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Hot Rods I'M GOING TO BUILD AN ALTERED.

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Don's Hot Rods, Oct 4, 2014.

  1. jimcolwell
    Joined: Oct 4, 2009
    Posts: 474

    jimcolwell
    Member
    from Amarillo

    Built by T Bar Chassis Amarillo in the late 60's. Moose Schroder (Henry) was an aluminum farthest who knew how to TIG weld chrome moly and mild steel. He built aluminum bodies for every one in the country right on US 66 in Amarillo. 1417841824280.jpg
     
  2. GearheadsQCE
    Joined: Mar 23, 2011
    Posts: 2,305

    GearheadsQCE
    Member

    I want an open race car. My tastes go toward '27 T roadster with hood top and '32 grille shell. With or without '29 fenders. Big Block, Small Block or Inline 6, I don't care. Mine would have to have a Quick Change. Come to think of it, I have most of the major components. Just have to finish and sell 3 other projects first. I will be 90 by then too.

    :)
     
    volvobrynk likes this.
  3. pnevells
    Joined: Sep 5, 2008
    Posts: 401

    pnevells
    Member

    Don,
    I completely agree with Rooman, We run a spool and aftermarket aluminum pinion support in our altered, I picked up a Strange spool and axles off of Craiglist.it drives great I used steet ring and pinion, the car does not weigh that much, no need for pro gears. Our car has a 4:56 with a 33in tire keeps the rpm just right
     
  4. Baron
    Joined: Aug 13, 2004
    Posts: 3,374

    Baron
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Marty. That is a great looking car. What kind of numbers did it run ?
     
  5. Don's Hot Rods
    Joined: Oct 7, 2005
    Posts: 8,319

    Don's Hot Rods
    Member
    from florida

    So many great cars being posted on here. I can only imagine how much fun they were to run down the quarter.

    As for the question "ididn'tdoit1960" had about a tubing bender, ours is one my Son Dan built from a ProTools version he cut up and modified. It takes 1 inch, 1.25, 1.5, and 1.75 dies, but mostly we use the 1.5 and 1.75. It will be getting a workout on this altered !

    Don

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2014
  6. Andamo
    Joined: Jan 10, 2006
    Posts: 502

    Andamo
    Member

    And here I thought that was some sort of exercise equipment. On second thought, I guess it really is.
     
    loudbang likes this.
  7. Marty Strode
    Joined: Apr 28, 2011
    Posts: 4,390

    Marty Strode
    Member

    Baron, I only ran it a total of 11 quarter mile and 3 eighth mile passes. The reason was, around here in '75, the fast bracket cutoff was 11.50. My 4th run netted a 10.09, and I could see mid-9's were easily reachable, but Peat Bros Al Pombo.jpg with the 4 speed I would lack the consistency to do any good. I ran the eighth at 6.36 @ 110. My budget would not allow me to "class race", so I parted the car out and spent the money on more equipment and went into the car building business. I do still have the toploader Ford trans along with an injected SBC, and a bunch of champ quickchange parts. My plan is to build something like this, and do all sorts of racing.
     
    volvobrynk likes this.
  8. flatheadgary
    Joined: Jul 17, 2007
    Posts: 717

    flatheadgary
    Member
    from boron,ca

    man i love altereds!! if you have never ran an altered it is some kind of e-ticket ride. no matter how fast it is, it feels like you are flying! my bantam is not fast by any means, but everybody that has driven it figures they were going hundreds of mph. hahaha. when they get the time slip they can't believe they only went 85 and 16. seconds. it's kind of like a motorcycle, out in the open and such. what's really neat about the series i run in is, all the cars and drivers that can't run ne anymore due to age or health or tech or something, run some really cool machinery.
     
  9. Don's Hot Rods
    Joined: Oct 7, 2005
    Posts: 8,319

    Don's Hot Rods
    Member
    from florida

    Yep, kinda like a big go kart. :)


    Today I built my frame..............................................out of wood. :D Picked up a few 2 x 4's and started to figure out what the real frame should look like. I love building the mockup frame out of lumber, it is so easy to make changes , so much easier than if you make a mistake in steel tubing.

    My Sons have also talked me into making one radical change from my original plan. I am going to run coil overs and a 4 link rear setup instead of the solidly mounted rear I was thinking of doing. The main reason was that to look right the frame had to be kicked up 6 inches in the rear, otherwise it hung down under the body too far. That moved my rear tires way up into the body, so the only way to move them back down was to put some suspension back there.

    It will probably be better in the long run. I can fine tune my launch and the ride down the quarter will probably be a little softer on my old behind.

