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Hydraulic clutch set up. Advice please.

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Paul Y, Aug 20, 2008.

  1. Paul Y
    Joined: Dec 29, 2006
    Posts: 633

    Paul Y
    Member

    I am going to install a manual box into my 56 PU and think the easiest way to do this is by the use of a hydraulic set up.

    Car has a Camaro subframe, not sure if that makes any differance or not to be honest but it has.

    I have the manual pedal box out of a Camaro, at presant the PU has fitted a auto pedal box out of a Camaro.

    The gearbox is a T10.

    So my question is, what components do I need and has anyone done a swap like this and can provide some pointers?

    Or.... Would it be easier to use a cable set up like that from a Mk4 cortina?

    Any help or advice greatfully received.

    P.[​IMG]
    <!-- / message --><!-- sig -->
     
  2. blackout
    Joined: Jul 29, 2007
    Posts: 1,269

    blackout
    Member

    What bellhousing do you have?
     
  3. Paul Y
    Joined: Dec 29, 2006
    Posts: 633

    Paul Y
    Member

    Standard Aluminium one, no provision for a slave cylinder as it stands at the moment.

    P.
     
  4. blackout
    Joined: Jul 29, 2007
    Posts: 1,269

    blackout
    Member

    I have built a bracket, attached to the engine block to support an external slave. Do you have a master for the clutch? Determine the diameter of the clutch master piston. You will be paying some attention to the relationship of the diameters of the clutch and slave for pedal effort. You want about 1" travel in the slave.
     

  5. Paul Y
    Joined: Dec 29, 2006
    Posts: 633

    Paul Y
    Member

    I have none of the hydraulic components at the moment as I noted from research that they have to be matched, just was not sure what that match had to be.

    Any pointers on the components you used and dimensions for the bracket you built?

    Thanks

    P.
     
  6. blackout
    Joined: Jul 29, 2007
    Posts: 1,269

    blackout
    Member

    The bracket is triangulated. Mounts to the threaded boss in the block that was used for the Z-bar pivot ball and the bellhousing hole. Then your pushrod lines up with the clutch fork. Speedway sells a 7/8" diameter push slave that works well. It has 2 mounting tabs for 3/8" bolts, make a pushrod from a hardend 3/8" bolt.

    The relationship of master diameter to slave diameter...a larger master creates more pressure with less travel, easier pedal...a smaller master creates less pressure with more travel and harder pedal. Disclaimer I may not be correct on these cylinder relationships, experts please confirm/correct.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2008
  7. MFP2241
    Joined: Aug 8, 2008
    Posts: 27

    MFP2241
    Member

    Last edited: Aug 20, 2008
  8. Lee Martin
    Joined: Jun 17, 2005
    Posts: 740

    Lee Martin
    Member

    Are you talking about a slave cylinder and fork combination or are you going with a hydraulic throwout bearing?

    -Lee
    Atomic Radio
    www.atomicpinup.com
     
  9. fab32
    Joined: May 14, 2002
    Posts: 13,985

    fab32
    Member Emeritus

    The relationship of master diameter to slave diameter...a larger master creates more pressure with less travel, easier pedal...a smaller master creates less pressure with more travel and harder pedal. Disclaimer I may not be correct on these cylinder relationships, experts please confirm/correct.[/quote]

    You have the relationship reversed.
    The larger master will create less pressure but more travel. The smaller master will create more pressure and less travel.

    Frank
     
  10. Paul Y
    Joined: Dec 29, 2006
    Posts: 633

    Paul Y
    Member

    I do not want to use a hydraulic throw out bearing, I want to use a slave cylinder and clutch fork set up.

    As for the relationship of the cylinders to each other what would be the recomendation for either?

    Getting a bit confused....

    (not that difficult really....)

