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Inline 6 - HELP

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by BigScott666, Oct 12, 2009.

  1. BigScott666
    Joined: Aug 31, 2008
    Posts: 184

    BigScott666
    Member
    from East Coast

    Fellas, I'm in need of some serious help.........my progress so far (and it's not much)!!!!

    NOTE: Converted the protronics - distributor points eliminator

    DAY 1

    Does anyone have the firing order for a 1964 Econoline 170? Also, I've converted from points to electronic.......need advice for setting the timing. Thanks, trying to get ole girl on the road!!!!! She's fired up for the first time in 10 months that I've owned her....but she's just running a little rough. Thanks in advance fellas!!!!!

    My son's "first car" project.........

    I've got no manuals for this truck, so if you guys could break it down "barney style" I'd greatly appreciate it!!!!! i.e......firing diagram from the top of the distributor/firing order from the front to the rear of engine.

    DAY 2

    Just worked on the truck last night. Found TDC...removed the cap...and the rotor button was pointing at the #2 cylinder. Now, where do I run the plug wires. I understand the firing order is 1-5-3-6-2-4. Please help me out fellas.

    DAY 3

    I'm still confused......having a hard time understanding these timing issues. Not sure where to plug the wires in if the button is pointing at the #2 cylinder when the timing mark is on "o". The only time the truck will start is......if I run the 153624 firing order as if the #1 cylinder was TDC , but it's not....the #2 cylinder is TDC. Hoping I'm making sense..kinda frustrated.

    When the truck is running, using a timing light, the timing mark is approx 16 degrees advanced - meaning higher than the "0" marking. Cannot adjust the timing anymore since that vaccumm type pump is on the back of the dizzy. (This is with the timing light plugged to the #1 cylinder wire)

    16
    14
    12
    10
    8
    6
    4
    2
    0

    Bare with me......first time working on one of these old inline "6's"
    <!-- / message --><!-- sig -->
     
  2. RichFox
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 10,005

    RichFox
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    153624 is the common inline six cylinder firing order. I don't quite understand what is happening. Have you found TDC on #1 by observation? Put your finger on the spark plug hole to know when it's comming up on compression. Try to see whats going on looking through the spark plug hole and compair that to the "0" mark on the dampener. Make sure your mark has not moved due to a loose dampener ring. Is your Vacume line un plugged from the distributer? and pluged so it's not a vacume leak?
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2009
  3. BigScott666
    Joined: Aug 31, 2008
    Posts: 184

    BigScott666
    Member
    from East Coast

    Thanks for the reply.

    First, I stuck a straw in the #1 cylinder.....turn the crank by hand and waiting for the highest point.....looked down on the dampener.......tick mark was on "o". (TDC correct?) When I removed the rotor cap....the button was pointed at the #2 cylinder. And yes, the vaccuum line is plugged...one going to the carb and one going the the intake manifold.
     
  4. fordcragar
    Joined: Dec 28, 2005
    Posts: 3,179

    fordcragar
    Member
    from Yakima WA.

    Was the vehicle running before you started? Did you have the distributor out? You may have the distributor a tooth or two off or you may have the cap wired wrong.
     

  5. RodStRace
    Joined: Dec 7, 2007
    Posts: 2,527

    RodStRace
    Member

    Okay, while it is nice to have the spark plug wires in the factory position on the cap, it will not matter where they are, provided that the spark happens at the right time and goes to the right cylinder.
    If the engine and dist. line up at TDC and the rotor points to a specfic dist. cap tower, that's where No. 1 should go. By now, you should know which way the dist. turns, so connect the rest of the wires in that direction 5-3-6-2-4....
    Timing. It will probably like 5-10 degrees before TDC. This is initial timing. You then have centrifugal advance (the rotor should spring load in one direction) and vacuum advance. Most engine like 32-38 degrees initial AND cent. advance at higher RPMS. Vacuum advance will be an additional 10-15 degrees more.
     
  6. BigScott666
    Joined: Aug 31, 2008
    Posts: 184

    BigScott666
    Member
    from East Coast

    yes, the truck runs.......but very rough. Never had the dizzy out.....heard you cannot pull out? Any truth to this? Heard there was some rod at the bottom that may fall kin your oil pan?

