Well, I took my car to the speedshop today for the dyno tune. Things didn't go so well. After about 5 pulls, it was obvious something wasn't right, the best she could muster was 354HP and 358 ft/lb at the wheels. We tried EVERYTHING to get the power where it should be, with no luck. So, we got checking, and decided to give it a leakdown test. The stupid fucker was LEAKING 55-65% on all 8 cylinders. It's a 406 SBC, and When I freshened it I went with Total Seal gapless top rings. The cylinders were honed per their instructions (280 grit flex-hone), cleaned until a white rag sprayed with WD-40 stayed white, the rings were all file fit with an actual "ring filer" (not a hand file), and then the totalseal "Quick-Seat" powder was applied, also per their directions. The motor was filled with SAE30, and run for about 25-30 minutes at varying speeds in park. I then drove it for about 50-60 miles at varying speeds, and changed the oil. It seemed to run OK, but not as good as I'd like. The leakdown test told me why! SO, I got talking to everyone at the speedshop, and they got on the phone with people, and as it turns out, I'm the worlds biggest sucker for buying the gapless rings. NOBODY that I talked to today had ANYTHING good to say about them. They all said "I could never get those fuckers to seal!". Sounds familiar huh? I ordered some new rings (Just your basic Sealed Power moly rings) and intake gaskets, and it seems Thursday night, and/or Staurday morning were gonna thrash on my car to get it re-ringed, and then Dave [Henninger], the dyno guy, will run it on the dyno again while I'm in Vegas next week. In theory, I will return to find my car tuned to perfection and ready for me to abuse!!!
man, i feel your pain... but i try not to get too upset, as i really hate breaking my own belongings.... this is what we do, shit happens. just think, youll be whipping doughnuts in the Gay Michigan Nova soon enough.. lets get some pics when youre done, eh?
I can relate, Bro...bought a fresh engine with those rings in it maybe 15 years ago and dumped it in the trash (only a small block Chevy, no loss!) and replaced it with a hig mileage 305 with bolt on parts that ran perfect! You oughtta be happier with the "regular" rings in there... Ain't no thang, it's still a kick ass Machine, Dude!
[ QUOTE ] I will return to find my car tuned to perfection and ready for me to abuse!!! [/ QUOTE ] Um...yeah, sure.
I heard from a guy who spends his life building hi-po stuff for people not to use Total Seal's. He says that they cause the top ring to flutter off of it's seat and loose compression. He had an explanation, but I don't remember what it was. Sounded good though, I remember that much. -Jeff
EEEEK!! I feel your pain bro. Last time I was down on power I did a compression test to find that #3 & #5 were real low on compression. Seems the holes in the tops of the pistons caused by improper nitrous tuning were causing substancial blowby! Seems like its in good hands now.
Yeah, thanks for all of the encouraging words guys, but it just seems like for every step forward in this process I get to take about 62 billion back! I'm sure everything will work out in the end, it's just one thing I didn't want to have to fuck with right now. Between trying to raise 2 kids and trying to run a business, it doesn'e leave a whole lot of time or money for these little "setbacks"! Although, I guess if it does 350 HP and TQ with 60% blowby, it oughtta scream once we get those rings sealed up and actually get to tune the bitch!
And this ladies and gentleman is why I have a punching bag hanging in my garage. I'm sure you'll get it worked out, but the frustration sure can be a bitch. -Dane
I'll be taking EVERONE for rides once it's running right, but there's only 2 seats, so it might be a squeeze!
wow, and i wondered why i didn't get a call telling me how many horsies the chevy II made.....when i saw the title of the post i thought that you blew the motor or something. atleast it's a fixable problem....shoulda bought a ford!!! haha lemme know when you want me to come over and lend a hand.
Live and learn--I also used TOTAL SEAL a few years ago and had 60 per cent on leak down after only 800 miles. This was a complete fresh machined block , all but one cylinder had gaps lined up as if they had been installed that way. Built a 327 sbc for a friend that would not let me talk him out of using Total Seal, same thing again after 400 miles. TOTAL SHIT Used ring filer and correct wall prep in both engines. Go with moly and enjoy new found power and piece of mind.
[ QUOTE ] and then the totalseal "Quick-Seat" powder was applied, also per their directions. [/ QUOTE ] you mean borax?
Look at the bright side... By the time it's back together you'll have the SBC head bolt torque sequence memorized!
