How about a Model A/B Banger powered HA/GR

Four bangers?? I thought we switched to lawnmowers a few posts back?

 

You'd best put in the rules that the block has to be a Ford casting...otherwise somebody will show up with a Donovan(sp?).

FYI, My Banger powered Zipper went across the scales at 1640 pounds with a 2X4 mild steel frame. Getting under 1000 pounds shouldn't be all that difficult.

 

Is the spool for an 'A' axle?

Is it a proper spool or a welded up diff?

Ever tried it on the road?

 

The 10 second bangers were pretty much state of the art slingshots, fuel not reported...this class is obviously a step or two back from that, just threw in those numbers as inspirational agitprop. I know I have some old feature articles on pre-1954, pre-slingshot dragsters, some of the evolved Bug school, some looking like stripped sprintcars. Will start combing the lit and see if I can get some numbers from something Bug-like.
Hmmm...my '31 banger coupe is supposed to weigh in at about 1,000 pounds...I could likely get that stuff REAL light with no body...but it's only got 750 CC's...

 

You guys are gonna keep screwin' around until Ryan axes the chance of Bangers even getting to run in the class. Ryan has already said that the rules do not support 4 Bangers but he will work on it.

SO............

FIRST OFF, how does Kathy Donovan's engine qualify as pre-1962 engine? It don't.

SECOND, who cares if they bring a Donovan made to look like an iron motor? The 6" tire rule will be the equalizer. The way I see it, if something makes "umpteen jillion horsepower", it don't matter. Put John Force's Mustang saddled up with 6" rubber beside any of the current HA/GR legal cars and I would almost put my money on the HA/GR legal cars. Also, I am taking the stance that if I get beat every round, SO WHAT.

THIRD, I'm still not so sure that you can easily get one of these to be under 1000 pounds. This Model A Racer weighed in at 1240 lbs in race trim. Understand that this engine did not have a starter or generator, --and only a motorcycle battery to power the ignition. Other than a bulky body, I can easily pick up the entire body (which is two half-sheets of plywood and some sheetmetal). So after looking at the MobilGas car, just where do you trim more weight to lose 250-300 pounds to make it fall under the 1000 pound weight?

Please understand that I am not trying to be a nay-sayer but I like the K.I.S. approach. I also think that having a few more cars to play, --and a year or so to make adjustment to the rules will help the cause. IMO, LEGISLATION is what has caused this country to be out of control, ...but that's another topic for another day!!

 

The weight problem focuses pretty quickly on the axles, I think. Once you've tossed everything you don't need, you still need an automotive axle at each end and you have few really light options. Maybe Anglia front, but you sure can't use a subcompact rear behind a banger. Even a tube Ford front only knocks off a small amount...

 

When you look at it, you will see that the front brakes are gone. I probably could lighten some (10 lbs??) by drilling some holes in the axle, and using different front radius rods.

The rear axle assembly, even though the driveline has been shortened 13" could probably stand a diet too. I have a new Quick Change unit made by Derek that I could substitute in the center-section for the cast-iron banjo section but I do not know if;

1 ) it would be THAT much lighter, and

2) whether it would take that kind of abuse very long.​

Even though there are only 5 leaves in the rear spring, I feel sure there may be 50 pounds (+/-) gained by eliminating the spring and rear crossmember. I know that "a little here and a little there" adds up over time, --but it is gonna take a bunch of them here & theres to make up 300 lbs!!

 

Like I said, run what ya brung!

Seems to me the whole thing is about having fun and judging from your AARA pics, you've got that down pat.

Go for it! I'll sign up as a pit crew member on the #78 B.T.A. special!

 

Build it. Bring it. You'll have fun and we'll all cheer you on! Brad

 

I say allow them... then just make a trophy for the fastest flathead banger and see how it grows!

Guys could run an overhead to compete with the flathead inline guys (they won't be able to break into the 12's, let alone the 11's) and then the guys that just want to beat on an old banger can do just that!

FUN all around!

Sam.

 

Brent you're right it's probably at least a 50lb. saving with a solid mount rear axle. Maybe more considering it eliminates the radius rods, shocks, spring, shackles, A c-member. Save a few pounds using a spool. An alum. Winfield head or suchlike will be a bunch lighter than an iron OHV although obviously you'd be giving up a lot of HP. Hairpins in front with rod ends will save quite a few pounds. No fan, no rad, no grille shell--25-30lbs likely. Drilled front axle 5-10lbs. If you can do without a rad can you do without a waterpump? Couple pounds there and a bit of friction gone. No pulley or belt--couple pounds. One gallon gas tank. with a Schroeder valve to pressurize it. Like you said. Here--there--it adds up. Not that any of it would be even remotely necessary for the having fun part but it's equally fun to noodle around with it and if you're gonna build a vehicle from scratch then might as well do what you can without going completely nuts. After all back in the day they went as nuts as money, time, and tech would allow.

Brent you noted the problem of yanking gears and jerking on the wheel. If you roll enough caster into the front end it ought to desensitize the steering enough to reduce the problem or am I off base on that?

 

Did a bit of digging for early digger numbers. Old HRM's are infuriating--detailed features with comments on a car's remarkable performance with NO NUMBERS GIVEN (this seems to have been almost a policy with them), drag results given without any pictures of winning cars or any way to connect speed to tech, etc. Also, for the early fifties Bug-style digger period, ET's were usually not reported--speed was the number people wanted and understood. There are a number of early banger dragsters featured, though.
Found some numbers for 4-banger class winners in California, class defined by 4-cyl engines runnin in any chassis.

