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Hot Rods identifying small block fords

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Bill Rinaldi, Dec 8, 2015.

  1. Bill Rinaldi
    Joined: Mar 23, 2006
    Posts: 1,628

    Bill Rinaldi
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I'm in on a build that requires a 60's small block ford engine and auto. trans. The owner is looking at a small block but can't tell if it's 260, 289 or 302. Also it has an auto trans. How do you tell what trans it is? c4? Fordomatic? Being a GM guy, I'm familiar with small block Cheys and the pan shapes on GM auto. trans. But on Fords---not so much. We need a little hint here. BILL RINALDI
     
  2. Bill Rinaldi
    Joined: Mar 23, 2006
    Posts: 1,628

    Bill Rinaldi
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

  3. As I understand it, all 260's have a 5 bolt bell,,some early 289's also,,everything else has 6 bolt
    Don't know squat about slushbox trans.
     
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  4. I am no expert on them but I think if you look at the casting date on the engine it will let you know what size it is. The 289 came out in 63 I think and the 302 came out in 1968. I think the C4 has a removable bellhousing and the other auto trans does not. I may not know for sure, but at least this gives you a bump to the top.
     
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  5. Hnstray
    Joined: Aug 23, 2009
    Posts: 10,600

    Hnstray
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Quincy, IL

    C4 Cruiseomatic.jpg Bill, First thing to do is count the number of bolts that hold the bellhousing to the block. If it's 6 bolts, you have at least a 289. If it's 5 bolts, it could be a 221, 260 or 289. Now, that really narrows it down! :D

    As I recall, the 221,260 & 289 all have the same stroke. So, if all else fails, pull a head and measure the bore. I don't have the numbers at my finger tips, but they are readily available with a Google search.

    As for transmission, 221 and 260 had an aluminum Fordomatic. In '64 the 289 got a C4, also aluminum case and compact, but you can easily tell them apart by appearance (if you have pics) but also by the number of 'detents' in the shift arm on the the trans. The FOM = PRNDL......COM = PRND1D2L.

    Edit: added photo of C4 Cruiseomatic......wanted it at the bottom....you see were it ended up. Aluminum Fordomatic has shorter/smaller case.

    Ray
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2015
  6. Jalopy Joker
    Joined: Sep 3, 2006
    Posts: 23,062

    Jalopy Joker
    Member

  7. woodhawg
    Joined: Apr 11, 2009
    Posts: 1,010

    woodhawg
    Member
    1. S.F.C.C.

    The numbers tell all. Google is your friend. I found out mine was a 1981 302 with a C4 by searching numbers and pictures on google. By looking at the product it is hard to tell. Of course there are a lot smarter people on here than me. I am trying to figure out the best way the make this puppy make 350 HP and 350 torques
     
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  8. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 43,180

    squirrel
    Member

    C4AP or something similar will be at the beginning of the block casting "engineering" number....C means 1960s, D means 1970s, etc. 4 is 1964. The 6 bolt came out in 65, so if it's a C5 or later date, it's likely a 6 bolt block, eh? that would make it a 289 or 302.

    But it looks like they got you covered with links to sites with lots of helpful (hopefully not too confusing) info.
     
  9. pdq67
    Joined: Feb 12, 2007
    Posts: 787

    pdq67
    Member

    Fwiw, I bought a copy of :

    --------ULTIMATE
    AMERICAN V-8 ENGINE
    -------DATA BOOK
    --------1949-1974
    -by Peter C. Sessler
    -(MBI Publishing )

    that has more info about all the engines made in those years than you will care to know about.

    The only engines not complete are the (2) 400" Olds engines. The 3.870" b x 4.250" s = 400" and the 4.000" b x 3.975" s x 400". They only listed the 4.000" x 3.975" engine.

    You might find a copy somewhere if you look.

    pdq67
     
  10. Atwater Mike
    Joined: May 31, 2002
    Posts: 9,699

    Atwater Mike
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    ...but then, we have the Fordomatic 2 speed, then the FMX (3 speed) and the FMX center housing can be retroed to a Fordomatic for the 3rd range.
    Enter the venerable C6! Three forward speeds, large in size, but the 'Answer' to the Ford afficianados and their quest for a 3 speed automatic that may live thru the cycle and still not break the reverse band!
    Not my favorite choices, but I've used 'em... (C4 being the best of the lot, but behind a long-length 'sub-SBC', I usually pass...)
     
