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Hot Rods I'M GOING TO BUILD AN ALTERED.

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Don's Hot Rods, Oct 4, 2014.

  1. Don's Hot Rods
    Joined: Oct 7, 2005
    Posts: 8,319

    Don's Hot Rods
    Member
    from florida

    That isn't inspiration, it is perspiration ! :eek::eek::D

    Don
     
  2. I bought the old Groundshaker Jr. from the Zobrist Brothers there in Las Vegas and put a big block Chevy in it with a single 4 bbl and ran brackets - I sold it minus engine to a guy named Richard? changed it around and he apparently crashed it somewhere in Utah or Arizona.
     
  3. loudbang
    Joined: Jul 23, 2013
    Posts: 25,302

    loudbang
    Member

    This is a perfect example of why you better put some wheelie bars on it from the get go. :eek:

    Not mine just a guy that thought doing a giant wheelie to win the wheelie contest was the way to go ...I don't think it was worth it LOL.

     
  4. 97
    Joined: May 18, 2005
    Posts: 1,530

    97
    Member

  5. oldolds
    Joined: Oct 18, 2010
    Posts: 2,862

    oldolds
    Member

    This might be easier. Not my car, just saw it on another site.


    Classifieds ::
    Drag Racing Cars
    ::
    Altered

    For Sale: '32 Austin Bantam Roadster

    Ad #182280926 Posted:2014-09-10 16:37:30
    [​IMG]

    This ad expires in 35 days.
    $7,000.00


    Ready to run. 383 sbc with comp roller cam and 750 Dominator. Less than 40 passes. Runs 10.50's @ 125 mph. Powerglide with transbrake. Good tires and ready to race. Will sell with 22' Enclosed trailer for $11,000.

    Seller Phone Number: (575) 626-5271
    Seller Phone Number2: (575) 626-8888
    This item is USED
    Trades ACCEPTED
    : Will consider Motorcycle or street car, pickup of like value.
    Payment options:
    [​IMG]
    Item Location: ROSWELL, NM Get Directions To This City
    [​IMG]
     
  6. Don's Hot Rods
    Joined: Oct 7, 2005
    Posts: 8,319

    Don's Hot Rods
    Member
    from florida

    I mentioned that I was going to glass in the firewall, so today I picked up a 1/2 inch thick 2 x 4 foot piece of oak plywood and cut it to size. It made a world of difference in the alignment and strength of the body. When I screwed it down I could see the body starting to pull into shape, and it will be much less prone to cracking than if I just screwed an aluminum firewall to the little lip around the perimeter of the cowl. I can now pick up the body and it doesn't twist like a wet noodle.

    The screws are just temporary, my plan is to remove the plywood and put a bead of West System Six 10 epoxy around the lip and then screw the wood back in place. Once that sets up it will make the wood and the body one strong piece, then I can put a layer of fiberglass mat on both sides of the plywood to seal it and to tie it into the body better.

    Finally, I will cut a piece of either aluminum or stainless sheet to cover up the fiberglass and to give the firewall that all steel look. Here are a couple of pictures from tonight, the screws are just temporary till the glass sets up, and will be replaced with polished stainless button head bolts. Now I can order a stick of 2 x 3 x 1/8 tubing and start making the frame.

    Don

    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2014
    AHotRod likes this.
  7. loudbang
    Joined: Jul 23, 2013
    Posts: 25,302

    loudbang
    Member

  8. 9sectruck
    Joined: Dec 2, 2012
    Posts: 347

    9sectruck
    Member

    Subscribed, always fancied an Altered and I love Bantams. I'm going to enjoy watching this one come together, good luck with your build.
     
  9. Don's Hot Rods
    Joined: Oct 7, 2005
    Posts: 8,319

    Don's Hot Rods
    Member
    from florida

    Thanks, guys. I've been thinking about it, and I am going to first build my frame out of 2 x 4 lumber to work out my wheelbase and width. I want as much wb as possible to make it handle better, but I want it to look proportional too. The other night I ran a tape measure down the side and even stretching the wb out to 100 inches made it look too long..........this body is SO short !

    To get some extra wb I am going to move the motor a few inches forward of the firewall, I think. That will kill two birds at the same time. It will allow me to get more wb and look ok, and it will move the bulk of the TH350 transmission a little out of my cockpit. Since I will be straddling the transmission, I think moving it forward will make my seating more comfortable.

