Register now to get rid of these ads!

How about a Model A/B Banger powered HA/GR

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by BRENT in 10-uh-C, Sep 27, 2006.

  1. BRENT in 10-uh-C
    Joined: Apr 14, 2004
    Posts: 502

    BRENT in 10-uh-C
    Member


    1 Would it be too far behind the times --or outside of the original spirit? :rolleyes:


    2 Can an era-equipped OHV Model A/B be allowed to compete against the flattie V-8's and the In-liners ?


    3 Could a 'built' 80-100 horse flathead Banger keep up with the class?


    Thoughts....




    [​IMG]

    OR

    [​IMG]
     
  2. Wildfire
    Joined: Apr 23, 2006
    Posts: 828

    Wildfire
    Member

    Go for it Brent - show up and run what ya brung!
     
  3. QQMOON
    Joined: Oct 7, 2002
    Posts: 1,309

    QQMOON
    Member

    Y not do it
     
  4. Kinky6
    Joined: May 11, 2003
    Posts: 1,765

    Kinky6
    Member

    Yeah, Y-not? There was a guy at the Flathead-Inliner Nationals at Bandimere raceway a few years ago running a short wheelbase dragster w/ a model B 4 cyl.; he could pull the front wheels off the ground with it.


    :cool:
     
    Register now to get rid of these ads!

  5. BRENT in 10-uh-C
    Joined: Apr 14, 2004
    Posts: 502

    BRENT in 10-uh-C
    Member

    Well Mister Stewart, ... fear is that this would be heard from the announcer's stand:


    THERE HE GOES FANS,
    GO GET YOUR POPCORN & COKES FROM THE CONCESSION STAND
    AND BE BACK IN TIME TO WATCH HIM CROSS THE FINISH LINE!! :eek:

    Now that would make my Banger Buddies proud now wouldn't it?? [​IMG]
     
  6. Bruce Lancaster
    Joined: Oct 9, 2001
    Posts: 21,683

    Bruce Lancaster
    Member Emeritus

    We need some research on the banger dragsters that crop up in the early fifties rod mags--my feeling is that some were faster than current standards in this class! The banger is also actually pretty light when it loses the boat anchor flywheel and picks up some aluminum...gotta find an OHV that doesn't add a ton of weight up there and try to run lighter than the sixes and eights. Anybody know short block weight?? I know a banger without head and flywheel is WAY easier to lift into a truck than a flathead or 6 cyl long block--gotta try not to add too much back on completing it.
     
  7. Bib Overalls
    Joined: Aug 3, 2001
    Posts: 4,068

    Bib Overalls
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    The rules would have to OK an OHV conversion to be competitive. After that it is all a matter of gearing, weight management, and driving skill. Win or lose you would have 4 barrels of fun!
     
  8. recycler
    Joined: Mar 27, 2001
    Posts: 661

    recycler
    Member

    I just read through the rules and it looks to me like you can run it with an overhead conversion- no prob. You'd be about a 100 horses shy of the v8s and sixes but if you could make it light enough............
    Brad
     
  9. Outback
    Joined: Mar 4, 2005
    Posts: 1,083

    Outback
    Member
    from NE Vic

    I've heard of a Banger on Nitro running I think low 10's, that was in the 60's, don't have any more details.

    Cheers

    Outback
     
  10. denis4x4
    Joined: Apr 23, 2005
    Posts: 3,354

    denis4x4
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Colorado

    How about trading an OHV for EFI on a flathead four?
     
  11. crowerglide
    Joined: Aug 31, 2006
    Posts: 201

    crowerglide
    Member
    from Tyler, TX

    My lawnmower will pull the front wheels up, but it won't win a drag race.:D
     
  12. Bruce Lancaster
    Joined: Oct 9, 2001
    Posts: 21,683

    Bruce Lancaster
    Member Emeritus

    MY Model B will SMOKE your lawnmower! We're going for PINKS!!

    (Much frantic digging in tiny stash of old hotrod stuff concealed behind a set of Barth's Dogmatics in my office)
    FIND!! "Hot Rod Handbook", Griff Borgeson racing historian guy, 1960...
    Not many specifics, but a report on special four banger meet held by "Bakersfield Smokers"...100 entrants...top speeds in the 130's, "ET's comparable to V8's in the 140-150 MPH bracket"...doubtless a result of murderous low end torque/limited RPM/HP potential of these rigs.
    Nichols headed slingshot shown, 10.70, 129.31...
    Pics of Vesco streamliner, Lou Senter, Tyrone Powers with his Cragar/Ford Jowett Javelin!
    Might be potential here for adequate performance, it seems. I know I've seen a sprinkling of banger rails in the early mags, but would take some digging.
     
