History Hot Rods: Part of technical and cultural heritage - restore - preserve - record

Correct,the proverbial watch dog to help keep a eye open for any pending legislation that could impact any of the automobile associations,from the antique auto club of America to the Monster truck association.

SEMA has a army of lobbyist that are always watching for any adverse proposals that may impact both the hobbyist and the manufacturer,you can't have one without the other. HRP

 

I see this a little differently than most who have replied to this thread. I really get into historic preservation of my roadster. Some of us have this craziness for historical preservation. I believe Stephan is saying that some similar vocabulary needs to apply as to what is a restored car or restored hot rod or custom in this case. He also is saying that there are some cars that are in a condition that they can be preserved without restoration. Tommy Orren built "Waco Kid" is a great example of this type of car. Steve has kept it 100% as found. But it was a well built car to begin with, way better than most from that time period. It is a true 100% survivor car which undergoes regular maintenance so that it can be driven and enjoyed. I believe that even most of the fasteners are original. It doesn't mean that other cars are any less fun or significant to the owner. But hey, who doesn't appreciate the Waco Kid car.

 

@KKrod : Can you show me a link to the Waco Kid car, so that I can understand what you mean?

 

Thanks.
And it's carefully preserved and NOT restored?
And it's still driven?

 

there are more pictures at

https://www.google.com/search?q=ste...isch&q=waco+kid+roadster&imgrc=aAEt0SqGb9EBhM:

 

Super interesting story!
That's exactly where it's worth to think about some aspects in the charta.

 

I think I see where Steffen is coming from.
More about preserving the history, than anything else.
Now for what it's worth, isn't that what the Hamb does?
So long as all the content of this web site remains intact, here is the world's Hot Rod history.
From the Doane Spencer Roadster, to HRPs 32 fordoor, Ryan's Coupes to Beaners Model A.
Our legends and our little guys builds are all documented right here, for as long as the data remains intact.

 

I would have no problem with using "guidelines" to help maintain the historical data/vehicles, just so long as it's done through maintaining the physical record through pictures & journals(audio/video, perhaps?, as most of us have neither the time nor resources to, travel to see each vehicle or event, & obviously not recreate a 'historical' event.) The worry that I have is the trend to "protect our history" through "Preservation Legislation" has become 'Politically Acceptable', much like 'Political Correctness', & just as, if not more so, REPRESIVE TO OUR PERSONAL AND ARTISTIC CREATIVE FREEDOM ! I sincerely hope we are able to keep 'legislation' as far away as possible, especially in the area of preservation!

 

"Preservation Legislation"?
No one ever will make a law how to preserve something.
If you buy it, you can do what you want.
You can buy a Rembrandt and burn it.
-----
I didn't post this, because I want any government rules.
Again: i only thought there are some interesting ideas about how to treat cultural heritage.
And for me hot rods have the same value as a bugatti or a rembrandt or whatever.
And perhaps they deserve the same respect because of the PERSONAL AND ARTISTIC CREATIVE FREEDOM of the one who builded it.

 

I'm here because i want to learn something about hot rods.
I like the idea of building cars periodic correct.
Sometimes you must make a compromise.
And I asked myself how to treat with this.
Periodic correct is a simple rule.
If you say: Period before 1950 you would use no younger parts.
If you have to use younger parts: Mark it and document it.
So no one is missleaded.
Everything is clear.
That's an idea I saw in the charta I like.

 

The best way I am able to express my concerns about 'Creeping Legislation' in our hobby is to make a comparison to those buildings that have been declared "Historic Landmarks", or similar, & the current owner(s) have to endure all kinds of 'red-tape' to do even necessary repairs, let alone modern upgrades, to the plumbing in the bathroom(assuming that the building actually had one originally! LOL!!) If we had, say, a Hot Rod built originally in the 1950s with drum brakes & a single master cylinder, would it get to the point that we couldn't replace those 70+ yr old rusted steel brake lines & that single master cylinder with a dual unit & modern stainless(or equivalent) brake lines for safety, if only because it detracted from the "Historical Originality"?

 

Yes, I must correct me.
In case of historic buildings it's a problem. It's the same over here.
You can burn the Rembrandt but you can not upgrade the plumbing.