    Once I get the wooden frame made I can remove one of the slicks from my rpu project and put it under the back and prop up another tire in the front to see where all that looks good. I know on a drag car form should follow function, but I still want it to look good too.

    Don
     
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  10. hog mtn dave
    Joined: Jul 14, 2004
    Posts: 1,335

    hog mtn dave
    Member

    Some perspective on wheelbase. 120" or so is pretty common but, for a bantam especially, looks way too long. My coupe is 112" and I think it looks too long. A stock '70 Camaro by comparison is only 108", and it's not considered a short wheelbase or bad handling car. Since you're looking for low 10s you shouldn't have to worry about handling issues with 100" or less. That neighborhood will sure give you "the look".

    Looks good.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2014
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  11. druids62
    Joined: Oct 1, 2009
    Posts: 186

    druids62
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I must say, this build has really peaked my interest. And like my Pappy always said, " if you haven't any thing to add and you wish to learn, stay quiet and watch!" So I'll be in the corner watching. Thank you for posting your progress Mr. Don.

    I could fetch sandwiches and drinks if y'all wish.
     
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  12. Don's Hot Rods
    Joined: Oct 7, 2005
    Posts: 8,319

    Don's Hot Rods
    Member
    from florida

    Thanks, guys. Hog Mtn, you are right, if you look at the Fox Mustangs they are right at 100.5 inches and look at the speeds some of those are running. I had my Mustang in the garage next to my 27 one day, and my 27 has a 103.5 wb, and the Mustang looked tiny next to it.

    I quickly ran a tape down the Bantam body yesterday, and from where I figure rear axle centerline to the firewall is only 41 inches. I then measured from the firewall on my rpu project to the front axle centerline on that car, and it is 48 inches. So, even if I stretch out the wb with a suicide front end, I am going to end up in the 96-100 inch wb area. That should be ok.

    Druids62, a sammich would be good about now ! :D

    Don

    Oh, something that I have been wondering about. I am considering about 15 degrees caster in the front. Is that too much, not enough ? I probably will be running something like 145 radials on the front (I want a short tire) and 11 inch slicks on the back, about 30 inches tall.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2014
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  13. Baron
    Joined: Aug 13, 2004
    Posts: 3,360

    Baron
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    The Bantam body's have such a short cowl that you almost have to move the motor forward. This picture of Ed's shows how far forward his motor is. Also note how far back the sitting position is. Me in Ed\'s Altered.jpg .
     
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  14. Don's Hot Rods
    Joined: Oct 7, 2005
    Posts: 8,319

    Don's Hot Rods
    Member
    from florida

    That is what I figured too. I already planned on cutting into the section behind the cockpit to move the roll cage back a little. I am not tall, but these things are pretty cramped as they come. I am also moving the motor up a little . That is a cool altered, BTW. Is that hoop design on his cage NHRA legal. If so, I like the way he did it.

    I see a lot of altered with little shields like his plexiglass one on top of the cowl. What is that for ?

    Don
     
  15. old sparks
    Joined: Mar 12, 2012
    Posts: 414

    old sparks
    Member

    The shield is to comply with ,in my case , nhra rules. If I remember, 5" by 7". That cage wouldn't pass tech at Bakersfield. The shield is supposed to deflect fluids and parts, which didn't happen for me.
     
  16. Marty Strode
    Joined: Apr 28, 2011
    Posts: 4,288

    Marty Strode
    Member

    Don, You need to get a NHRA rule book. It will show diagrams of what is legal, as far as the roll cage. The front loop on the cage must be a minimum of 3" in front of the driver's helmet. The shield on the cowl is a "windscreen", the purpose is to divert wind, fluids, foreign matter over the driver's head. As far as caster 7 to 9 degrees should be plenty, however I would build some adjustment into the front end. If you move the engine forward, I would build a cowl extension to take up the gap. You will be able to take advantage of that space, gaining more leg room.
     