  13. crowerglide
    Joined: Aug 31, 2006
    Posts: 201

    crowerglide
    Member
    from Tyler, TX

    I stole the lawnmower, so there's no pink slip, but you're on! (LOL).

    I remember one Model A dragster back in the early 70s that hauled ass, but I don't remember where it came from.
     
  14. Bruce Lancaster
    Joined: Oct 9, 2001
    Posts: 21,683

    Bruce Lancaster
    Member Emeritus

    Dang...now, did I leave the supersecret 26MM Zenith carb in the dishwasher or the dog's bowl? Gotta do some digging fast when I get home...
     
  15. caffeine
    Joined: Mar 11, 2004
    Posts: 2,440

    caffeine
    Member
    from Central NJ

    oh come on, your so organized im sure you know exactly where it is. didnt you arrange your carbs by using the dewey decimal system?!!?

    :D:D:D
     
  16. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 26,306

    The37Kid
    Member

    I'd build a Banger powered car befor I spent time with a flathead V8.
     
  17. Bruce Lancaster
    Joined: Oct 9, 2001
    Posts: 21,683

    Bruce Lancaster
    Member Emeritus

    "oh come on, your so organized im sure you know exactly where it is. didnt you arrange your carbs by using the dewey decimal system?!!?"

    We're talking bangers and flathead stuff here, so unfortunately everything I own goes into the same 133 "Parapsychology & occultism" classification...
     
  18. Artiki
    Joined: Feb 17, 2004
    Posts: 1,998

    Artiki
    Member
    from Brum...

    Wow...talking Dewey on the HAMB. Now I know I'm at home here.....
     
  19. BRENT in 10-uh-C
    Joined: Apr 14, 2004
    Posts: 502

    BRENT in 10-uh-C
    Member

    Generally speaking, a short block will go in at under 200 lbs, and a fully built (minus F/W) will be about 250 lbs. If I were throwing out a guess, I would think that an iron OHV on a block complete with dual carbs & manifold, plus ignitions, flywheel, clutch & housing, and etc. will likely be in the 400 lb. range. My gut feeling is that I could be about 100-150 lbs lighter than others running the buzzin' half-dozens and the 8 cylinders. Am I close?
     
  20. Bruce Lancaster
    Joined: Oct 9, 2001
    Posts: 21,683

    Bruce Lancaster
    Member Emeritus

    That all sounds reasonable...and I don't feel that HP numbers adequately cover drag times with bangers and flatheads. They can't produce big HP numbers because they are below the mathematical point in the formula that derives HP where numbers start climbing...but the lower end of the torque curve is much fatter relatively than modern engines. ET's hence better than expected, MPH lower than ET would suggest...
     
  21. raven
    Joined: Aug 19, 2002
    Posts: 4,429

    raven
    Member

    Now you have my interest.
    r
     
  22. SUHRsc
    Joined: Sep 27, 2005
    Posts: 5,078

    SUHRsc
    Member

    bruce,
    I'll run you for pinks!
    we can meet up at hershey, i know a good road
    Zach
     
  23. Bruce Lancaster
    Joined: Oct 9, 2001
    Posts: 21,683

    Bruce Lancaster
    Member Emeritus

    So...bangers have made it at least into the 10's. Where's that on the current scale in this class?? Haven't been following current events...head's stuck in 1952.
     
  24. BRENT in 10-uh-C
    Joined: Apr 14, 2004
    Posts: 502

    BRENT in 10-uh-C
    Member

    Are we really talking Apples-to-Apples here??:eek: In a short slingshot weighing-in at about 850 lbs, then I can see those numbers. I was thinking that Wes & Kong ran those kind of numbers with a turbo-ed 4port Riley on a .155" over B engine.. (I own that block BTW:p ) In a HA/GR, I don't see it. I think a flathead banger busting into the 12's would be something to cause a few cheers from the bystanders. I would also think that an Overhead on a Banger block would likely be in the mid-twelves (+/-).

    OOooohh, and I'll tell you right now that I ain't sure I have the "kahoonas" to be driving a HAMBster HA/GR into the mid-tens based off of the rides/specs I see everyone else building to!!:confused: I was thinking someone had said that 11:99 was the limit --and 11:98 and you were put on the trailer.

    Just out of curiosity, I see where the "Gas Rail Gurus" will be in having a showdown at high-noon this Saturday at the GoodGuys Meet in TX. Is this something that is (or will) growing into something where we will have a HA/GR class to run on a regular basis at the GG Drag Events?

     
  25. Any specs on the block?
     
  26. BRENT in 10-uh-C
    Joined: Apr 14, 2004
    Posts: 502

    BRENT in 10-uh-C
    Member

    Only that it was set up with inserts on the bottom end, a stock deburred B crank w/o counterweights that was drilled for pressure, a set of rods that were polished and had been boxed, and valve seat area that had a couple of cracks. I did not get the head or anything other than the short block.
     
