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Hot Rods Homebuilt Fuel Injection Part II

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by MR MOPAR, Dec 12, 2019.

  1. SUNBEAM - I use a wide band gas analyzer and a Dial-A-Jet to tune on the fly (for temp, barometric pressure, humidity) with a street driven all-mechanical Hilborn.....along with several design mods, including a custom barrel valve. Idles very well, unbelievable throttle response and mid-range performance.

    may 17 2009.7.JPG
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2019
    Kan Kustom, Chucky and loudbang like this.
  2. sunbeam
    Joined: Oct 22, 2010
    Posts: 5,279

    sunbeam
    Member

    I just thought with a throttle position sensor and maybe map sensor with a wide band O2 sensor some sharp computer guy could make it control the spill valve for a very streetable unit.
     
    loudbang likes this.
  3. It's very streetable as-is. I wanted a fully mechanical set up, not a hybrid, pseudo-EFI unit.
     
    loudbang likes this.
  4. MR MOPAR
    Joined: Jun 7, 2011
    Posts: 116

    MR MOPAR
    Member
    from california

    Hi

    What is minimum Procon pump that will support an atomizer jet on a stock motor?

    GPM/GPH/PSI?

    Just one question at a time.

    Looks like Procon pumps come in either round 'clamp on' or 3 bolt flange bolt on style.

    Was told by a kid at one of these fuel injection places Procon runs the 'wrong direction'.

    A little preview of what will happen when you call Hillborn now.I'm sorry Holley Fuel Injection.

    Happy holiday!
     
    loudbang likes this.
  5. MR MOPAR
    Joined: Jun 7, 2011
    Posts: 116

    MR MOPAR
    Member
    from california

    Carburetor Systems booklet 1961 by Don Francesco.

    Has article on Scott fuel injection.

    Says you can use 1/2 V belt.Stromberg jets for injectors.

    Explains difference between vane type pump and positive displacement.

    Scott is vane type.Hillborn positive displacement.

    They made systems that ran at 35 PSI and 200 GPH.That is hours not minutes.

    So.That is a good starting point.

    Happy holidays!
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2019
    loudbang likes this.
  6. 28dreyer
    Joined: Jan 23, 2008
    Posts: 1,167

    28dreyer
    Member
    from Minnesota

    BIG WARNING about Injection pumps.

    BE CERTAIN there is no end thrust pushing on your pump from whatever drive you use, direct off the cam or belt driven.

    Direct drive are susceptible to wiping out if for instance, you push the pump in tight to the drive axially, and don’t then move it out fifteen to twenty thousands of an inch before clamping securely.
     
    loudbang likes this.
  7. MR MOPAR
    Joined: Jun 7, 2011
    Posts: 116

    MR MOPAR
    Member
    from california

    Thanks Dreyer

    Will do my best to remember that.

    The action item is picking out a Procon pump to start with.

    Here is the page for Procon Standard Vane Pumps.

    Which one? How many GPH? What PSI? It will be driven at 1/2 engine speed.

    http://www.proconpumps.com/brands/Standard-Vane-Pump.html

    Sort of calculated car goes 100 mph and get 5 miles to the gallon.

    That is 20 GPH.Pump runs at half speed so that makes it 40 GPH pump needed at least.

    But there is loss of PSI and GPH because it is constant flow and has return line bleeding

    those off.So.Kinda stumped at the moment.

    So the gallons per hour do go up.

    Figured it takes X amount of PSI to make injector atomize at idle.What is X? Minimum PSI?

    Procon pumps come in 3/8" and 1/2" lines.That comes into play.

    Appreciate any help here.

    Happy holidays
     
  8. RichFox
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 10,020

    RichFox
    Member

    Post #15 has some of those numbers
     
  9. MR MOPAR
    Joined: Jun 7, 2011
    Posts: 116

    MR MOPAR
    Member
    from california

    Thank you Rich

    Rebuild kit for Procon pump $35 brand spanking new from Edco California.

    The kit will make the right body into a 'new' pump to your order.

    So.You need a core and a kit.

    You can pick from 4 kinds of seal materials.

    Series 1,2 and 3 go up to 140 GPH. You can order the PSI in a range up to 250 PSI.

    Series 4 goes up to 330 GPH.

    NOTE Big guy at one of the biggie fuel injection shops says vane type pumps will CAVITATE at

    higher RPM's.

    We will just live with to get moving on this.Fuel starvation could lead to detonation though so

    that makes things a little interesting.Will keep us awake and alert.

    Big guy said there is a chance of converting some oil pumps to fuel injection pumps.

