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horsepower

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Jimv, Oct 4, 2009.

  1. Jimv
    Joined: Dec 5, 2001
    Posts: 2,925

    Jimv
    Member

    Can someone fill me in on how come the new cars of today have so much horsepower for a medium displacement?? Years ago a 396 with a single 4 barrel had only 325 hp! alot but not alot for 1966.Now they have some v-6 jap motor & they say there 300HP!!
    new corvettes are 650HP!!
    Are they rating it differant? why so much now a days?
    JimV
     
  2. speedtool
    Joined: Oct 15, 2005
    Posts: 2,541

    speedtool
    BANNED

    Computers have a lot to do with it, I'm sure.
     
  3. stuart in mn
    Joined: Nov 22, 2007
    Posts: 1,729

    stuart in mn
    Member

    40 years of engineering and development. That new Corvette has a supercharger, too.
     
  4. metalshapes
    Joined: Nov 18, 2002
    Posts: 10,737

    metalshapes
    Tech Editor

    Horsepower is a calculated from Torque and RPM.

    Modern engines rev a lot higher.
     
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  5. Dreddybear
    Joined: Mar 31, 2007
    Posts: 5,926

    Dreddybear
    Member

    Closer tolerances, Higher RPM, Higher compressions, computer controlled ignitions, variable timing, etc...
     
  6. Buick59
    Joined: Mar 3, 2001
    Posts: 1,994

    Buick59
    Member
    from in a house

    The way they were measured and reported then were different. Also, ow long ago was the 396 introduced? It can't compare to 6.0 or 7.0L GM LS1 or LS6.

    I have a 5.3L LS1 in my garage that after a cam,head, exhaust swap pulled at 441hp at 6,200 rpm. And thats from a 327 equivalent. Later it was upgraded with a new intake and throttlebody and picked up nearly 40 more HP.
     
  7. btmatt
    Joined: Nov 15, 2006
    Posts: 227

    btmatt
    Member

    Today's engines operate much more efficiently. All of the exotic parts we sought in the early seventies, high flow aluminum heads, light weight rotating assemblies, high lift roller cams, etc. are common place on factory motors.

    Think about it. I have the hots to buy a GM LS7 engine for an off-topic car because of the sum of the parts. Aluminum block, CNC ported 12' heads, titanium rods and valves, forged crank, dry sump oiling and fuel injection for ~12K. No way you could build this engine for this price 10 years ago and get a warranty to boot.
     
  8. Truckedup
    Joined: Jul 25, 2006
    Posts: 3,863

    Truckedup
    Member

    Yes,and the all aluminum engines weight about 400 pounds ready to go? I've heard the LS doesn't need a radial cam to make that power,very streetable.In a few more years it'll be the "SBC" of choice.
     
  9. HotRodBen1987
    Joined: Jul 29, 2009
    Posts: 691

    HotRodBen1987
    BANNED

    True, along with many years of engineering, newer technology with closer tolerances, upgrades in materials and processes, etc. The newer motors such as the GM LS motors turn more RPMs but driving them feels different to me. Don't get me wrong, they're powerful but they don't seem to have the off-idle hit that the older motors have. Just my opinion though.
     
  10. Truckedup
    Joined: Jul 25, 2006
    Posts: 3,863

    Truckedup
    Member

    That is true to some degree because of the computer engine management controls must deal with part throttle emissions.A non emissions LS will be different.
     
  11. Prostreet32
    Joined: Jun 17, 2009
    Posts: 145

    Prostreet32
    Member
    from Indy

    That's because of the computer controlled timing (advance/retard) sensors that relay the info back and forth, they idol smoother,..but don't be confused, they are very advance internally, exotic materials, roller cams, variable timing,..
    ( but I'll stay with my large CFM.carbs, high lift thumpty-bumb cam shafts, and vibrate the pictures off the walls, when I leave at 7am. to go to car shows,...and I'll go ahead and pay for the terrible 'fuel-mileage' too,..)
    Because I love "OLD-SCHOOL" hotrods,..( but it is very 'humbling', to be "dusted" by a Z06, that idols like my pick-up truck,..Oh-Well,..I still laugh "all the way to the bank" mine is "Free-and-Clear" of payments, and "way-cheaper Insurance",...
    so that 'second' I loose in the 'quarter mile' is OK....)
     