I had the same problems that you had. I talked to the ring company tech guy for a hour and sent them my bad rings. He convinced me to use the Total Seal rings again. I did the hone deal as per instructions and used non-detergent oil. I also put a new vent on the pan and didn't hit the dyno like I did the first time. I also switched to synthetic oil much to soon with the first set of rings. I've now got 500 miles on the new rings with the non-detergent oil but the motor is smoking a little bit. I'm going to give them benefeit of the doubt and keep breaking them in like the instructions say. The smoking may also be caused by some other special factors in my motor, so I'm not completely sure that it's the rings yet.
Sorry to hear about your troubles Steve......but it sounds like your back on course.....save this little story for your memoirs.....you be able to look back and laugh like the rest of us who have shared the same struggles with our own rides over the years!!....can't wait to see (and hear) this beast this summer!!
Alright guys, After sleeping on it, and calming down a little, I got thinking (Uh-Oh!) Should I really thrash to get this hunkashit fixed before I go to Vegas? Or should I just let it slide til I'm home? It would be Awesome to get it done, have the tuning done while I'm gone. That way I could have a driveable car as soon as I get back. BUT... My MAIN concern, is that with the way my luck goes, We'll thrash to get it done, and either fuck something up, or forget to do something because we're in such a hurry, and then it'll have to wait til I get back anyway. I'm also thinking "Do I really want to beat myself up right before I go on Vacation, or should I just chill and try to get rested up?" AND... I barely have enough time for my 2 daughters and my "baby momma" as is, to I really want to ignore them for the last couple days before I leave them for a week??? What do you guys think???
Drive it to Cleveland and back and see if they seat, then worry about it. You might just not have enough miles on it.
[ QUOTE ] Alright guys, After sleeping on it, and calming down a little, I got thinking (Uh-Oh!) Should I really thrash to get this hunkashit fixed before I go to Vegas? Or should I just let it slide til I'm home? It would be Awesome to get it done, have the tuning done while I'm gone. That way I could have a driveable car as soon as I get back. BUT... My MAIN concern, is that with the way my luck goes, We'll thrash to get it done, and either fuck something up, or forget to do something because we're in such a hurry, and then it'll have to wait til I get back anyway. I'm also thinking "Do I really want to beat myself up right before I go on Vacation, or should I just chill and try to get rested up?" AND... I barely have enough time for my 2 daughters and my "baby momma" as is, to I really want to ignore them for the last couple days before I leave them for a week??? What do you guys think??? [/ QUOTE ] i think you answered your own question let it sit until you get back.
Hey man that's all part of the game, especially when your going for speed. I know it's frustrating, but relax I'm sure it's gona run like raped ape once it's back together. I used a set of gapless rings where just the second ring was gapless, didn't have a problem with it. This was like 10 years ago but, I sprayed the hell out of that engine (351W) with a big shot and use to drive it 70 miles a day to work and back and never had a problem, of course I never had it on a dyno either.
Don't sweat the small stuff bro......take care of the important stuff.....hang out with the family!!...and have a great trip!!
Whatever you decide, let me know if you need any help. If needed, I am sure me, kritz, and flatheadpete can drive the hell out of it to try to seat the existing rings. Cheer up, I think at one time or another, every one of us has gone thru the same sort of shit, it just happens to be your turn. Things will work out just fine, and you will be back on the road in no time. BTW- have a good time in vegas!
Don't want to piss anybody off but I think I heard you put gapless rings in the top groove, and it won't seal? And it never will,--- gapless rings only go in the second groove-- If I missed something here then tell me.--TV
Talked to my friend that likes them .He clams need time to seat, hope so.I consider him pretty knowledgeable.Did you call tech?
TV: I went with the Total Seal "Max Seal" series, which are gapless TOP rings. They found that with gapless 2nd rings the area between the top and 2nd rings gets pressurized and causes top ring flutter. The Gapless top/ conventional 2nd is supposedd to prevent that and keep even more pressure in the cylinder. Flatdog: According to their "tech". with the cylinder wall finish I used and using their "quick seat" powder, the rings should have been fully seated in less than 5 minutes after firing it.
bummer.for what those rings cost that really sucks.from all the stories ive heard in the past i would steer clear of them.ive only talked to one racer that used to sware by them.he clamied small power increases.proved by lots of dyno time,and ive seen his cars go fast,but just about everyone else has had problems. hope she does good next time around. eric
My only expereince with Total Seal rings was in my VW. Used the Total Seal as a 2nd ring with conventional Top and Oil Control Rings. Motor was built in '84 and put out around 160hp out of 1776cc. Never had problems with the rings but it took me a while to get the valve train worked out. I also had to change to a fan belt off a Renault or something 'cuz when I powershifted into 2nd, the centrifugal force was enough that the VW fan belt would expand and pop off the pulleys. I'd hear this whirring sound and then the Generator light would come one. The Renault one was a little smaller so it rode deeper in the pulleys.
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