    So, here is my wooden frame. The front crossmember will actually be round tubing and the second one (that supports the rear of the Moon tank, will be something like 1 inch diameter round tubing. I may make up a sheet metal panel to go over the top to dress it up, and may send it to Need Louvers to have a few louvers punched in it. All that is just planning though, and won't know till I get to that point.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Then we slipped the body on to see how it fit:

    [​IMG]

    My favorite view of a Bantam:

    [​IMG]

    A picture of the interior:

    [​IMG]

    And back under the body where my battery and rear end will go:

    [​IMG]

    Oh, and I was able to pick up a couple of inches in wheel base. It should end up at 102 or so. Even better.

    Don
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2014
    volvobrynk likes this.
  10. Andamo
    Joined: Jan 10, 2006
    Posts: 502

    Andamo
    Member

    I know you're trying to build the altered as somewhat period correct, but going with the coil overs and 4 link is a smart move. Once you get the suspension dialed in and find the right tire pressure for the track, it'll make the actual racing fun. Having to use the rear tires as the only suspension tuning parameter on a solid rear end can be hit or miss throughout the racing day.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2014
    volvobrynk and loudbang like this.
  11. Don's Hot Rods
    Joined: Oct 7, 2005
    Posts: 8,319

    Don's Hot Rods
    Member
    from florida

    Yeah, I am starting to realize that. I was determined that this one would be simple and a solid rear was what I had always planned, but I agree this will make it better.

    Ya know, I don't think I have ever built a car that ended up being what I started out to build. As it goes along you start finding reasons to change what you had planned, but somehow it does make a nicer car in the end.

    Don
     
  12. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 2,844

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Member
    from FRENCHTOWN

    X2 ^


    Don, Did you copy that frame from the "Wood Brothers"?
    Har
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2014
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  13. 64 DODGE 440
    Joined: Sep 2, 2006
    Posts: 4,040

    64 DODGE 440
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from so cal

    Just be sure that the glue you use to put the chassis together is rated for outdoor use and make all of your gussets out of aircraft grade plywood and you should be fine.
     
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  14. nobux
    Joined: Oct 19, 2002
    Posts: 631

    nobux
    Member

    Are you planning on running an aluminum cowl extension to transition to the narrower frame?
     
  15. Baron
    Joined: Aug 13, 2004
    Posts: 3,374

    Baron
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Looking at the pictures, it looks like the kick up starts right where you'll be sitting. I'd try moving that back as far as possible to gain seat and leg room. Even if it is only 2 or 3 inches,it can make a huge difference.
     
  16. pnevells
    Joined: Sep 5, 2008
    Posts: 401

    pnevells
    Member

    Don, The suspended car is the way to go, We did ours with an S&W ladder bar kit and the cheapie shocks with the coil springs over them and it hooks everywhere with a 10.5 in tire makes it much more fun to race when it launches good every time. This was my first car ever with suspension after a bunch of dragsters with solid rears and I now see why thay started putting 4 links in the dragsters, they are much better to drive. Here is a recent pic from Beaver Springs, shaker at beaver comp.JPG picture by Todd Dziadosz
     
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  17. GearheadsQCE
    Joined: Mar 23, 2011
    Posts: 2,305

    GearheadsQCE
    Member

    Should really use hickory for frame rails. SPF is like using electrical conduit for roll bars.
     
  18. Degenerate
    Joined: Aug 5, 2007
    Posts: 236

    Degenerate
    Member
    from Indiana

    I raced a Bantam altered in the mid '80's with a solid rear end mounting. I agree with the idea of a sprung rear. I had good consistent runs at my home track but when I ventured out to a different track my set up was hard to hook up. My car was a handful but I still would climb in and hammer the throttle each run. A four link will make handling more predictable once you sort it out. I ran a BBC/powerglide combo with a 8 3/4 chrysler with a 4:10 spool. 33 in slicks. Went 9.80's with a carburetor. Looking forward to watching your build.
     
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  19. Don's Hot Rods
    Joined: Oct 7, 2005
    Posts: 8,319

    Don's Hot Rods
    Member
    from florida

    If you guys think my wood rails are funny, wait till you see my pvc tubing roll cage ! :D

    I haven't been ignoring some of the questions and comments you guys have raised when I post, but with this new format I can't figure out how to do quotes.........when I try they come out in that dark area that you have to click on. And if I try to go back and remember what you have said I miss some of it, sorry. You guys have been nice enough to ask these things and I need to make sure I respond.

    But to answer a few. No, I am not going to do a transition from the firewall to the narrower frame. I am just going to skin the glassed in firewall with a flat aluminum sheet .

    I also think the suggestion that the kickup might start too far up in the cockpit is a good one. I considered that myself, but needed room between the kickup and the axle. These damn Bantam bodies are so short in the rear that it doesn't leave much room for suspension and all that stuff. BUT, I am going to take your suggestion and see if I can shove the kickup back a couple inches more to give me more hip room. I do want the rear slicks centered in the wheel openings though, to look right. (I hope Home Depot has more 2 x4's:p)

    I may be able to actually use the mockup I have by sliding the body forward a couple of inches on the frame. I left 35 inches between firewall to grille shell and was being generous with that. I could get by with less plus I will be using smaller diameter tubing for the rear Moon tank mount and can pick up an inch or so there. In any event, I have a lot of room to play with and I don't think I will need a ton of room between the rear axle and the kickup, just enough for the rear end to move up and down a little without hitting the kickup. It is probably getting to the point where I need to order my slicks and rear wheels so I can make a dummy rear end up and see how things will really fit back there.