Source: "Best Hot Rods", Jaderquist and Borgeson, Fawcett 1953. This little title came out in several editions for years.

Santa Ana Drags, Orange County Racing Assoc. record speeds,
July 1, 1952--B. Sanders, 101.01
December 31, 1952 Yates-Cooper, 125.20
(Other classes showed similar big jumps in speed--this must have been a time of serious tech development! Chrisman, the top dog, jumped from 129 to 140. Bean Bandits were at 135. Chrisman was just a year or so away from blowing away the mythical 1-G barrier that was supposed to end drag racing progress...)

Pomona Drags, Pomona Valley Timing Assoc.,
October 19, 1952, Smaldino-Betts, 110.42
December 31, 1952, Yates-Cooper 117.80

Probably some heavy reading in the period mags would uncover a picture or perhaps a feature ID'ing these cars, but there's no info whatever in this book.

Later in the book, however, there's a KILLER piece of inspiration:

The Kay Kimes dragster gets a half page.
Winfield flathead B, Wico mag, 2 Strombergs, a very simple banger.
Car is a converted Sprint car, still basically intact, has a cooling system and looks ready to go sprint. Front wheels are some kind of tall and spindly wires, rears look like maybe '35 Ford with 6.50's.
"The car has topped 110 in the drags"

 

A note on lightness from the same book: Nick Braje's Crosley dragster is featured...460 pounds ready to race!! 96MPH in the quarter with 47 cubes. Looks like a stretched go-kart.

 

I've been considering the OHV banger HA/GR since I first saw the rules last year. The only possible advantage they would have would be weight, and the fact that they are really good torque engines (4 1/4" stroke crank). The biggest drawbacks would be cubic inches. An A/B block bored 1/8" over is still only a 213. I can't see anything else under 235 being run, and those are OHV as well. The other downside is RPM's. The 'A' is rated at a max RPM of 3000, even a 'B' or 'C' counterweighted crank doesn't give a lot more revs. All that said it would be fun to see how competitive they could be, but it would be more of a 'fun run' ride than anything else. But I would love to see a banger smack a Chevy inline around a bit....

 

Betcha Brent would take serious issue with the statement that "The 'A' is rated at a max RPM of 3000, even a 'B' or 'C' counterweighted crank doesn't give a lot more revs."

 

I'm only talking stock trim engines... I know there's uber secret bottom ends out there.

 

I read that, ...and the post written just above and I just grinned. I wasn't gonna comment but since you already did, that's OK. Poor ole' Warbozz is only guilty of the "he said - she said" syndrome. We'll educate him over time.

Just to 'cornfuze' the troops though, I will likely have a B non-counterbalanced crank spinning on babbit in my HA/GR block ...and I can assure you that I will be twisting it much harder than 3K rpms!!



First hurdle is that we gotta get the OK from the Daddy Dog to even run a Banger.

 

I'm not sure what you are waiting for.... it is well within the rules even with an overhead conversion. Brad

 

Bruce, I just remembered Wes Coopers Miller-Schofield head equiped 4Banger is in Mark Dees book The Miller Dynasty. In 1977 Wes took his Banger powered rail to El Marage and turned 166.35MPH, same car turned 10.9 at the drags with a terminal speed of 132MPH.

 

How about an Offenhauser/Drake 4 banger? (On gas,with carbs, of course.)

 

Recycler, I ain't so sure about that. Click here to read what Ryan said about Bangers in the HA/GR class.

I dunno how they would do. I know that in AARA racing, George Seals has a Model A powered midget that runs with the Offys at times, and he has no problems running with them. I also know that they are high-end horsepower cars and not much on bottom-end (I'm guessing because of the OHCs) but with enough gear in the rear, and enough gears in the trans., maybe that would be a fun ride.

It would definitely be sweet music to the audience in the stands!!

 

Well, Ryan is the boss. Those of us who worked up the first rules thought about modelA/B 4 bangers and that's why we said no OHV V8s or V6s but left things open for the 4 poppers. We figured they'd be at such a disadvantage that they could run OHV conversions.
Offys should be legal for the class. Pre 62.
Gas only, carbs only, naturally aspirated, 6" street tire applies to everything.
Again, Ryan is the grand master of the class now. Maybe he feels that the rules should be opened up for the 4 bangers so they can compete. Damn, if he allows 4 bangers to run nitro I'll have to build another car and a 4 banger!
Brad

 

Can I run a 1961 Pontiac four banger??? I know where one of those is...

 

Should qualify. In OEM trim it had as much as 166hp and well over 200lb.ft. of torque. Heavy sucker though--540lbs--nearly as much as an SBC. Not surprising as it was a 389 with one bank lopped off. Of course a Model A motor is hardly a flyweight either. The Poncho has a rep as a real shaker.

 

Brent I've noticed that there seems to be some unanimity, at least down under that the ideal rear tire for a HA/DR is an L78/15 which is 29" tall and has a tread width of 5.88" Of course all those cars are, so far, sixes or eights. This sounds like overkill for a banger. What tread width would be enough do you surmise to hook up a hot flatbanger? A 600/16 seems like it might be enough and would weigh less than the L78/15. What are the modified class hillclimbers using?

 

WOW

 

How about this, took theses today.....at the Throttlers meet.


CBB

 

We pulled the front wheels and won............. see you Oct 7th with our
flathead 4-banger powered FED. There might also be another FED with a 4-banger & a Gemsa OHV.

 

There are some four-banger hillclimb types over on Ahooga.com who seem to be getting into serious development...Ed J?...maybe someone should go over there and point out the advantages to running on a FLAT quarter mile...