padded the settlement so they could afford to buy some thing... Tom - "Hey boss, I'm fixing a total..." Boss - "How old is she?" Fair is fair. Again, I like to sleep at night.
I agree 100%. I worked for an independent appraisal company for ten years, an insurance company for seven and now work for a body shop. One of the biggest problems I saw was the fact that the agent never explained the policy to the insured. They had no clue what was covered or why until they had a claim. Then guess who had to explain it to them and become the bad guy. I ALWAYS wrote the appraisal as if I were repairing it. No shop or supervisor ever told me how to write the appraisal. The insurance company that I worked for had the attitude that they hired me because I was a professional and I could do what ever I wanted as long as I noted the file as to why I did it. They said point blank "if we owe it, pay it" If something was questionable we would sometimes pay it just for customer service. The only aftermarket parts we used were cooling and steering, suspension as long as it had a lifetime warranty. We did use undamaged salvage if available. All oem parts on current and 1 prior model year and under 15,000 miles. If someone had a 1995 vehicle with less than 15,000 miles, guess what, they got all oem parts. That is a joke about writing the shop a blank check! Do you know how many shops I caught repairing something that I had figured to replace and taping off moldings that were supposed to be removed? The best thing you can do is sit down with the agent and have explain what is covered and what is not. Explain to him your situation such as a car under restoration and let him get the best coverage.
We actually covered and paid for a custom jeep wrangler that the owner was off roading and rolled it. Paid him what it was worth minus the salvage value, he kept it and was happy.
That has to be one of the dumbest things I have ever heard. You have no clue how insurance companies actually make their money.
Shaners 74 is correct about people not knowing how insurance companies make money. It is not the policy that generates how they make money but investments are. Think about this you have a policy that you pay $500.00 a year for and you have had it for 10 years. Now you have an accident and it costs $6500.00 to repair your vehicle. All of a sudden they are $1500.00 on the negative side. There is a lot of this type of situation. I worked as an estimator for over 20 years and saw a lot of this. Granted there are a lot of people out there who do not have a loss but if they do they are covered.
Swifster, I consider you to be one of the "good" guys in the business, so my comments aren't a challenge by any means The problem with this is the insurance companies do their damnedest to decide what's fair, what's reasonable and customary, and what their obligation is with their best interest and bottom line considered first. THAT is the problem when there is a problem. Standards, prevailing rates, exclusions of operations.....no, the shops don't make those determinations. We just do the repairs and ask to be compensated for what we do---return the vehicles to pre-accident condition. Case in point---car in my shop last week. Claimant. Insured covered by Progressive. One 8" dent was dead center in the driver's door of a silver coupe. Repair area (before repairs/primer) is 14" from the edge of the door. Progressive's child adjuster figured 'modified refinish time'(blend within panel) because "they" determined a panel can be blended if damage is 14'' from the adjacent panel . Not saying I can't do it.....but what are the odds of making an indetectible paint repair in the middle of a silver car....and why should I get paid less to perform artwork(blending) than for refinishing a full panel? BTW, Before he left, the estimate was double what he originally wrote--with no arguments or voice raising on my part. I just pointed out the labor necessary to complete the job to pre-accident condition Is it no wonder shop owners bristle when insurers are mentioned?
As mentioned, the entire profit at most insurance companies are thru investment. No that they may make a profit on auto. They do (sometimes). Homeowners is a loser. I worked at AAA Michigan from 1985 until 1994. I did two years in homeowners. I was blow away when my supervisor told me that AAA had NEVER turned a profit on homeowners. It was started in 1971 and up until the time I left they had never turned a profit. As a club, they felt it was beneficial to sell it to the membership. Yes, in the end, the company made millions (probably billions now), but not where you think it came from.
I don't argue this at all. The prevailing materials rate around Orlando is $22 per paint hour. Who can make money on that? I 'give' $24 or $26 depending on the car and shop. Progressive is a joke anyways. I was working at a Ford dealer and has an Escape that needed an outer door skin. No a straight piece on it. The adjuster wanted to give me 8 hours to bumper the door. I was nice, but told her she needed to talk to her supervisor if it was over her authority. I don't expect anyone to work for free. This is especially true with vintage cars. I don't want a rush job. Fix the car right at a fair price.
Progressive is bad about that. The funny part is that the appraiser doesn't know jack about the car and has NEVER done body work. They are programmed little machines that can only dictate what they are told. Progressive also uses a ton of a/m parts and they always wind up paying more in the long run because the a/m would not fit and then we have to wait for an oem, plus paint, rental car, etc. They can't see the big picture. The High risk companies are the worst. I had one last week cut my estimate down using a picture. I had replace a lower quarter on a chevy uplander because it was blasted. They gave me 8 hours and took blend off the sliding door. Before it was over we got a new quarter and blending the door and it only took 7 additional days. They really saved some money there.
Well, I don't want to get into bashing a regular person lines company. Hopefully no one will see too many of these adjusters/appraisers out to look at their hot rod. There is definitely a lack of training in the industry. When I was hired, you had to have some kind of estimating experience. It could be cars, roofing, etc. I came from a Cadillac service department dealing with recovered thefts. I've never done body work. That hasn't been a problem. But our training program was 6 months long. We also had to learn how to hand write an estimate. Find someone who still has a book or knows how to use it. My mom could write a reasonably accurate estimate with the software that's available. Try writing an estimate on a '41 Dodge without knowing how to use both the computer and hand writing skills. Add to that they don't know what they are looking at or how the old car was assembled.
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