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  17. ididntdoit1960
    Joined: Dec 13, 2011
    Posts: 897

    ididntdoit1960
    Member
    from Western MA

    This is great.....since were building pretty much the same car, I hope this is not a hijack - I was shooting for a 96" wheelbase ultimately I have ended up at 98"....if I adhere to the 25percent setback the entire "bellhousing" of my pg is forward of the firewall....is there a good reason to stick with the 25percent "rule" or would you set it back a bit further? F WIW I liked the look best at 94" but the ft axle and suspension I chose ended up dictating a perch.....hence the extra 2"
     
  18. rooman
    Joined: Sep 20, 2006
    Posts: 3,803

    rooman
    Member

    The 25% set back rule went away some time ago. I have rulebooks dating back to 1990 on the shelf at my shop and any setback was legal then. Even when it was in force it was pretty much an NHRA deal and outlaw racers ran whatever they thought was good.
    I agree with Marty on the cage and the cowl extension and just checked the rule book on the windscreen. To be NHRA legal it needs to be at least 5" tall and 12" wide. As for caster I can tell you that the Force funny cars only run 6 degrees although I would probably go with around 10 degrees. Go back to the top of the previous page and check Marty's photos of the rectangular lower rail car for the perfect package--wrap some aluminum over what is shown there back as far as the firewall in the Bantam body.

    Roo
     
  19. BillWallace
    Joined: May 6, 2011
    Posts: 132

    BillWallace
    Member

    you might want to go to the Spitzer racing web site & see how they build their Bantam bodies for altered's. I have built many chassis for these cars using the Spitzer altered bodies with 18 inch inside frame rails & 125 inch wheel base. You will find that is often the case in life longer is better. One of my altered's from my shop won super comp at the US Nationals this year.
     
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  20. old sparks
    Joined: Mar 12, 2012
    Posts: 414

    old sparks
    Member

    sorry about the size of the shield, I was going by memory which in my case is nonexistent. Mr. strode is right about the cage. That might be a cackle car with the mask because that is not legal anymore.
     
  21. Don's Hot Rods
    Joined: Oct 7, 2005
    Posts: 8,319

    Don's Hot Rods
    Member
    from florida

    Lots of good info, some of which I didn't know. My Son Don does have a rule book because he is building a Capri for the drags, but it is a couple of years old, maybe. I will order one for myself.

    I have pretty much settled on 2 x 3 x 1/8 main rails that are 24 inches apart outside to outside. That dimension will fit the T grill shell I will be using and also give me some room for the transmission, etc. I am not building for any class, as I will be running the brackets, however, I just want to pass tech when I get there.

    I'm surprised about the caster thing though..........I thought dialing in more than I run on my street cars would be the way to go. It looks like all of you are saying I don't need the extra caster I was thinking about ?

    All of the suggestions and comments are really very appreciated, and already you guys have saved me from making some mistakes. Thanks.

    Don

    Oh, by the way, I never consider anything a hijack in any of my threads, so if anyone has any questions or comments about their own projects, please feel free to ask away. I don't take any of this real serious, so the more the merrier !
     
  22. flatheadgary
    Joined: Jul 17, 2007
    Posts: 708

    flatheadgary
    Member
    from boron,ca

    don, i have followed most of your builds and have liked all of them. when i built my bantam i had a lot of the same questions you do except back in '94, when i built mine, nobody was building them. i agree with most all of the answers your getting too. i race at Bakersfield in the ANRA series every year and have won against 10 second dragsters and altered. i also moved my engine forward to lose some of the length. as far as caster goes, i figured, if it didn't go any faster than my street car, 7-10 degrees was good enough. always has been too. my frame was built using the ccr frame plans so it is a little long by most standards. also, remember, if you use a radiator take that into consideration for fans and such. you might want to build an aluminum curved seat too. don't build it straight up and down. sometimes you have to sit in the lanes for quite awhile, like say when a real fast car decides to loose its lunch on the track.. i remember at LACR once a guy interviewed me for a tv show he did. i gave him a piece of my mind about people not building 10 sec and slower altereds. i find most people always want what they really can't afford and feel the need to tell you to do the same. build it to your budget and just enjoy what it will do. you can always make it go faster later. unless ne class is what your aiming for, then build it right from the start. i got to admit one thing though, i would really like to go 7.'s just once in an altered!! ha
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2014
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  23. Don's Hot Rods
    Joined: Oct 7, 2005
    Posts: 8,319

    Don's Hot Rods
    Member
    from florida

    Haha, that is the problem, Gary, once we get a taste of speed we want more ! :) You make some good points, especially about the seat. I am thinking of a Kirkey 18 incher, both of my Sons have those for their Fox cars and I like them.