    All very good suggestions, and when I get home from work tonight I will reread all that you guys have posted and try to respond to anything I might have missed.

    Don
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2014
  20. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 2,844

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Member
    from FRENCHTOWN

    OK, since you are considering a 4-bar I think you should consider putting some taper into the frame rails. Most 4-link front brackets are attached at the frame kick-up. So moving the kick-up rearward will mean your 4-bars are starting to get really short. By spreading the frame rails apart a few inches in the rear you could give yourself more seat room but not have to shorten the bars excessively. I think you want to keep bars at least 12-14 inches long. Juggle things around back there until you get it all to fit.
    Another (less desireable to me) option would be to put the suspension on the outside (or inside) of the frame rails. That would give you a place for longer bars at the expense of not having the rear bar heims in a double-shear mounting condition. I have seen this done on another rigid car that was converted to a 4-bar set up. That is also how it is on my Logghe car, which I converted from a ladder bar setup (too violent) to a 4-bar by adding another outboard attaching point and another bar:

    [​IMG][​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2014
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  21. derbydad276
    Joined: May 29, 2011
    Posts: 1,286

    derbydad276
    Member

    interesting idea using wood will you also fab your brackets and hang your front and rear axles of the wood
    so you only build the frame (once)
     
  22. abone1930
    Joined: Jan 16, 2006
    Posts: 1,313

    abone1930
    Member

  23. Lockjaw
    Joined: Sep 1, 2003
    Posts: 153

    Lockjaw
    Member

    if you are going to run suspension also put an anti roll bar on the rear. you'll be glad you did
     

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  24. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 2,844

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Member
    from FRENCHTOWN

    I agree that an anti-roll bar can be helpful. But Lockjaw, in the photo you posted you show it on a car equipped with ladder bars. Ladder bars in-and-of-themselves act like a giant anti-roll bar, essentially making the entire axle housing the anti-roll bar torsion element.
     
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  25. flatheadgary
    Joined: Jul 17, 2007
    Posts: 717

    flatheadgary
    Member
    from boron,ca

    look at it this way don. if the wood frame works out maybe you could start a new soap box derby class.
     
  26. Lockjaw
    Joined: Sep 1, 2003
    Posts: 153

    Lockjaw
    Member

    frenchtown- the T i raced even though it had ladder bars became extremely well behaved after the addition of an anti roll bar. i agree in theory what you say though.May have to do with chassis rigidity
     
  27. Don's Hot Rods
    Joined: Oct 7, 2005
    Posts: 8,319

    Don's Hot Rods
    Member
    from florida

    Ron from RPM just told me my front end parts are almost done, can't wait to get those. Also, I ordered two Mickey Thompson ET 10.50 X 30 slicks and two American 15 x 10 Torq Thrusts from Summit today. Got the tubes for the slicks too. Amazingly, even the wheels and tires qualified for free shipping !

    Now I REALLY better get started on my frame ! :D

    Don
     
  28. Most of the cars we do now run the slicks tubeless, if you run tubes I would recommend using baby powder or talc inside tire with the tube even if you screw the wheel to the tire.
    As far as the anti roll bar, we use them on all the cars we build, this way you can put your 4 link, ladder bars,or stock type control arms in the neutral position and use the anti roll bar to put your preload in.
    SPEEDY
     
  29. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 2,844

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Member
    from FRENCHTOWN

    I don't screw my tires to the wheels. Nor does my buddy with a seven second altered.
     
  30. Don's Hot Rods
    Joined: Oct 7, 2005
    Posts: 8,319

    Don's Hot Rods
    Member
    from florida

    I asked Summit about the tubeless thing and they said I HAD to run tubes with these tires. I was hoping I didn't have to because Summit would have mounted and balanced them but they don't do ones with tubes in them. I would love to run them tubeless, so are you saying I should be able to do that ? I also didn't want to screw the tires to the wheels to keep from drilling holes in my nice, new wheels :)D).

    I may call Mickey Thompson tires and ask about that subject.

    I went to the shop tonight and slid the body 3 inches further forward on the wooden frame and it did give me a lot more cockpit room, as was suggested by Baron a few posts ago. To compensate, I will make the front part of the frame 3 inches longer so I keep the same engine room depth.

    Don


    I think Summit steered me wrong about having to use tubes. I just found this on another site where they are selling the exact same slick:

    • Recommended for use with Mickey Thompson tube 9555 (not required)
    If true, it will save me $140 in tubes and make them easier to mount.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2014

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