Hot Rods How do I adapt a S-10-type T-15 (5-speed) to a standard dimension Chevy bell-housing?

Or can I? I have a T-5 from a Chevy Astro Van hanging on a standard cast-iron bell-housing in my 1972 C-20 half-ton, but it took some adapting on my part. The bolt pattern of my S-10 T-10 matches this b-h exactly, but the input shaft is about an inch too short -- wont reach the pilot busing. However, the Astro version not only fits, but the input housing is correct in both length and diameter. Now, these are not the WC versions, but the affordable variety from the local yard, and the version on my 350 cu.incher has proven to be very sturdy, and has decent ratios too!
What is the secret to hooking a garden-variety T-5 to a small block, or late-series six-shooter, like the 250 cu.in. in our Nova? Should I have gotten the b-h from the van as well as the trans? Adapting the Astro (or GMC Safari) T-5 works perfectly well (including the standard throwout bearing and linkage), but is a bit strange, involving moving the upper two holes a bit, and fabbing an extension from the bottom holes that allows it to bolt on securely. Also, I understand from Web files that only a limited number of vans were so equipped; I know I haven't located another as overwhelmingly they seem to be automatics.
I've found adapters to provide more distance between the crank flange and the front of the transmission, but not the opposite. I have both my son's '51 Chevy coupe (Dads old wheels) and daughters Nova to convert. Help?
Aside: I can provide a photo and dimensions of my simple steel adapter bracket for the lower two holes if anyone on HAMB is interested. Thanks!
Wick

 

The search function is your friend ( T-5 Tech)

 

pictures! what year nova?

 

Thanks for the input; and quick, too!
1.) Pardon my naivete, but what is "T-5 Tech" and how do I access it? I'm rising seventy, and a car nut since the fifties, but not a cyber-world guy!
2,) Actually, its a '67 Chevy II four-door, a family car since new, with 63K. It isn't stock if you're wondering, (custom uph to replace the dud original, fifteen-inchers, and a turbo muffler, etc.) and has to do transportation duty to justify it's cost in our clan; belongs to daughter now, going to her son when he turns 16. I have gotten into the habit of calling it a "Nova" because all the young dudes give me a blank look or try to correct me when I say the right model. Because it is such a dull ride, and foul handling as well, I shot it (in original lacquer) with a '55 style two-tone. Has Cragar S/S alternative for show and shine days. Has Saginaw all-synchro three-speed, and needs a five-speed bad!
I'm a retired teacher who keeps medical bills at bay delivering for my local PPG store, Martin Autocolor. Ole' Rush lies to you about teachers retirement and job rights -- I know as I've also driven eighteen-wheelers, soldiered, fought fire and played bass in a rock band -- among other chores.
I was a '55 dude myself in 1961, have had twenty '55-7 Chevys (obviously Old School, I've never adopted the smarmy 'Tri-5" moniker) including mostly two-doors and one '55 Nomad. Can't afford 'em now!
Also, author of quite a few car articles, (see "Street Rodder" "A guide to building a street rod, the ultimate '59
Chev: Development of the '59 Chevy, Pg. 20-21, from November last) and "How to Restore Your Datsun Z-Car", twenty five years in print and still selling.
Wick
Oops, guess I thought I was getting paid by the word!?

 

The search function.

A GM sourced V8 T5 has the same input shaft length and case bolt pattern as every other GM manual since the early 60's, and earlier in trucks, except 1993-end. After 1992, all T5's in GM vehicles had the Ford case bolt pattern.

Yes, you read that right.

A T5 from an S10 has a longer input shaft than the V8 versions, and has the aforementioned case bolt pattern, except 1993-end. After 1992, all T5's in GM vehicles had the Ford case bolt pattern.

If the transmission case bolt pattern did not match, and the input shaft did not reach, then you have neither a GM V8 sourced t5, nor an S10 sourced T5.

If it was from a GM V8 it would reach. If it was from an S10, the input shaft would be too long.

Post a photo of the adapter, and of the transmission. If it still has a metal identity tag on it, or a sticker on it, it will have a number, like 1352-145. Post that number.

