Technical How do I get a nice rake on a '47 Plymouth

Long time reader, first time questioner. There is a Picture of a '40 Ford that pops up from time to time.



I really like the stance of this car. Did they get the Ford stance just by big-little tire combo? Guessing 16" to 15" rims 7.60-15 in back, 5.60-15 front? Do you think the springs were played with, or dropped axle? I would like my '47 Plymouth to sit like this. Is there a way to do this without doing Fatman drop spindles and a disk brake conversion, or clipping? I really would like to use what is there with hopefully simple modifications.



I am planning on rebuilding my front end this spring/summer in the process of getting all the parts needed. It has a terrible pull to the left, looks like a bend tie rod sleeve (Long Pass. Side), bad ball joints, plus a leaking steering box. I have read threads here on the HAMB and the P15-D24 forum about this topic. I have not found a good before and after results, I was looking for. I do know to I need to relocate the front shocks. My dad got "Sea Sick" the first time going around town with the car last summer.

I have bought the stock front end rebuild components, F-1 upper shock mounts, and a steering box rebuild kit already. I have read some guys play around with the front springs. Some have used Aerostar springs with luck some not. Eaton springs have been mentioned but don't know 1" or 2" shorter? Rear Air shocks? Not sure what to do?

I'd like keep my drums, the car stops nice right now. I plan on keeping it a 6-cylinder. Don't want to do drop spindle and disks. I have 6.00-16 all the way around right now. Don't really want to buy 15" rims if I don't have too. Would be willing to get different tires and sizes, if that's what it would take? Thanks for any suggestions!

 

You have to pay to play. If you want your car to sit like that 40 there’s work involved.

 

Don’t be cryptic. Change the title to How do I drop the front of a 47 Plymouth?

 

you can probably do the rear with lowering blocks and longer U bolts. The front will probably get pretty involved. If you want the tires to tuck up into the fenders like that, with smaller tires, then you'll need to lower the front about 4 inches. Look at how much suspension travel it has now....if it were that much lower, how much travel would it have? probably not much. So, just cutting the springs and using smaller tires probably won't get you there.

But then again, I think that 40 sits a bit too low in front. What do I know?

 

Thank you for the info that was what I was wondering.

I am just curious to what people were doing to '42-'48/'49 Plymouth's before bolt on components were the goto option. I know Plymouths were not as popular as the others, but most photos I have seen they are level or ass dragger customs. A couple straight axle ones. Not very many nice raked ones from back in the day.

 

There is a mod that relocates the spring seat from the top to the bottom of the lower a-frame

Good for about 2 inches. A search at P15-D24 should turn up the details. Use Googles search on the site as it works much better than the sites internal search.

Aerostar springs seem to have mixed results.

 

I went for a "rubber rake" with my '50 Dodge and was happy with the results...

 

@KenC Yes, I read about the spring seat relocation on the P15-D24 forum. Also there is a video by the California POC:



I have not hear how happy anyone has been with the end results.

 

What size tire did you end up using?

 

Just remember to keep an eye on suspension travel, with whatever method you use. Driving a car that bottoms out all the time isn't quite as fun as it's cracked up to be.

 

Thanks for the words of wisdom. @squirrel if it were your car how would you set it up? I am interested in learning not trying to be sarcastic.

 

Back in the Day We just used Tire's
Small in the Front & Big in Rear.!
I ran 7:10 tires in the front & 850:15 in the Rear

Just my 3.5 cents

Live learn & die a fool

 

You might be able to find dropped (actually raised) uprights for your car. They used to flip the original uprights which changes the geometry and necessitates some heating and bending. Full suspension travel is retained.

 

Be careful with rubber rake, shorty sidewalls look out of place on an other wise era correct build. Need some sidewall height and suspension mods to pull this off and make it look right.

Or you can just lower the fenders and running boards

 

I agree with everything you are saying. I have been think about a 1" or 2" shorter Eaton coil and 6.00-16 in front and 6.50-16 or 7.50 -16 in back. I am not sure how crazy I should get? I don't have a lot of experience with MoPars of this era. @indyjps How would you set the car up if it were yours? I am curious to know what others would do?

 

I have drop spindles on my -48 Dodge,and drum brakes.No need for disk brakes.

 

Very Nice! Did you make them? The Fatman drop spindles require disk brakes.

 

The only thing I know is that they are made in USA.

 

"Back in the day" the back lowered was the way to go. Stance of that ford is more modern. 'course, depends on what back in the day means to each of us.

Ben

 

I don't know the front suspension on these cars first hand. @squirrel was spot on in his post. Look at the overall suspension travel and see if the amount of drop can be accomplished with a spring change. If not other things need to change. Drop spindles, z the frame, move suspension crossmember up in the frame ( basically double z the crossmember that holds all suspension up in the frame., this keeps all body attachments in the same place and just moves the suspension up, pretty effective drop that keeps stock geometry, need to mod the steering shaft to steering box)

That depends if you want to keep stock suspension layout. Please investigate all options before looking at must*ng 2 rack and pinion conversions - they don't always work great and cost a lot.

Tire size. Look at similar builds, what side wall height looks right. Big and little, equal sidewall, what sidewall height in inches. Plan for that sidewall height in your front suspension, may take wheel offset changes on the front to clear the fender on a dropped car and allow for full wheel travel.

I'm talking in general terms cause you asked for feedback, guys that know these front suspensions well, can give better specifics on what changes will allow the drop you're looking for.

 

Thank you very much for giving me more info to think about. I would sell the car before I would putting a MII Front on this car. Not even considered. I want to work with what is there, using the stock geometry and components that can be used.