  27. Darwin
    Joined: Oct 14, 2002
    Posts: 505

    Darwin
    Member

    Dang Brent I'd thumb a ride to see any banger dragsters, at the Texas Day of the Drags or anywhere else within shouting distance.

    Gaming the Rules:

    Like drag racers everywhere are wont to do I see some interesting "holes" in the rules into which horsepower challenged bangers could dive through.

    Rule 1. Use 1 1/2" X 3 tubing for a frame and one piece of 3" for front crossmember. Plenty for a sub 1000lb. car.

    Rule 2. You're stuck with a genny front axle but swiss-cheesing it should be mandatory. In the rear the axle must be "stock width" but does not appear to have to actually be an early banjo. S10 rear with a 4.11 or 4.56 gear sounds about right. Use a spool as well.

    Rule 6. Use a speedster cowl or narrowed bucket body and alum. bomber seat.

    Rule 9. Use one of those 13lb. gel cell jobs or MC batt. just big enough to do the job fully charged.

    Rule 12. If OHV banger conversions are allowed they become not optional but mandatory.

    Rule 18. Use MC radiator with small elec. pump to circulate water.

    Rule 19. No autos but there do not appear to be restrictions on manuals. Use close ratio 4speed or Tremec. May not use more than the first 3 gears anyway.

    Rule 20. Use 700-15 Excelsior Comp V tires in rear or similar vintage racing rubber. Use 400/425-15 Excelsior bias in front. Vintage racing rubber might have stickier tread.

    Rule 25. There is no specific mention of wheel type but "spirit of the “Bug” might rule out real Halibrands or vintage looking alloys (like AR Salt Flat). As Ryan says, "ya better ask." Also the Bug had no front brakes so can we assume that's okay here as well?

    Finally nothing in the rules about it but it would be smart to get the car as low as possible. Speedster-like height not a great idea. Also it doesn't specifically say that you can't solid mount the rear axle--be quite a bit lighter and you don't need a trick mult-link suspension to plant the tires hard enough to absorb 500lb.ft of torque.

    I have a feeling that Brent or the other hot banger HAMBsters could get an 8-900lb car into the low 11s without trying terribly hard.
     
  28. BRENT in 10-uh-C
    Joined: Apr 14, 2004
    Posts: 502

    BRENT in 10-uh-C
    Member

    Dang Brent I'd thumb a ride to see any banger dragsters, at the Texas Day of the Drags or anywhere else within shouting distance.


    Gaming the Rules:
    Rule 1. Use 1 1/2" X 3 tubing for a frame and one piece of 3" for front crossmember. Plenty for a sub 1000lb. car.
    We have been talking and I do not think you can be in at under 1000 pounds. I expect to see somewhere around 1200-1300 in ready to race trim. I am thinking the rolling chassis alone will tip the scales between 750 - 800 lbs.

    Rule 2. You're stuck with a genny front axle but swiss-cheesing it should be mandatory. In the rear the axle must be "stock width" but does not appear to have to actually be an early banjo. S10 rear with a 4.11 or 4.56 gear sounds about right. Use a spool as well.
    Again, I don't see a real value gained by a narrowed rear end other than maybe some 'aero'. I would want to research which rear ends use less Hp to turn and possibly go with that.

    Rule 6. Use a speedster cowl or narrowed bucket body and alum. bomber seat.
    I agree with the bomber seat. I will probably just hand-form some aluminum and Dzus it to the frame rails. Just enough to cover the side and up over the cowl. To me personally, this is more about "theme", or in the 'Spirit of the Event'. That means it needs to look like it was conceived and built in 1950-whatever, then was immediately put in a time capsule, and just found 3 days prior to the race.

    Rule 9. Use one of those 13lb. gel cell jobs or MC batt. just big enough to do the job fully charged.
    In AARA there are several guys that are using Lawn & Garden batteries. I may really try to wow the troops and use a Ford Script 12volt battery out of a 1955 Thunderbird or something. I will use cloth-braid covered wiring along with vintage guages, a hand pump to pressure the fuel tank, and stuff like that. The only reason why I would do it is because I already own that type of stuff. Others may think all of that is dumb thinking and total nonsense.

    Rule 12. If OHV banger conversions are allowed they become not optional but mandatory.
    I don't think that "mandatory" is what should be called for. To me, this class is exactly what Exhibition Racing is all about. 'Run What Ya Brung' ...and 'First Place pays the same as Last Place'. If someone wants to bring a stock Banger, let 'em do it. If they out-shift a guy with a large motor and are able to cross the finish line first, then the crowd goes nuts.