  12. Engine management, 40 more years of cylinder head development and better quality parts and machining.
     
  13. Prostreet32
    Joined: Jun 17, 2009
    Posts: 145

    Prostreet32
    Member
    from Indy

    What amazes me is the "High-compression rations" they utilize for supercharged applications,..( ZO6) and LS9's are very incredible; ( I really don't think they will last to the warrantee expiration though because of the "volitility"; and the "liability- disclaimers" in the "warrantee" completely get-around "spirited usages"...
     
  14. Prostreet32
    Joined: Jun 17, 2009
    Posts: 145

    Prostreet32
    Member
    from Indy

    But, all you guys are right,...the new technology is awsome.
     
  15. Prostreet32
    Joined: Jun 17, 2009
    Posts: 145

    Prostreet32
    Member
    from Indy

    at such 'high-prices',...95% of people cannot afford the technology though
     
  16. mondtster
    Joined: Aug 7, 2009
    Posts: 8

    mondtster
    Member

    I think that has a lot to do with it, but let's not overlook the other major advancements that have taken place.

    1. Head design. Heads on new cars are light years ahead of what was on old motors. All the auto manufacturers have learned a lot about how to make heads work much more efficiently.

    2. EFI. You can take even an old school motor and make it perform well when it is properly tuned for every given scenario. That's something that you will never get with a carburetor.

    3. Much tighter tolerances and the ability to more accurately cast parts.


    I believe that the EPA and their stringent emissions laws forced the manufacturers to develop much of this stuff faster than they would have otherwise. I think we would have gotten here eventually even without the EPA's involvement but probably not at this rate.
     
  17. HotRodBen1987
    Joined: Jul 29, 2009
    Posts: 691

    HotRodBen1987
    BANNED

    I agree...my buddy has a LS1 camaro with big cam, forged HC pistons, headers, tune, and 150 shot that also hits a mean lick, runs 10.70s in the quarter on drag radials, and still gets 18 mpg though. Pretty appealing, no place in a hot rod IMO
     
  18. Truckedup
    Joined: Jul 25, 2006
    Posts: 3,863

    Truckedup
    Member

    A older slow Z06 Vette.Remember this vehicle has full emissions equipment,AC,and all that.Seems so non dramatic............Non traditional car and engine,but a nice motor never the less.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6EiNFiLhV0
     
  19. Big Blue Car
    Joined: Dec 9, 2006
    Posts: 187

    Big Blue Car
    Member
    from Orlando FL

    Back to one of the OP’s questions, I am pretty sure they way the measure the HP from the factory is different today from back in the day. I think the 60’s #’s were done with no accessories (for a theoretical max HP), and I think the factory #’s now are with accessories including emissions.
    <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:eek:ffice" /><o:p> </o:p>
    I have been a big fan of the LS motors, I have a LS2 in my everyday corvette and I built the LS1 in my 50. After all the research to build my LS1 it is amazing on how advanced the LS1 motor is compared to the typical SBC. First and I think major point is the heads, they are something like 12deg heads vs the typ 23deg (I remember when the 18deg heads were the Sh!t). They have huge cathedral intake ports and are crazy efficient. Just look a stock LS1 head and compare it to a high end SBC race head and you will see that the LS1 is the way to go. Next is the block and tolerances, building it was not much different but everything stays where it belongs all the time. The LS1’s have 6 bolt main (4 bolts and cross bolts in the side of the block). Add in the fact that they have roller cams and the computer it is amazing.
    <o:p> </o:p>
    They have crank triggers, cam sensors, MAP (manifold absolute pressure) sensors, air intake sensors (measures intake air temp), knock sensors, ETC… all of which the computer is getting information from constantly as the engine runs. With this information the motor is always in tune no matter what. This is something that cannot be done with a typical carb and distributer.
    <o:p> </o:p>
    Think about this, there is probably more computing power in the modern car computer than is in the space shuttle.
     