  11. Casting numbers will tell the story best; anything with a C2, C3, or C4 start in the casting number will be five bolt and can be either a 221 (C2, C3 only) or a 260/289. Another quick check is the bolt size holding the bellhousing on; the five bolt uses 3/8-16 bolts, the six bolt uses 7/16-14 bolts. All the six-bolt blocks are pretty much identical, with a just a few changes creeping in with the fox-body mustangs.

    Transmissions? Ford only offered 2-speeds behind these until '64, and only the '64 289 got a three-speed auto (C4); those are somewhat rare these days. None of the six-bolt motors got the 2-speeds, so if it's after '64 it'll be a C4 trans unless maybe if it's a truck application, which will be a C6. The cast-iron Cruisematic/FMX weren't used behind the small blocks until the 351W showed up.
     
  12. You can find the casting numbers for the block on the right side above where the starter mounts.
     
  13. 1930 A
    Joined: Apr 8, 2006
    Posts: 127

    1930 A
    Member

    Don't want to upset the applecart but C6 didn't come out until 1966 and only for big block, 390, etc. Cast iron cruiseomatic as used until 1966 and in 1967 the FMX was introduced.
     
  14. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 43,180

    squirrel
    Member

    later, they made a small V8 case for the C6. Used behind the Cleveland first, then behind the six and small block V8s in pickup trucks, etc.
     
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  15. Jalopy Joker
    Joined: Sep 3, 2006
    Posts: 23,062

    Jalopy Joker
    Member

  16. A 221 or 260 (except Tiger) will have 2 freeze plugs per block side. 289 and later (and Tiger 260) had 3 per side.

    Steve
     
  17. 65COMET
    Joined: Apr 10, 2007
    Posts: 3,086

    65COMET
    Member

    C-6 info is partially wrong.The C-6 was offered in Ford Vans behind Small block V-8s,I had three 75s and a 77 Ford E-150s with them!! I believe all FMX trans had an iron main case!6 bolt 289,302 and 351 motor mounts and bellhousings are the same,just to throw you a curve,some late 302-351s had a bigger flywheel/flexplate using a bigger bell ,but with same bolt pattern!! ROY
     
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  18. I'll try to clarify Ford automatics a bit.....

    Ford built basically four automatics from the start of production in the early 50s until '79. Where it gets confusing is Ford used the same name on different trans, and different names on more-or-less the same trans. The early Fordomatics (through '58) were all three speeds, but low could only be selected by either pulling the trans into low or hammering the throttle off the line. Normally, they started out in second gear if 'D' was selected. The Cruisomatic was an 'upgraded' Fordomatic that offered better use/selection of low gear. These then became the FX, MX and FMX before eventually morphing into the AOD in '79. All had iron transmission cases with removable bellhousings/tailshafts (cast iron on early units, aluminum later) and were factory installed behind pretty much all Ford motors at one time or another except for the five-bolt small block V8s (and later 289/302 motors), the 429/460s, and the early 'modern' sixes (144 through 200). After '67, this became Ford's 'medium duty' automatic.

    In '59 Ford came out with it's first (and only) true two speed automatic, again called the Fordomatic. A Light duty unit and initially used behind sixes and Y-blocks, it was the only automatic transmission used behind the five-bolt small blocks (except for the '64-only 289) and 60-65 Falcon/Comet/Mustang sixes. This one has a one-piece aluminum case with a integral bellhousing so there's little difficulty in identifying it. It was never used behind the FE motors. It was discontinued in '65.

    The C4 first appeared in '64 (behind the 289 and the only five-bolt-block application) and by '66 had replaced the two-speed Fordomatic as Fords' light-duty' automatic. Featuring a removable bellhousing and aluminum case, it was factory installed behind all 289/302 motors (but not the 351; they got the medium-duty FMX) and sixes. All other V8s got either the FMX or (starting in '66) the C6.

    The C6 appeared in '66, becoming Fords 'heavy duty' automatic. Generally only installed in full-size cars with over 400 cubic inches and trucks/vans. The smaller cars only got these if optioned with a 'hi-po' motor (GT, CJ, etc), otherwise the FMX was used. The only other Ford automatic transmission to have an integral bellhousing with an aluminum case at the time, these came with five bell patterns over the course of production; initially the FE and MEL for the '66-68 Lincolns (rare), then the 429/460 pattern, and finally the small block V8/six. There was also a diesel version, but that doesn't fit any gas motor. Considerably larger than the two speed Fordomatic, it can't be mistaken for any other early Ford automatic.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2015
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  19. town sedan
    Joined: Aug 18, 2011
    Posts: 1,067

    town sedan
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Steve, thank you for taking the time to post your information. Got to love Ford. A better idea every day of the week and they tried to use them all.
    -Dave
     
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  20. Steve, just a comment about the diesel version, that bellhousing pattern looks similar and close to the 429/460 version. I am sure you know this, but for others, just be careful to ensure the exact use before trading money.
     