    BTW: It's a 1964 Econoline pick-up.

    Had a buddy install the protronics - could it be wired wrong?
     
  7. BigScott666
    Joined: Aug 31, 2008
    Posts: 184

    BigScott666
    Member
    from East Coast

    ok, after the removing the #1 spark plug and finding TDC - the rotor button pointed at the #2 cylinder. So, we made the #2 cylinder the new #1 cylinder - and rotated all the wires clockwise......but the engine would not fire. The only way the engine fires, if we return the wires to the original position...as if the #1 cylinder was TDC (meaning the rotor button was pointed at that cylinder)
     
  8. Gator
    Joined: Dec 29, 2005
    Posts: 4,016

    Gator
    Member

    Could be 180 out. First thing you need to do is buy a manual for it.
     
  9. BigScott666
    Joined: Aug 31, 2008
    Posts: 184

    BigScott666
    Member
    from East Coast

    The rotor button turns clockwise. So, if the # 2 cylinder is at TDC.....how would you plug the wires on the cap compared to the engine?

    Firing Order: 1-5-3-6-2-4
    Engine: from front to back 1-2-3-4-5-6
    Rotor: ?
     
  10. BigScott666
    Joined: Aug 31, 2008
    Posts: 184

    BigScott666
    Member
    from East Coast

    thanks - ordered one...waiting for it.
     
  11. RodStRace
    Joined: Dec 7, 2007
    Posts: 2,527

    RodStRace
    Member

    Okay, so this is the timeline?
    Bought truck
    10 months later, after converting from points to electronic, it runs but rough.
    Tried moving the wires in the cap, and it won't run.
    Moved wires back, runs but rough.

    Sounds like it's time to check the condition of the basic engine.
    Compression check.
    Running check of vacuum and check for vacuum leaks.
    Timing check, base and advance.
    Does it have fresh gas?


    http://www.northland-falcons.com/ford_falcon_engine_&_transmission_identification.htm

    This shows counterclockwise....
     
  12. BigScott666
    Joined: Aug 31, 2008
    Posts: 184

    BigScott666
    Member
    from East Coast

    -Yes, brand new fuel cell = new gas.
    -Haven't done a compression check, yet - guess thats next.
    -I'm trying to figure out this timing issue....I think it's def the problem. If I can only get the wires in the right location. Just doesn't make any sense that the truck will only fire with the wires in the placement as if the #1 cylinder was at TDC - but thats not the case...the #2 cylinder is at TDC.
     
  13. BigScott666
    Joined: Aug 31, 2008
    Posts: 184

    BigScott666
    Member
    from East Coast

  14. RodStRace
    Joined: Dec 7, 2007
    Posts: 2,527

    RodStRace
    Member

    Last time I messed with a 170 was easily 15-20 years ago, so I don't remember.
    If you have them wired backwards, that sure would explain rough!!!!
     
  15. BigScott666
    Joined: Aug 31, 2008
    Posts: 184

    BigScott666
    Member
    from East Coast


    So, the protronics could be wired backwards? Could anything else be wired backwards? Man, you've been a TONS of help...that wiring diagram was MONEY!!!!!!
     
  16. RodStRace
    Joined: Dec 7, 2007
    Posts: 2,527

    RodStRace
    Member

  17. BigScott666
    Joined: Aug 31, 2008
    Posts: 184

    BigScott666
    Member
    from East Coast


    yes, thats the same as mine....same firing order.
     
  18. belair
    Joined: Jul 10, 2006
    Posts: 8,668

    belair
    Member

    If the pertronix is wired in wrong, it won't run at all, I think.
     
  19. plym49
    Joined: Aug 9, 2008
    Posts: 2,797

    plym49
    Member
    from Earth

    Gee, I'm not sure from the previous, when you used that straw to find TDC were you on the compression stroke? If not you are 180 degrees off with the wires.
     
  20. BigScott666
    Joined: Aug 31, 2008
    Posts: 184

    BigScott666
    Member
    from East Coast

    how do you know if you're on the compression stroke or the exhaust stroke?
     