  20. fab32
    Joined: May 14, 2002
    Posts: 13,987

    fab32
    Member Emeritus

    ONLY IN YOUR DREAMS:rolleyes:

    FRANK
     
  21. arkiehotrods
    Joined: Mar 9, 2006
    Posts: 5,767

    arkiehotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    The way horsepower is reported changed in 1972. Before then, it was gross brake horsepower, but '72 and newer are net brake horsepower. The difference is about a 23% reduction in rated horsepower, meaning a '66 325 horse 396 (the engine in my first car) would be only 250 horse using the rating system in place since 1972.

    That makes the horsepower figures in modern cars even more impressive, especially since the driveability is also greatly improved.

    Most of the responses to this have mentioned computers, and in my opinion that is the single most significant reason we're seeing the horsepower ratings as high as they are. Lots of sensors and an ECM that can make air/fuel adjustments instantaneously at every RPM, every atmospheric condition, etc, will make a more powerful, more fuel efficient, and even cleaner engine.
     
  22. Buick59
    Joined: Mar 3, 2001
    Posts: 1,994

    Buick59
    Member
    from in a house

    Thats where you are a 180 degrees backwards wrong on this.

    My buddy who owns a salvage yard is overflowing with the the 5.3L LS engines. He is selling them for 500 bucks a pop! You pick it out of a Suburban for 500 bones with the ECU and buy a harness for it for around 1,200 and get tuned properly with out touching a thing and keeping it all stock you have an engine that prices as follows.

    Engine 500
    Harness 1,200
    Tune 500

    Total 2,200 bucks you have an engine that runs and will give you approx 20mpg on the hi-way.
     
  23. Buick59
    Joined: Mar 3, 2001
    Posts: 1,994

    Buick59
    Member
    from in a house

    If anyone gives a shit here is an excerpt from an article I wrote about the 5.3L engine. I wont mention the magazine name cause they suck balls. But the info is 100% accurate. I was there and did the project.

    In the 11 years since the LS-series of small-block Chevys was introduced, they have been factory-installed in everything from Corvettes to passenger cars, trucks and SUVs. It's the latter that we want to focus our attention on in this article.

    Among the advantages of these engines are factory aluminum heads, lightweight composite intakes and in some cases aluminum blocks. Many, such as the 5.3L (RPO LM7) have a cast-iron block with aluminum heads and composite intake. While the LS1 has received tons of attention, the 5.3L V-8 is of a lesser-known quantity. Literally millions of these cast-iron 5.3s have seen service in vehicles like Suburbans and Silverados.

    For all practical purposes, the Gen III 5.3 is nearly equal to its older brother, the 5.7 LS1. In fact, the iron-block 5.3 can be bored out to 5.7, and any performance mod done to an LS1 can be done to the smaller 5.3. But that's not the purpose of this article. The goal here is to take a salvaged engine that is in good shape and add a few items to open up its nostrils so it can breathe a bit easier. We were curious to see what kind of power it would make in stock trim and then with aftermarket goodies-in this instance, heads and a cam.

    Before the engine even started, the OE computer has to be re-flashed to remove the vehicle anti-theft codes and other codes that will hinder the tuning. It turned out we ran into some problems with the ECM. The engine was originally a fly-by-wire setup and the ECM that came from the Suburban was programmed as such. After re-flashing the computer with the new engine tune, the ECM still resisted. After several hours of tuning and re-tuning, we went out and got another ECM that was set up for a vehicle with a cable-actuated throttle. Once that was done, the new ECM took the tune and ran beautifully. Fortunately, a friend nearby had a cable throttle body 5.3 with the ECM sitting in the back of a parts truck. That saved a little over $200 from having to go to a dealership and buy one.

    Once the engine was up and running properly, a pull was made using the factory tune. The engine pulled 344 hp at 5,000 rpm and 370 lb-ft of torque at 4,300. That's pretty impressive for a boneyard truck engine. After that, the ECM was flashed and another pull was made. This time the numbers were different: 357 hp at 5,400 rpm and 380 lb-ft at 4,300.