    Help to have a machine shop or buddy with one though.

    Happy holidays
     
  10. Hi Mopar,
    Just keep reading and I’m sure you will figure things out.
    I am glad you are not giving up,,,,,good ideas come around all the time from people that don’t quit.
    I was wondering though,,,why don’t you just use a normal mechanical pump,,,,price?
    I have picked up several at swap meets for reasonable money.
    Here is the last one I purchased at Nashville,,I can’t remember if it was the auto fest or Stones river swap meet.
    I understand that California is much more expensive price wise,,,maybe I got lucky and the guy just liked the way I spoke to him.
    It is an Enderle 80A. -0
     

    Attached Files:

    saltflats likes this.
  11. RichFox
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 10,020

    RichFox
    Member

    This is a single air valve injector that I used on a 3 liter V6 in F/Fuel Streamliner in 2000. You can see the nozzles at Each port. If this had been a gas motor I would have put the nozzles high up away from the valves img56.JPG
     
    Desoto291Hemi likes this.
  12. MR MOPAR
    Joined: Jun 7, 2011
    Posts: 116

    MR MOPAR
    Member
    from california

    Thank you DeSoto 291 Hemi and Rich

    Things are falling into place here.

    'why don’t you just use a normal mechanical pump'

    Normal? Enderle and Kinsler used to sell a rotary vane pump.I have no idea why they don't anymore.

    We are going to pick up a Procon pump and then probably give it a break for awhile.

    Will keep pump around to remind us later to look into homebuilt fuel injection.

    Coming up is building a storage shed and general mechanics.

    Nothing real exciting.Will probably go at this real strong towards the end of next year.

    Rich

    That is nice part you made there.

    I like the safety yellow.

    Happy holidays!
     
  13. MR MOPAR
    Joined: Jun 7, 2011
    Posts: 116

    MR MOPAR
    Member
    from california

    We thought and we bought.

    Picked up a Procon pump.

    Series 2 brass body.Nitrile food grade seals.

    Single flat drive.Round with a flat side.Like the shafts on knobs.D shaped.

    It is 3 bolt flange type.100 GPH and 170 PSI.

    3/8" inlet and outlet ports.

    Will just keep pump around for the time being.

    Should start in on this racing project next year in the fall.Knock on wood!

    Happy holidays!
     
  14. RichFox
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 10,020

    RichFox
    Member

    Wrong pump. To small. Gonzales used a spline drive. I had to go to his place to get him to broach the drive I made for mine. Hilborn and others use hex drive. Not sure the set screw against a flat will drive an injector pump that's working. Go back through your thread and read what people are trying to tell you. Do the math. You need a better understanding of your project. PS here are two Competition 14595724_10207240859169298_2801358769509634068_n.jpg Coupes,
     
    Desoto291Hemi likes this.
  15. Hi Rich,
    You guys that race the salt are something.
    Man,,,I can’t imagine going that fast !

    Can just anyone go there and watch the trials when you guys are there ?
    That would be cool !

    Tommy
     
  16. MR MOPAR
    Joined: Jun 7, 2011
    Posts: 116

    MR MOPAR
    Member
    from california

    Thank you Rich

    Everything will turn out just fine.

    Here are some pics of the pump.

    Procon Pump Ours 1.jpg

    Procon Pump Ours Top View.jpg
     
  17. Hi Mopar,

    Those pics look good,,,it is a pretty decent pump seems like.
    I am like Rich,,,I hope the flat works okay on the drive,,,,it is a pretty good load at top pressure.
    By the way,,,,keep trying,,,no one knows what will work out until tried and tested.

    Tommy
     
  18. MR MOPAR
    Joined: Jun 7, 2011
    Posts: 116

    MR MOPAR
    Member
    from california

    Thank you Tommy

    The pumps do come with something they call a 'double flat'.It is in the part numbers guide.

    Our pump is a Series 2 one.

    Series 1,2 and 3 are the same capacity.

    Series 4 is a little heftier pump that goes up to 330 GPH.

    Weighs 1/2 pound more.

    Edco quoted one series 1 or 2 pump to me for $83.

    I THINK they quoted a series 4 at $130.

    We are happy with our little pump no matter how this plays out.

    Seems like it easier to think about with something in front of you.

    Here are two charts Edco sent me.

    Here is link to their vane pump page.

    http://www.proconpumps.com/brands/Standard-Vane-Pump.html
     

    Attached Files:

  19. MR MOPAR
    Joined: Jun 7, 2011
    Posts: 116

    MR MOPAR
    Member
    from california

    This book sort of is handy for building a homebuilt fuel injection system.