 

Astro van is the same as the GMC Safari van:

 

Thanks very much for the prompt reply, and photos!
Actually, I don't have any V-8 T-5s, only S-10 derived.
One on the bench says: 15589583 F3083 13-52-145 230716 on the tag, and the other 15677588 B1953 135216 195314; both have the 7-1/4" +/- input shafts, with 14-splines.
I took them (and the one in our '51 2-dr sedan) from the original pickups at our local u-pullem boneyard over the last four years. I didn't get under the car because I'm on the DL from shoulder surgery. It's just in there to provide reference for rear motor mount and shifter hole location in the tunnel. Sorry, no pix!
Though all are four-eared cases, none of these will work with the old Chevy bell-housing because, again, the input is too short to reach the pilot bushing by an inch or so.
I mocked up a NOS '55 b-h (well, it was in our Nomad back in '84, but was new/in primer then) on an engine stand, and hung the 4-cyl T-10 to make sure, and took a photo, but can't find it right now. All have the forward location of the shifter, not the rearward one from an F-body.
It doesn't seem probable that all three trans from S-10's were swapped in from other trucks or an F-body, so... what does that mean? Summing up: all eared, fit old b-h, but all too short in input shaft.
The Ford-pattern case from the Astro Van had the perfect length for the pilot bushing and retaining the original throw-out bearing and linkage from my '72 full-sized half-ton. I had to adapt the bottom two mounting holes to pick up the bottom bored-holes (use screw and nut as orig.) with a piece of angle-iron with two tabs welded on, which was EZ, and the two top one were ground to align -- the pilot-shaft housing plate on the front of the box centered on the old b-h perfectly -- using Allen screws. I compromised with a 10.5-in. clutch disk, all Brake Parts Supply here in Chico could provide back then for the 14-spline tip.
"Hokey" maybe, but it's been behaving perfectly for six years, and even helped me dust-off two different 5.0 Mustangs for 2-3 stoplights. That's the story...does anybody know what the best 'fix' would be?
Is there a bell-housing available (esp. salvage priced!) that will mate these S-10 boxes to the trad Chevy block bolt pattern. The '51 is a 350, but only for cruise nights, and the '67 is a 250-6 cyl. I have a lot of T-5 blogs and articles printed from the web, but no solution so far, as most interest in in WC boxes, and B-W and Tremec built the basic design for about a hundred different applications, including Nissans, etc.
Thanks to all for the help!
Wick, Class of '63

 

1352-145 has the 3.76:1 gear set, and was native to the S10, as you know.

The other must be too, due to the input shaft length, but the numbers aren't there to indicate the gears.

There should be a THREE digit code after the 1352.

 

Well, it looks like one suffix is '142' and the other only has '135216', which is only close. Anyway, those are all the numerals on the tag; I'll try to get the painted on ones when I can.
The gearing isn't a big issue to me, I'm primarily wanting the overdrive, and synchro low, which only a Saginaw 3-speed OD (very rare) might have.
I'm wondering if I'm going to have to put the S-10 boxes on craigslist or take to a swap meet, and start over, or...?
If there is no way to adapt them to a sbc or 6?
Thanks again!
Wick

 

Something is wrong, still.

S10 boxes fit the 6/8 bell, with a spacer, or spline/collar mods.

Either you have franken-T5's, or the wrong bellhousung.

Post a picture of the bellhousing, and the GM part number on it.

 

Thanks again for the input. I have a photo of the T-5 mounted on a Chevy bellhousing, but can't access it now. It shows my problem; input shaft won't reach pilot bushing by a significant margin. My b-h is GM #3733365, cast-iron, came from gennie dealer stock back about 1977. It has a depth, measuring from front face (to real of block) to rear face (where trans flange bolts on) of 6-1/4 in. The one on my '72 pickup and the '51 Chevy (not orig, natch) are the same dimension.
So hoccum I should need a spacer/adapter to increase this depth? I pulled all my three T-5s from S-10s personally. The box in the pickup came from an Astrovan, of course. Frankentrans the may be, but they are all the same dimensions, and all are no-fits, so far.
I'll photo my little mount adapter -- it's a no-brainer of angle-steel and two welded on tabs that extends the lower bolt holes to match the Ford-type deeper box -- when I get back on my feet in the shop. Still on the DL for heavy work; almost like really being retired at age 69!
Any more thoughts? WH

 

What I'm getting is you have 3 transmissions that measure the same... And one bellhousing you are going off of?... Maybe just for kicks find another bellhousing and see what happens with that one?