    Rule 18. Use MC radiator with small elec. pump to circulate water.
    I probably will not even do a radiator. Just cap both inlets and fill it full. A "puke tank" will catch the overflow and we'll just drain it between rounds. I got my doubts that you woudl ever see round-robins in this class. Radiators and pumps just add weight. Lack of plumbing adds mystique to the car.

    Rule 19. No autos but there do not appear to be restrictions on manuals. Use close ratio 4speed or Tremec. May not use more than the first 3 gears anyway.
    Based off of the F.A.S.T. "Flat Hill-Climb" we ran a few years ago in Cincinnatti, you can likely start in 2nd gear and just make 1 gear shift. A stock Model A trans has a 1.9 second gear ratio and a 1.0 third gear ratio. If the engine is built with a broad torque band, one can probably overcome the length of time it takes to make a couple of gear changes by just shifting once (2nd to 3rd) and letting it muscle it's way through 3rd gear. Something that I have wondered about is how violent the handling on these could get if someone driving was banging gears and jerking the wheel at the same time?

    Rule 20. Use 700-15 Excelsior Comp V tires in rear or similar vintage racing rubber. Use 400/425-15 Excelsior bias in front. Vintage racing rubber might have stickier tread.
    Since I am a "wire wheel" type of guy, I will probably try to run a 16" wheel (1935 Ford) with some sort of 19" or 21" Model A front wheel & M/C tire. At the projected speeds, I will probably opt for all new rubber at each corner. A blow-out on the big end would not be "healthy" for the class, --or me either!!:eek:

    Rule 25. There is no specific mention of wheel type but "spirit of the “Bug” might rule out real Halibrands or vintage looking alloys (like AR Salt Flat). As Ryan says, "ya better ask." Also the Bug had no front brakes so can we assume that's okay here as well?
    See above. If I do get adventurous, I may just look at using a stock metal rim off of a mid-40's to 50's Ford. In the grand scheme of things, I am thinking that saving 75-100 lbs will equate out to be a 'tenth'. In this class, is a 'tenth' really going to matter since we are not chasing a purse or a championship?


    Finally nothing in the rules about it but it would be smart to get the car as low as possible. Speedster-like height not a great idea. Also it doesn't specifically say that you can't solid mount the rear axle--be quite a bit lighter and you don't need a trick mult-link suspension to plant the tires hard enough to absorb 500lb.ft of torque.

    I have a feeling that Brent or the other hot banger HAMBsters could get an 8-900lb car into the low 11s without trying terribly hard.
    I agree whole-heartedly that building the car low will be a PLUS. If you look at the pictures, I think most guys have built their car with the rear axle solidly mounted to the frame rails. I will likely do the same. The only thing that I am un-decided on is whether I want to use a rear axle that is post 1962, or try to "theme" the car out with an early banjo-style rear axle. I have a 4:11, a 4:33, a 4:56, and a 4:88 gear set for a Model A rear end. I even have a spool, so that may be an option there.

    The only thing that I am having reservations on is going low 11's in a car that theoretically does not have the stability (or protection) for those kind of numbers. Low 12's will probably see 110-115 MPH times, and IMO at that we are starting to push the envelope as far as steering, tires, and etc. are concerned. I race Model A speedsters on 1/2 mile dirt tracks w/o any cage or bars but our max speeds are about 60 MPH. We are talking double that with these.

    I will close by saying that I think there are a bunch of people that would spectate and cheer on a Banger in HA/GR competitions. It's like cheering on the Underdog.:cool: ....and for me it will be a 100% write-off to Uncle Sam. ;) ;)



     
  29. recycler
    Joined: Mar 27, 2001
    Posts: 661

    recycler
    Member

    You guys need to put the crack pipe down. LOL
    No model A/B four banger is going to run 11s under HA/GR rules.
    No blower, no nitrous, no turbos, no fuel inj. Gasoline only.
    Our HA/GRs are currently running faster times than the GASOLINE naturally aspirated dragsters were running with flat v8s in the mid 50s

    Brad
     
  30. BRENT in 10-uh-C
    Joined: Apr 14, 2004
    Posts: 502

    BRENT in 10-uh-C
    Member

    I tried to tell 'em Brad! [​IMG][​IMG]



    Oh, and BTW;

    Either Somebody else needs to quit Cheatin' --or THEY also need to put the pipe down too!! [​IMG]




     

Share This Page

Register now to get rid of these ads!

Archive

Copyright © 1995-2020 The Jalopy Journal: Steal our stuff, we'll kick your teeth in. Terms of Service. Privacy Policy.

Atomic Industry
Forum software by XenForo™ ©2010-2014 XenForo Ltd.