    SA Books Super Power from 1977.

    '77 and the 80's was sort of the highwater mark for the 440,454 and 460 engines.

    After that things just sort of looped with little kinda boring or weird improvements.

    Book says Super Power.Most people say 'Big Horsepower'.

    Actually big horsepower motors are sort of 50's 60's methods getting it to turn 7000-7500 RPM.Making the horsepower high up and making little horsepower and torque below that.

    Anyhow.Here are some pic's.

    Book has good description of fuel injection.Tips.

    View attachment 4519625

    Super Power Table of Contents.jpg Super Power SA Book.jpg
     
  20. rocknwrench
    Joined: Sep 24, 2017
    Posts: 28

    rocknwrench

    if youre stuck on running mechanical injection , why not buy a used sysem from a sprint car guy (they are everywhere) , and adapt parts to your intake and engine? gotta be cheaper and easier.
     
  21. ekimneirbo
    Joined: Apr 29, 2017
    Posts: 2,001

    ekimneirbo
    Member
    from Brooks Ky

    Are the seals in the Procon pump capable of working with gasoline and ethanol ?
     
  22. RichFox
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 10,020

    RichFox
    Member

    Yes all are welcome to watch or walk the pits and visit with racers. I think it's around $10 or so to watch. Visit the SCTA web site for info and dates.
     
  23. RichFox
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 10,020

    RichFox
    Member

    "The pumps do come with something they call a 'double flat'.It is in the part numbers guide."
    You could easily make your pump into a double flat and use a blade drive. Like the early BL Hilborn pumps. Still think the volume and pressure is low for auto use. Maybe OK for the Corvair.[ We use these guys pump. http://ragefuelsystems.us/category/products/top-fuel-and-funny-car/[/QUOTE]
     
  24. MR MOPAR
    Joined: Jun 7, 2011
    Posts: 116

    MR MOPAR
    Member
    from california

    Thanks

    'why not buy a used sysem?'

    Quick answer.

    Miss out on building all these parts? No way.

    When I says building.That is only if a GOOD used one is priced sky high.

    Here is list of parts you get to get together.

    'A mechanical fuel injection system from Hilborn includes the manifold, nozzles, barrel valve, and hoses. The main jet, housed in the primary bypass valve, is also included along with 2 additional jets, or pills. To complete the system, you will need ram tubes, fuel pump, fuel filter, fuel shutoff valve and, possibly, a hi-speed bypass valve. If Hilborn cannot supply a fuel pump drive, you will need to fashion a drive for the pump to run at 1/2 crankshaft speed.'

    That is from Hillborn technical support/Fuel Injection Overview.

    Once again let me say.Hillborn company under Stu Hillborn? Great! Under Holley? They

    ain't getting a dime from us! Holley carb parts still? Maybe.Will look on Ebay for older

    packages first.Have sort of gotten off Holley carbs lately anyhow.Old other makes.

    Happy holidays!
     
  25. MR MOPAR
    Joined: Jun 7, 2011
    Posts: 116

    MR MOPAR
    Member
    from california

    Will respond/comment on other post later this afternoon.

    Not getting alerts when somebody posts.

    Happy holidays!
     
  26. RichFox
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 10,020

    RichFox
    Member

    Typical pump drive on an engine Hilborn doesn't support, upload_2019-12-22_17-24-30.jpeg Pulleys are from OHC cam drive and junk yard scorched.
     
    Desoto291Hemi likes this.
  27. patsurf
    Joined: Jan 18, 2018
    Posts: 482

    patsurf

    junk yard 'scorched'--are they hot?(stolen...)
     
  28. RichFox
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 10,020

    RichFox
    Member

    They were stock on an engine I ran in my roadster, I replaced them with adjustable pulleys on the Lotus 907 motor. Speed Shop owner asked me why I didn't just buy new pulleys from him. For $75. All Cam belt drives I have seen use 3/8 pitch. And belts are much cheaper from industrial supply than race shops.
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2019
    Desoto291Hemi likes this.
  29. grimmfalcon138
    Joined: Jan 14, 2010
    Posts: 164

    grimmfalcon138
    Member
    from az

    I'm not a fuel injection expert, but I work with procon pumps on a daily basis. I personally don't feel these pumps will make a good choice as a fuel pump. The service life is relatively short, they are not very chemical resistant and the rear seal/bearing are prone to leak. Not trying to rain on anybody's parade, just thought I'd save you some hassle.
     
    loudbang likes this.
  30. Hey Rich,
    Now that is an innovative engine build there.
    Very impressive !
    Is that belt drive running two pumps there ?

    Tommy
     

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