 

This very confusing. You indicate the bell housing depth is 6 1/4" and the teansmission input shafts are 7 1/4". Considering the crankshaft flange is farther to the rear than the bell housing/engine block mating surfaces, it's difficult to understand the input shaft not reaching the pilot bore in the crankshaft. I do understand the pilot is recessed in the crank flange a bit, but you have S-10 input shafts with 1" greater length than the bellhousing's depth. AND, 1" more length than a stock V8 T-5 trans input shaft which should fit as is.

Looking forward to the solution to this mystery.

Ray

 

Yep, and I'm confused; I mention three cast-iron bell housings so far: the one I took the number from, the one in my 1972 C-10 (which I adapted to the F--d pattern on the Astro WC box eventually), and the third in our '51 Chevy 2-door -- none of which work dimension-wise with my transmissions. Our CII has the formed aluminum b-h, but I don't have one off the car to compare it with.
My first confrontation was with the pickup (previously running a Saginaw 4-speed), and when the S-10 trans was mocked-up to it, without clutch, t/o bearing, etc., it didn't reach. I tried the WC, and everything worked exactly except the four bolt holes for the mounting. I naively tried to see if the input shaft, etc. from the WC would interchange with the S-10 boxes, but of course it wasn't even close, so I crossed off that option. This is where I felt I'd really hit a snag, otherwise I'd agree with you guys! The Astro WC is adapted to the C-10, and working very well indeed; wish all mine were that box!
I'd love to be made a fool of at this juncture, and find out they would go, frankly. Luckily for me, the '51 won't be completed for quite some time, so I can keep on researching, and the CII is perfectly okay (but not great) with it's original Saggy-naw all-syncho three speed. So, I'll find that picture of the S-10 T-5 mounted to the b-h on my engine stand and post it asap. If I'm all wet, we'll all know!
Thanks all for your help; if I can be of service to you, let me know. Please check out my article in STREET RODDER from last fall, the "How to Build a '59 Chevy Impala" special issue. Wick Humble

 

I guess I don't understand why an S10/Astro 4.3 bellhousing wouldn't let you put a Chevy pattern T5 on anything with the same bell bolt pattern.

You could use an F-body bellhousing, too, but seems like they cock the trans at an angle or something.

 

eBay item number:
141658596307 $100.00 Saginaw 3 speed overdrive transmission (not mine)

 

Which engine did the s10 tranny bolt up to? I remember seeing an article about s10 t5 adapted to early inline six, but had to use the t5 that was behind the 2.8 and the other ones didn't fit.

 

All of the S10 T5's, with the GM pattern have the same length input shaft, 4-cylinder, or 6-cylinder.

 

This is the simple steel (angle iron with tabs MIG'ed on) that allows the WC Ford pattern -- from Astro van-- bottom bolts to adapt to the Chevy b-h lower holes on my '72 C-10. This trans has the correct: 14 spline input shaft length, input shaft housing diameter to fit b-h and C-10 t/o bearing. I was in a hurry so I grabbed the 10-in. 14-spline clutch disk from the local jobber; I should have gotten the 10-1/2-in. disc from the van. I had to shorten my forward driveshaft etc. but otherwise it works perfect. Note the shortened stock/orig. reinforcement rods that I took from the side tabs on the casting to the adapter to help support the trans weight. Now, the upper holes don't align exactly; I did a little grinding to the case to mate them, and used Allen-head screws up top. Better would have been to weld up the original holes with cast-iron rod in my AC welder, and re-drill 'em at the slightly narrower measurement, I know. When I took this pic I still hadn't trimmed the tin lower flywheel/clutch cover to fit it. Of course, I had to put an S-10 shifter assy. on to replace the offset van version.
This truck has gone from the original granny four speed to a cheap Saginaw car four speed and now to the T-5, which I love. Ratios aren't bad (with a strong 350) I can start in 2nd easily, if I choose, and have a great 5th-overdrive that lets me cruise on I-5 at about 2200 rpm. Still punk mileage, but improved.
As I noted, apparently only about ten thousand of these boxes were put in Astro/Safari vans, tho I suppose maybe other Ford product T-5's might fit? The world of T-5's is very varied, I find.
The local u-pull will still sell a trans for about $80 on 'half-price Sunday', and I have the three S-10 boxes.