 

I can't even focus long enough to read the entire post #1, let alone follow any of these rules.


BUT Steffen has an interesting point here. And a lot of people saying that they don't like "rules" are the same who decree something to be OT or cut and pasting the HAMB "rules" when a FNG posts something they don't like. So maybe yo DO like rules, just not someone else's' rules.

Oh BTW, I have an old German motorcycle. Every time I'm tooling around, just having a great time, getting a big smile on my face, I swear I can hear it say "Stoppen-Z za schmiling. Zis issen seriouz bizznezz. Nine funzy allowed! Schnell!"

 

What brand's the cycle?
It must say: Hör auf zu grinsen, das ist eine ernste Sache hier!

What means: FNG?

 

70's BMW (love that thing!)

FNG (fucking new guy). It's leftover military slang. Once around long enough I think people graduate to "live grenade handler". Then something else.

 

I saw this car here >>>
and I wonder how this could be a traditional hot rod.
So I asked, is this periodic correct?
And everybody said to me: Hot Rodding means build what you want.
Please not to missunderstand: Everybody should build a car how he likes.
And I have no problem with someone putting a new engine in an old car.
I love such projects.
But it is not periodic correct, or am I wrong?
So where is the problem to say this and to put it in the correct forum.

A thing that I also not understand is this fake stuff like the Oldsmobile look-a-like valve covers.
Why make a look-a-like, when it's obviously a total other engine?
But perhaps this is a question of taste and not a question of periodic correct?

 

Looks like your son does not like it ... ;-)



Sorry for the nazishit. It's only a historic reference.

 

By the way: BMW builds absolutley high-tech motorcycles the last years!
Advanced design. Crazy. 20 Years ago BMW was the brand for old guys.
The completly changed their image and their products.
I don't know if they are sold in USA but when you got the possibilty to visit a BMW Shop - do it!

 

I applaud your interest in American hot rodding. Unfortunately, you can't put it in a "box". There are tons of different styles and eras, even in the traditional hot rod circle. Some trends were geographic and mainly done, say on the east or west coast. They could have been done in exactly the same era, but different styles altogether. There are some great books out there on the history of hot rodding that might help you put things in perspective. I'm sure it's hard to understand fully the culture of a society half way around the globe and 50+ years ago. Keep reading on it.

Oh and we don't understand fake parts either.

As far as government goes, we have spent the last 200 years keeping them out of our business.

 

I didn't want to discuss about styles. It's hard to find a definition and harder to say it's this and this period as you mentioned.
But to say these wheels does not fit because they were produced after 19XX whatever is always possible.

Everybody in the thread I posted liked the fake parts.

We have "great" experience with the government not keeping out of our business for over 1200 years.
And I can tell you it is not funny ...

 

Yes, I know. I remember that thread really well. I strongly disagreed with you in the thread, and I'll explain why I feel that way. This is just my opinion, I don't speak for anyone else:

That car (from the description) is a real Model A Roadster, all original steel, that was a race car in the 50's or 60's. It has a dropped axle, a rear end from a 50's car. It looks like the interior might be from it's racing days. The paint looks like it might be too (not the number on the door). It has old wheels and what looks like radial tires. It probably looks exactly like a lot of cars did that were put together by normal people in their back yard in the 1950's or 1960's and drag raced or ran on salt flats. Some people say the "iconic" hot rod is a hi-boy Roadster more or less just like that car. All of this makes it an incredibly "traditional car", in my opinion.

Yes, it does have a new crate engine, and a modern T5 standard transmission. So I don't find those things particularly interesting. But the original poster is an enthusiast who had just bought the car like that, and he himself may not have chosen the drivetrain if he would have built the car himself.

It's fantastic to see or read about "period hot rods", that only use antique parts made before 19XX". Those by far are my favorites. But realistically, a lot of people are building cars on a budget, with limited time, and their goal is to build one and drive it around to have fun. They are doing the best they can to keep things traditional, but sometimes they use components that aren't strictly "period", so they can "get the job done". So, for me, I still see these efforts as traditional.