    P.:D
     
  11. blackout
    Joined: Jul 29, 2007
    Posts: 1,269

    blackout
    Member

    I used a 1 1/8" dia. master, and a 1" slave that has 1.25" travel. I have also used a 7/8ths slave with the 1 1/8" master on other cars. The pedal is kind of stiff on those combinations, but the pedals themselves are cut down and altered. You will have room for full length pedals in the truck, so the adittional leverage will make it easier to depress the pedal.

    I have another car with a 15/16ths master, with a 1" slave. Stock pedal. The pedal is effortless to depress.
     
  12. fab32
    Joined: May 14, 2002
    Posts: 13,985

    fab32
    Member Emeritus

    I have another car with a 15/16ths master, with a 1" slave. Stock pedal. The pedal is effortless to depress.[/quote]

    You've just proved what I stated in my above post. When properly proportioned a hydraulic setup is effortless and very effective. Just eliminating the hassle of getting the mechanical system to work makes them worthwhile.

    Frank
     
  13. Paul Y
    Joined: Dec 29, 2006
    Posts: 633

    Paul Y
    Member

    Thanks for the information, as my wife wants to drive the PU and she cant drive an Auto I will go for the effortless option!

    Could you tell me what the master and slave came from for this option or where you purchased them?

    Thanks again,

    P.
     
  14. blackout
    Joined: Jul 29, 2007
    Posts: 1,269

    blackout
    Member

    Master is Tilton. Slave is C-4 Corvette.
     
  15. Paul Y
    Joined: Dec 29, 2006
    Posts: 633

    Paul Y
    Member

    Thank you Sir!

    The HAMB comes to the rescue once again.

    Owe you a beer if you are ever in London.

    P.
     
  16. Paul Y
    Joined: Dec 29, 2006
    Posts: 633

    Paul Y
    Member

    That looks very nice and neat.

    I was considering using the clutch cable from a Ford Cortina (small family car of the mid 80's) but could not figure out in my head how to do it.

    Looks like you have just answered that question!

    Thanks

    P.
     
  17. Snarl
    Joined: Feb 16, 2007
    Posts: 1,639

    Snarl
    Member

    Why can't you use the stock '56 pedal setup?? the fork angle should be the same, and the overall position of the fork end should be near the stock location, even with the subframing??

    Assuming the pedal assembly is going to stay under the floor...
     
  18. RichardW
    Joined: Dec 9, 2007
    Posts: 84

    RichardW
    Member

    I am using the Wilwood master and slave cylinder on a sbc. It has worked great for almost 50K miles. It is a pull cylinder that is attached to a stock fork.
     
  19. Good Wood
    Joined: Apr 17, 2006
    Posts: 608

    Good Wood
    Member
    from pa

    There's a good article in the November Rod & Custom about fabbing a hydraulic system.
     
  20. Drive Em
    Joined: Aug 25, 2006
    Posts: 1,748

    Drive Em
    Member

    That is a circle track style bearing that will not work on a 10 or 10 1/2" clutch. You will need the Howe throw out bearing.
     
  21. the guys over at pirate 4x4 build some pretty neat setups check them out.
     
  22. JohnEvans
    Joined: Apr 13, 2008
    Posts: 4,883

    JohnEvans
    Member
    from Phoenix AZ

    My T has 1&1/8 MC and a 1&1/16 slave both stock Chevy PU sizes. 10.4 crown HD diaphram clutch. Wonderful progressive feel and about a medium effort. Slicker 'en snake snot !
     
  23. Paul Y
    Joined: Dec 29, 2006
    Posts: 633

    Paul Y
    Member

    A quick update.

    After trawling the web I came across this great explanation of the ratio between master cylinder and slave cylinder and the effects changing one has on the other.

    Hydraulic Multiplication:

    The ratio of the piston sizes (in&#178;) Slave:Master is what determines the mechanical advantage (softness of pedal) in the system. So that if you have a &#189;" master and a 1" slave, 10lbs of force on the master piston will produce 40lbs of force in the slave. (It is a ratio of the squares of the radii: sr&#178;/mr&#178; = .5&#178;/.25&#178; = 4)

    Volume (in&#178;*in) of fluid moved will determine the throw and is the inverse of the above ratio. So in the scenario above, 2" of piston travel in the master will produce .5" of travel in the slave.