 

And that is what hot rodding is all about.

 

The S-10/S-15 T-5's I have are all from bangers; they at least have the shifter hole forward on the tail-shaft housing. I have to check Advance Adapters to see if they do have a bell that will let this cheap trans fit; except there goes some of the cheapness! I wish I had the answer to this which seems to everyone else to be fairly simple; and it should be, I guess, but... Still want help! I'm doing a four-generation '51 Chevy 2-dr sedan with 350, MII front stuff, and four-wheel discs, etc. Should be running in late '17, if I get help! :-<) Thx!

 

Gimpy,
Thx for your inputs; helped me. But I still am confused -- should I find an aftermarket adapter to make up the distance between the pilot bushing and the face of the T-5? What part am I missing?

 

If, as you are saying, the input shaft is too short now, then the addition of a bell housing adapter will move the input shaft even further from the pilot bearing / bushing.
MANY folks have used the early (mechanical speedo drive) S10 trannys with their 235's, in early 50's Chevys.
Don't know what you have done incorrectly, your lengthy, wordy posts have made this thread difficult to read.

 

Something is still wrong. If you have a proper V8 or late L6 bellhousing, from just about any Chevy V8 (early car/truck, late car, or late truck, with a register ring spacer), and a S10 T5, and you are putting that on ANY GM engine with the late-6/SBC/BBC bellhousing pattern, and you try to bolt it up, you will find that you cannot get the transmission bolts to pull the transmission all the way into the bell housing.

Why? Because, as has been mentioned, the input shaft is too long. It will bottom out in the pilot bushing

To get an S10 T5 in, you have to shorten the input shaft.

If you mistakenly have a V8 T5, it would fit right in.

If it has the classic GM bolt pattern (shown on the left)...
...and there is no adapter or spacer on the bell housing, and the input shaft does not reach the silicon bronse (gold colored) pilot bushing in the rear of the crank, then you have an unknown bellhousing, that will NOT WORK, or a franken-transmission that WILL NOT work.

Mock it all up, point the camera inside the clutch fork hole and show us how far the input shaft is from the pilot bushing.

I just put mid-70's 250-6 in my customer's truck. I used a late truck bellhousing, which has a bigger center hole, so a spacer ring was required. To that I bolted an S10 T5 (13-52-145) after shortening the input shaft.

If your issue is actually the extra length, and you don't want to, cannot, or do not have anyone who can shorten it for you, you can get a spacer that goes between the bellhousing and the transmission:

Late truck center bore hole: http://www.hotrodworks.com/product/t5-muncie-pattern-transmission-adapter-5-18-bore/

Early car, late car, early truck center bore hole: http://www.hotrodworks.com/product/t5-muncie-pattern-transmission-adapter/

This is the center bore hole (the big hole in the middle):

It is either 4-11/16" (all 1955-1967, car 1968-on) or 5-1/8" (1968-1991 truck).

That's the whole explanation. I don't know what else to say.

 

Take in-focus pictures of everything you have, and post them.

 

I'm a little concerned after reading though this as I am starting a T5 conversion to an early Packard inline 8. My plan was to use the non-WC S10 tranny (because of the longer 7.25 input shaft) coupled to the shorter older Chevy bell housing (6.25" depth). This, in theory would leave me plenty of room to build an adapter plate between the bell housing and the engine block.
Right now I have all the parts except for the older Chevy bell....
After reading through this post I hope I'm not just pissin' in the wind

Bobby

 

You are on the right track. You should have about an inch to make that adapter out of.

Only the OP is confused here. Everyone else is in agreement.

Not to disparage him, but he has done exactly one T5 installation (that he has mentioned). I have done more than 50.

Oh, and it has been done. This is an automatic conversion, but the same mods done to the flexplate could be done to a flywheel. Not sure on a Packard pilot bearing. That you'd have to figure out.

http://www.transmissionadapters.com/Packard to Chev adapter kit.htm