Now the more interesting point, Steffen, which you might not have read enough threads to really understand, is that a lot of other "members" here on HAMB agree with you. They get really "loud" and rude with their opinions about someone else's car/stuff not belonging here, BUT they themselves just might have cars/stuff that wouldn't be found on "period correct hot rods"; disc brakes, power steering, air conditioning, radial tires, electronic ignitions, aluminum wheels, billet aluminum components, crate motors, new transmission, stuff from catalogs like "Speedway-Jegs", $50,000 paint jobs, cars that are more valuable than a normal person's house, or cars that fall into another genre like street rods, muscle cars or race cars. (Show me the teenager or vet just home from WWII that had any of that stuff, and I'll eat my hat.)

My point is that a lot of them are hypocrites, or at least don't say anything negative when THEIR friends or established members post "off topic" stuff, but if a new person or someone they don't like comes on with virtually the same stuff, they are the first to scream "that's not traditional", "that's OT!", "you don't belong here!", "go F yourself!"

It's human nature, I know, but it pisses me off. Steffen, I'm not saying you are acting like this, actually I respect that your interested in having a civil discussion, which also can be an anomaly here.

You also don't mind long posts, so I have tricked you into reading this one all the way through. I feel a sense of satisfaction for that.

 

You don't need to trick me, I have no problem with long posts. I can read and especially, when it's such a good written and interesting text with a good argumentation.
I didn't remember that you were on of the guys I discussed in that thread, sorry.
I understand all what you mean with "you might not have read enough threads" and "hypocrites".
I know this also from many other carscenes. Something that is really a problem, not only that it pisses you off.
It's a problem because you fake history in this case.
I'm really interested in automotive history and it's no problem that you have parts on your car they are nonperiodic.
The problem is, when you tell they are.
So without detailed knowledge you believe it.
Do you understand what I mean?
I know enough guys using nonperiodic stuff and telling: "That's correct. This was availible that time"
Only because they are too coward to say. This is from this year and this is from this year, it doesn't fit, but i like it more.
And because of this I found the charta remarkable in this point:

Article 9. Planning:
Any work undertaken on a historic vehicle should be planned systematically and documented in an appropriate manner. These records should be maintained with the vehicle.

++++++++++++

I always try having a civil discussion.
But you know - cars - sometimes for people are very impotant ...
Often they also can not separate between:
"Your car is not periodic correct"
"I don't like your car"
and
"I don't like you".
------

"He offended my car" - one of the most stupid things I ever heared...

 

I think so. You take issue with the "fake" valve covers, and perhaps someone passing their engine off as authentic. Maybe the fake number on the door made to look old. And also people in general using new things and still insisting they are being "traditional", or "period correct

 

In this case I don't understand the fake covers because it's too obviously that the engine is not periodic.
So why to fake it?

 

Fake patina makes me nauseous.

 

Steffen , you make a very good point. Eloquently, I might add.
Living in an historic German town here in Ohio I understand the importance of representing history accurately. The problem always is funding and safety always interfering. Whether it is an old car or an old building.
In reality, it would be impossible to find an historic structure that hasn't been changed for those two reasons.
I would guess that very few Hotrod's are 100% accurate. Something on them is a later version.
In the states calling something traditional or historically accurate is really a loose term. Incorrect? Yes. But mostly accepted.
Don't let labels bother you.
Too many opinions are readily available.


..

 

Steffen : A major part of the problem with understanding Americans(& not just "Hotrodding") is that assemble any 10 of us, pose a question or problem, & you will most likely wind up with at least 20 different opinions, & that's on a simple question, never mind on a complex one!! LOL! We drive even ourselves nearly insane(& we are used to it!), let alone an observer from outside our 'culture' trying to make 'sense' of us! Suggestion : Don't even try ; just settle back & enjoy the show; even join in if you find a spot that you 'like'; new inmates are always welcome!

 

@Petejoe :
I love Zoar!




"The community was founded in 1817 by German religious dissenters as a utopian community, which survived until 1853."

Well that sounds crazy.... I like it.

 

Steffen : Just consider : There is another thread here that poses the relatively simple question :"what is the perfect red paint color?" , with, so far, 114 responses! I rest my case! LOL!! ["Red Paint" now up to 125!!]