  21. plym49
    Joined: Aug 9, 2008
    Posts: 2,797

    plym49
    Member
    from Earth

    Stick your finger in the spark lug hole as you slowly turn over the engine. If you are on the compression stroke you will feel the pressure building. If you are on the exhaust stroke, there will be no pressure buildup.

    If you were on the wrong stroke, then the wire you ran to '1' should have gone to '6', and so on:

    1 5 3
    6 2 4
     
  22. RichFox
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 10,005

    RichFox
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Remember I told you to stick your thumb in the spark plug hole to see if it's comming up on compression. If you build pressure it's commong up to TDC on compression. It should fire 10 degrees or so before TDC
     
  23. jmschristiansen
    Joined: Oct 22, 2008
    Posts: 15

    jmschristiansen
    Member

    You can also watch the valves move as you rotate the engine, see the intake open as the piston goes down, then close as it is coming up, the exhaust valve should already be closed. Just think about how the engine works, and watch the pieces move.

    Good luck!
     
  24. best to bring up #1 on compression and see where the rotor is pointing. here is where some people get confused, when asked where rotor is pointing and the response is "at #2 cylinder" do you mean the actual cylinder or #2 plug wire on dist cap? believe me i have had this type of confusion before trying to help sort out similar issues. terminology mistakes can really confuse someone that doesn't know any better.
     
  25. BigScott666
    Joined: Aug 31, 2008
    Posts: 184

    BigScott666
    Member
    from East Coast

    First, I appreciate all the information provided. You guys were a great help. Due to my current workload - I won't be able to begin work on the Econoline until tomorrow evening. Thanks again.

    I'll report back with the outcome.
     
  26. BigScott666
    Joined: Aug 31, 2008
    Posts: 184

    BigScott666
    Member
    from East Coast

    UPDATE: Well, we began work on the Econoline last night. Started by attacking the battery issue....the battery was loosing voltage for some reason.....removed the generator and brought it down to get tested - turned out BAD.......now, either get it re-wound or try to see if NAPA can get me another one. So, as you can see....never got to the timing issues.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but my Econoline is a 1964, and these generator style charging systems came on the 61-63s?? Just wondering if I have an older motor or older charging system.
     
  27. mustangsix
    Joined: Mar 7, 2005
    Posts: 1,297

    mustangsix
    Member

    The distributor rotates clockwise. Once you find TDC on the compression stroke, where ever the rotor is, that's where the #1 wire goes. 153624 clockwise. Someone already mentioned it, but the engine hits TDC on the exhaust stroke, too, 180 degrees out.

    My experience with Pertronix is that they don't work well if the voltage falls below about 8 volts. The Ford has a resistance wire in the ignition circuit so if you simply wire it to the coil as shown in the basic instructions, it won't be getting a full 12 volts. What worked for me was to leave the ignition wire on the coil and move the red Pertronix wire to a separate switched 12V source. Leave the black Pertonix wire on the (-) side of the coil.
     
  28. BigScott666
    Joined: Aug 31, 2008
    Posts: 184

    BigScott666
    Member
    from East Coast

    Thanks - sent you a PM.
     
  29. BigScott666
    Joined: Aug 31, 2008
    Posts: 184

    BigScott666
    Member
    from East Coast

    Wow, alot harder to get one of these generators than I thought.
    Looking into getting it re-wound

    What about converting these to an alternator for 64-67 econoline?
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2009
  30. Screamin' Metal
    Joined: Feb 1, 2009
    Posts: 506

    Screamin' Metal
    Member
    from Oklahoma

    Mustangsix is right........follow his advice..........153624 IS the firing order
    Bring #1 to TDC, look down at dampner....should be at 0, with the dist. rotor button pointing toward # 1 tower....if the valvecover is off, you should be on your cam basecircle for the intake and exhaust......make sure your not holding a valve open.........................run your plugwires 153624 in the correct rotation....hook everything up...........prime the carb........start her up........now she might run rough to start...........loosen the dist. holdown, rotate it slowly.........get it running smooth..........let her warm up..........then see where your at with the timing light..........

    I use timing lights for reference only.....every engine runs different..........

    hope this helps.........:cool:
     

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