Also, I don't want it to look like a High School kids first ride, Hi-Jacker Air shocks and Shackles either.

The picture of the Ford, in the beginning, is just an example. Maybe trying to imitate for same rake angle but midwest appropriate height and done with HAMB friendly technics and parts would be great. The car feels like its nose high ready to launch to the moon driving it. Figured since I need to rebuild the front end. Would try to get it sitting cool while in there.

Everyone, Thank you for the ideas and tips, please keep them coming!

 

I'm prepared to have doubters about how the mainly California rakes came from. I'm not saying it's true . . . but . . . part of it came from putting bigger tires on the rear in search of higher speed and/or more traction. And another cause was that hotrodders were dumping heavier OHV V-8s in cars that previously had lighter engines. Then everyone had to follow the trend-setters without really needing the solutions.

 

The old school method was to cut the springs. On my '46 we cut one coil which got it out out the nose-bleed stance and rode well. One consideration is the ground clearance as the engine sits pretty low. I could have gone lower with shorter tires. The other upgrades to a larger diameter sway bar and relocated shocks worked well to make it drive very good.

 

Thank you for sharing, your car sits nice! Sounds like you experienced what I'm talking about. I will keep that in mind about the engine. What tire size are you running?

 

The tires were 205/75/15 front, 225/75/15 rear, 6” rims front, 7” rear, stock Plymouth centers. Probably should have done a little shorter and narrower as the rears needed 1/4”spacers.

 

Park you car on a level surface and get out a tape measure.

The 1st measurement should be between the the control arm, and the lower rubber bump stop. You need at least 2" of clearance between the lower control arm and the bump stop for normal driving on fairly smooth roads, rough roads should probably have 2.5" -3" of clearance. While you under the car looking, grab something and start pulling the car down and bounce it a bit. You will know how much clearance you will need for suspension travel (you only need to measure the lowest point of travel). A car that rides on the bump stops is a rough riding car, and is not fun, but a car that might hit the bump stops on really rough roads might be ok. Once you know how much clearance you need and how much excess you have, you will know what you can do. I suspect you maybe have 2" to 3" max you can drop the front suspension before you hit the bump stops on rough roads.

If you are rebuilding your front suspension, you will have the coil springs out anyway, put in the new Aerostar springs (your springs are probably about shot anyway), those guys have a pretty good idea what they are doing, a 1" drop spring nearly always means a 1" drop from the level of the original spring height in the car. Look up what your original free spring height was (the original length), and compare it to the free standing height (the current length) of the springs you removed from your car. Your current coil springs may already have 1" of drop because of old age, so 1" drop new springs will put the height back where it is now. Adjust accordingly.

Moving the spring perch on the lower control arms will give you an additional 1" to a 1.5" drop regardless of what ever spring drop you have from the springs.

If you have a 2" (total) suspension drop, that would lower the highest point on your front fender wheel arch 2". If the front drops, and nothing is change on the rear, the back bumper will rise quite a bit. A 2" drop at the front fenders may lift the rear bumper 4"-6". You can determine that without changing anything on your car. With the car on level ground at current ride height, measure the height of the center of the wheel arch on your front fender. Then jack the front end up, removing both tires, and lowering the jack to achieve the correct measurement of the front fender (minus the amount of your suspension drop). Step back and look at the rake your car should have.

Buy the springs you need, and move the spring pocket if need be, to get the rake you are after.

If you want more rake then the suspension will allow, you need to get the rest from tire height differences. You should use the tire diameter to determine the differences in the tire heights, often times the size of the wheel doesn't make much difference. When you get the diameter differences you want, then find the tire size and wheel diameter you need to get that difference. Also note, different tire manufactures tend to measure their tires differently then a different manufacturer might. Compare diameters from the same tire company.

What I would do has nothing to do with what you want to do, but my 48 Plymouth coupe has a pretty big nose down rake. You may not be able to achieve the rake my car has by doing what you want to do. Gene

 

@gene-koning Thank you very much for the awesome tips! This will help a lot.

 

You got all the good guys input already for the question.
As always, Gene has a bunch of information.
I have nothing more to add on HOW to lower your car, except that you will not be able to get that much drop with stock parts.
I want you to focus on something that will help visualize how much that Ford has been dropped due to suspension and compare it to other cars in person or in pictures. This will ignore tire and wheel size, since that is something that needs to be sized to the fender opening. Note where the center of the wheel (spindle) is in relation to the running board and the bottom line of the fender. That Ford is heavily dropped! A solid axle allows this much easier than IFS.
Look at a bunch of rods and compare the spindle height, you'll find a new way to judge stance.

 

Thank you @RodStRace , for new perspective. Maybe the question is not, how to lower the front, but how to raise the ass up? I know the odd look it has to due with the rear fender wheel opening. I don't want to arch the rear fender opening full like a Ford, because I have the Dodge rear fender trim I want to dress the plain rear fenders. I guess just a little more rear wheel showing?

Maybe father does know best!? My dad's solution to get a nice rake is, "Throw some station wagon springs back there, that'll make it sit up!"

 

You can try raising the rear some with a jack in the driveway, but that Ford is lowered in the rear too.
The Plymouth frame has a big dip in the middle that will (along with the engine) limit the drop.
As Gene said, a tape measure will answer a lot of questions about how much it can drop. A modified upright is the best way to go, since suspension geometry and spring rate are not affected, but requires a high quality part and making sure brakes and steering are Fitted and tuned properly.
Plymouth cars are bigger than the Fords, and really need a bigger wheel/tire combo to 'fill' the opening unless you are going for a custom or lowrider look.