    Specs on the Stock 5.3L
    5.3L Iron Block
    Years1999-2007
    RPO #LM7
    Displacement5.3 liters (325.2 ci)
    Bore3.780
    Stroke
    3.622
    Compression9.5:1
    5.3L Aluminum Cylinder heads
    Intake Ports200cc
    Exhaust Ports70cc
    Intake Valve1.89
    Exhaust Valve1.55
    Combustion Chamber61cc
     
  24. I know it's not "traditional" and I'm not a "Vette-Guy" but John Lingenfelter was one of my favorite "Hot-Rodders"... and even he caved into turbo's eventually. I remember a Camaro/Firebird challenge back in the 90's with the LT1 engines... everyone had "supercharged" theirs... not John... his was a naturally aspirated "383" than ran close to or over 180mph and cleaned their clocks... they called foul though because he didn't have a catalytic converter on the car... he said "fine... I'll bolt on a converter and a supercharger and we'll REALLY see how badly I whoop your asses"... or something like that. (Going purely off memory here)

    0-200 in 16.23... on 93 Octane :eek:



    Yeah... the new stuff is great... but it'll never be like "hey open up the hood and let's take a peek" kinda' cool like the old engines again. Then again... that's why they make hood sides. :D

    Now back to your regularly scheduled programming... :)
     
  25. chaos10meter
    Joined: Feb 21, 2007
    Posts: 2,191

    chaos10meter
    Member
    from PA.

    I think if you put one of them giant fart can mufflers on you can pick up a few hundred HP just with that .
     
  26. LSGUN
    Joined: May 26, 2007
    Posts: 1,260

    LSGUN
    Member
    from TX

    I daily drive a 2000 Z28 (LS1), I haven't done anything radical, long tube headers, no cats, true duals dumped before the rear end through an x-pipe and sweet thunder mufflers. Took all the EGR and AIR bullshit off, it's a fun car. The LS engines have a very unique sound due to the firing order and the aluminum block *excluding 5.3, 6.0, etc.* so they tend to be raspy sounding at WOT.

    They have already became the "SBC", countless engine mounts for them, swap headers, stand alone systems, etc. They can make TONS of power for little money invested and they're reliable and get good mileage. So people are swapping them into anything and everything. I believe someone on here swapped a 5.3 into a '60 Cadillac?

    I have a buddy who recently ran a 11.2 in Hobbs NM altitude with a '98 Trans Am 138k miles on the longblock, MS4 cam "239/242 .649" .609 111 LSA", factory 806 heads "the worst on an LS1 '98 only", headers, catback, 9" Moser rear end, six speed, 100 shot of nitrous and he can't drive. So he ran a low 11 with a tired 138k cam only LS1 and shot of juice at that high altitude. If thats not impressive...
     
  27. Big Blue Car
    Joined: Dec 9, 2006
    Posts: 187

    Big Blue Car
    Member
    from Orlando FL

    Arkiehotrods &#8211; your post above sums up what I was trying to say&#8230;
    Buick 59 &#8211; I agree with your points on a reasonable motor. I actually have a 6.0L and a 5.3 in the garage right now. They are reasonable, and a ton of parts are out there, oh by the way for my project I was able to get a harness and a computer already tuned for $600 (with you deal on the motors and my deal on a harness & computer someone could be running for $1,100
     
  28. BigChief
    Joined: Jan 14, 2003
    Posts: 2,066

    BigChief
    Member


    Well.....I'll bet the cars are catching up! Check out this article.

    http://www.popsci.com/node/31716

    Enjoy!
     
  29. Buick59
    Joined: Mar 3, 2001
    Posts: 1,994

    Buick59
    Member
    from in a house

    Can you still get a harness and computer at that price? If so LET ME KNOW!
     
  30. OT/ I know - but that 5.3 iron block LS based motor is the best bang for the buck by far. The most widely installed engine makes it the most common and cheapest out of salvadge yards. rated @ 285 HP. & With a Cam, springs, headers and converter to match an other 100 plus hp is just too easy. Swapped one into a OT K-5 Blazer.

    The easiest way is to grab everything from the donor, from the fuel pump forward, complete motor, DBW gas pedal, trans, and front accessories, teed heater hose , harness and ECM. You can have the VATS only unlocked in the ecm for under 100.00 and run it as is or drop 500 for a tune that really wakes it up! The factory harness is pretty easy to make stand alone and into only a 4-5 wire hookup. Run a 04 vette fuel filter.

    Hint on harnesses (save a grand) is to get two damaged ones, they are next to zero dollars from the salvadge yard especially if they know ya!
     

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