    So. Now all I have to work out is what it the distance required to fully disengage the clutch on a SBC with a T10.

    Anybody know what this distance is as I do not have all the parts to do my swap over yet and would like to have them all here before I start as the PU is rapidly becoming my daily driver.

    P.
     
  24. JohnEvans
    Joined: Apr 13, 2008
    Posts: 4,883

    JohnEvans
    Member
    from Phoenix AZ

    My dogs can't push the clutch pedal down while I lay a ruler on the travel of the release arm, but going by my setup I would say at least 1 inch. I have found over the years of pushing parts and using hyd clutch release systems, most have very near equal M/C and slave cylinder bores. So what ever size M/C you are using go for a very close sized slave. As long as both bores are near equal pedal effort will not change no matter if both bores in each set are 3/4 or 1&1/4, as you are not changing the ratio between master and slave.
     
  25. fstfish66
    Joined: May 28, 2005
    Posts: 376

    fstfish66
    Member
    from eastern pa

    i am currently in the middle of converting from a tilton hyd bearing to a fork and puller slave cyl,,i am having trouble getting the slave to travel more the 7/8 of an inch,,all tho this may be enough to disengauge the pressure plate,,ide like a ful inch of travel

    im using a CNC puller slave i bought at speed way and a 3/4 bore master with i 3/32 stroke,,,

    after talking to CNC finally they are telling me i need a master with 1 1/2 inch of travel,,there slave has 1 1/8 total travel,speed way was advertiseong it at ALMOST 1 1/2 inch of travel,, till i got them involved in all this,,,neither company CNC the maker of the slave or speed way has complete info on this,, and no instructions or specs with the slave,

    so speed way is going to ship me a master, but wont charge me shipping or charge me for the _ an fittings,,see how it works out :cool:
     
  26. I'm using this on my F100, with a 12" '60-'72 chevy truck aluminum bellhousing
    (GM#: 6263756):

    http://www.novak-adapt.com/catalog/kit_hcrc.htm

    [​IMG]


    You don't have to use all their parts- rockauto.com has just everything else very reasonable.
    But by the time you make the pattern for the bracket and pay someone to laser cut it, you could pay for the entire matched kit from Novak.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2008
  27. Scott
    Joined: Dec 23, 2004
    Posts: 2,715

    Scott
    Member

    I am using that setup. I kind of cobbled it together. It would be much easier to by the whole setup from one place after you figure all the shipping and waiting.
    By the way, I am using the 7/8 Jeep slave with a 62 truck master with a 1-1/8 bore. Works fine.
     
  28. fstfish66
    Joined: May 28, 2005
    Posts: 376

    fstfish66
    Member
    from eastern pa

    nice kit,thanks for posting ,some intresting and valueable info on that site,, :cool:
     
  29. Geoffav
    Joined: Aug 30, 2008
    Posts: 18

    Geoffav
    Member

    Awesome, this thread made my day. I can't seem to search fast enough here, great info so far. :cool:
     
  30. I'm surprised that no one has suggested a complete factory setup out of an early 60's chevy / GMC truck. It is the dual master setup, but would work fine on a single master and it moves the slave and throwout to the pass side where there is more room. Now I'm assuming that he is using a SBC as he didn't say what engine and this setup won't be in any Great Britain junkyards, but they are common at swapmeets here and cheap. I've build a few and they are simple.
    Also .....why the hydraulic?? I've also built a 51 F1 with SBC and muncie and just a mod to the Ford cross shaft allowed a mechanical clutch linkage that was smooth and easy push. My lady drove it with no complaints. Was all the stock Ford pedals and such but that is still in junkyards here.
     

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