    All I want out of this car is something to run down the track in that is somewhat quick, doesn't cost a lot, and doesn't break parts much. I got my drag racing appetite rewetted when I ran my 27 at the BP drags, and while it was fun, the car had some drawbacks. No traction, a stick shift, and I was worried about abusing the drivetrain that wasn't built for racing. (I kept having this thought that the flywheel would come through the floor at the 7,000 rpms I was turning ! One run I forgot to shift and saw the tach to to 8,000. :eek:)

    So on the altered I am going to overbuild everything, like the rear end, and limit the motor to about 6,000 rpms. That should let me make lots of passes, have a bunch of fun, and not break the bank. Not looking to set any records, just maybe win a bracket race now and then.

    Don
     
  24. Hi Don, just found this thread so have read through it and added to my watch list. Now highjacks, hows the cats ?, no, just pulling your leg as that use to be another site aye. I too will be sitting in the corner drinking all your cold beers watching but not saying much so forgive me if the fidge door is left ajar once in awhile....:D;)
     
  25. Here's a side shot of hamb member Rick proctor [​IMG]
     
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  26. flatheadgary
    Joined: Jul 17, 2007
    Posts: 708

    flatheadgary
    Member
    from boron,ca

    yea don, that sounds like the plan. obviously my bantam won't even go 6 grand but my brothers does and it's just a x303 ford cam motor. he did 11.20 the other day at the ANRA. i just love the way it comes out of the hole. no matter how fast an altered goes, it always feels like it's going faster. kind of like a motorcycle feels. i just have always wondered why so many people have to run door cars instead of altereds. an altered will cost less and go a lot faster for the money. it is almost an absolute that a 1500 lb 500 hp car will go 10's. though, i have noticed that if you keep it around 11.'s it runs longer without any mishaps. i think most people just expect an altered to go like a fuel car. when people ask me why i don't build door cars to race, i tell them "ford, gm and mopar don't send me a paycheck each month to run their stuff", i run whatever i want. i have a fed i am trying to sell to finance my next altered, this time a sbc motor. though, if nobody buys it, i might just use my mold and make a t body for it and make it a modified gas roadster. i have never been a dragster fan. don't know why. there just altereds without a body and their longer. i got suckered into buying it for a friend, to go into partnership with, then his wife said "he wasn't going to drive that thing". so that was that! here is a pic of it.
    [​IMG]
     
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  27. Don's Hot Rods
    Joined: Oct 7, 2005
    Posts: 8,319

    Don's Hot Rods
    Member
    from florida

    Thanks for those pictures, guys. I agree, Gary, an open car, like an altered, can put down good times with minimal expense and hp. Plus, they are easy to work on because everything is out in the open.

    Tonight I got my plywood inner firewall bonded to the body with the Six 10 adhesive. When that sets up I will remove the screws and put glass mat over both sides to seal it all up.

    Yesterday we picked up the 24 foot stick of 2 x 3 x 1/8 tubing I ordered and I had them cut it into two 10 foot pieces with one 4 footer left over. I will use the 10 footers for the side rails and part of the 4 footer for my rear frame rail. We had a Total Performance tube front crossmember and perch laying around, so I am going to use that for the front crossmember. As a lot of you on here suggested, I am going to space the frame rails 24 inches apart at the outside. That seems to be right on.

    Got it mocked up tonight, and it looks like my wheelbase will work out to about 100 inches. Kinda short, but I want it to look proportionate, and that seems to be where it will look the best, at least to my eye right now. I finally am able to use the Moon tank Ken Thurn sent me for a gift some time ago. I was saving it for a special project, and this is it. Thanks again, Ken. :):)

    Don

    [​IMG]

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    Last edited: Nov 8, 2014
  28. Another way-cool, Don-the-Man build to follow! I've seen a few Bantams with a convex firewall to help cover up the trans/scattershield and aid with the aero a bit. (I'm not talking' about the weird cowl extension style.)
     
  29. Baron
    Joined: Aug 13, 2004
    Posts: 3,360

    Baron
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

  30. Baron
    Joined: Aug 13, 2004
    Posts: 3,360

    Baron
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

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