  21. BamaMav
    Joined: Jun 19, 2011
    Posts: 3,244

    BamaMav
    Member
    from Berry, AL

    And to add to Crazy Steve's excellent post, there are two versions of the 6 bolt C4- case fill and pan fill, called by some a C5. Case fill has the dipstick in the top part of the case and the bell bolts to the pump housing. It takes a small flexplate. The Pan fill has the dispstick going into a bung on the pan, and the bell bolts outboard of the pump. The bells are not interchangable as far as I know. The pan fill takes the same larger flexplate that the later AOD series takes.

    And the 351 Windsor did indeed come with a C4. I parted out a 77 Granada that was 351 Windsor /pan fill C4 from the factory. One owner car I bought from original owner after his son wrecked it.
    351 Cleveland and 351/400 M engines are the ones that only came with the FMX.
     
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  22. Johnboy34
    Joined: Jul 12, 2011
    Posts: 1,060

    Johnboy34
    Member
    from Seattle,Wa

    Weren't the early C4 tranies called cruisamatic? The ones you could start out in low, shift to 2nd and after it shifted slam it back to low;) for a manual type shift. I know the later C4 select shift valve body could be switched into them, just had to change shifter detents.
     
  23. Yeah, I forgot about the Granada/Monarch/Versailles. They were badly de-tuned by that point, and Ford offered the 351W for just two years ('76-77) in these. The FMX was too large to fit, so these were fitted with the C4; the only factory use of a C4 behind anything bigger than the 302.
     
  24. falcongeorge
    Joined: Aug 26, 2010
    Posts: 18,341

    falcongeorge
    Member
    from BC

    I have one of these I am trying to sell, without much success...:rolleyes:
     
  25. All of the three-detent, three speed automatics were called 'cruisamatic' until '68 IIRC, when the 'select shift' name took over and Ford had gone to a 1-2-Drive valve body across the board rather than the L-D1-D2. Yes, different valve body configurations were used. The one oddball was Ford continued building the early three-speed Fordomatic for a few years (the Lo-Drive only version) and marketed it as a two speed so customers would step up to the higher-cost 'cruisamatic'....
     
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  26. falcongeorge
    Joined: Aug 26, 2010
    Posts: 18,341

    falcongeorge
    Member
    from BC

    '64\'66 C-4 "cruise-o-matic" are the reviled "green-dot" valve bodies.
     
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  27. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 43,180

    squirrel
    Member

    fords make my head hurt....chevys are so easy!
     
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  28. doyoulikesleds
    Joined: Jul 12, 2014
    Posts: 226

    doyoulikesleds

    the c4 came behind a 351c 2v in a 73 torino
     
  29. 58custom
    Joined: Jan 1, 2009
    Posts: 398

    58custom
    Member

    Not true. 1972-74 fordor Torinos and Montegos used C4s behind H-code 351Cs. The C4 was also used behind 351Ms in the same cars and LTDII. The fordor cars expected to be light-duty. I had a 1973 Montego with an H code and C4, factory. Bkroke two of them and then swapped in a Toploader. I pulled and sold several big block C4 bellhousings from behind the 351M (same bell pattern as 400, 429, 460). They still bring bucks if you can find them. Of course, the C6 was used behind the 71-74 Q-code 351C Cobra-Jet with the small diameter, high stall converter. C6s were also used behind the M-code 351C and also H code 351Cs in heavier duty apps like the station wagon. The 400 got C6s. The FMX was tossed around as well, had one factory in an H code Ranchero GT. Only way to tell what auto trans was in an intermediate Fomoco is to look at the door tag or look under the car.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2015
  30. falcongeorge
    Joined: Aug 26, 2010
    Posts: 18,341

    falcongeorge
    Member
    from BC

    This was at the 2013 Ocean park show, I did a whole thread of HAMB friendly cars, but didn't post this. Thought this was one of the coolest cars in the whole show, Torino with a 351CJ and a factory toploader! Only one I have ever seen. It'll probably get deleted, and that's ok, just figured its cool as hell, and this seems like a good place to post it. I have a real soft spot for totally off the wall factory ford muscle. I have a nice complete 351CJ core stashed under my deck right now.;)
    ocean park 2013 059 resize.jpg

    ocean park 2013 058 resize.jpg
     
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