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History Holman-moody the history

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by frank spittle, Mar 18, 2011.

  1. Tom S. in Tn.
    Joined: Jan 16, 2011
    Posts: 1,108

    Tom S. in Tn.
    Member

    If there were any way to have known how people have valued limited run cars and parts for racing, would you ever have taken a chance of tearing any of it up racing it?

    Over the past year, I learned the original engine out of the Thunderbolt we raced was stolen, and not just once but twice. The first time from the second owner I was on the team with in 74', and again by thieves in the night from the next guy sometime later in the decade.

    The 427 and 428 parts I used were mostly given to me after replacements could no longer be found around 70'.
    We bought a whole ex Brandon & Turnage tp in 76' for a Bantam style econo altered with both manifolds for $500.
    Wonder what present value of that is today?

    YG on the Chicago exchange still close to $1,850 today, silver $45.
    Wonder what a 64' lightweight is right now per troy oz.?
    Wonder if you could syndicate or split one up to several investors like a race horse?? Is this ever done?
    Tom S.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2011
  2. 64Cyclone
    Joined: Aug 30, 2009
    Posts: 1,496

    64Cyclone
    Member

    We used to see a 70 Going Thing Mustang at the PFCA events in Columbus in the 80s & 90s...so that wasn't the real deal?
     
  3. Dave Lyall
    Joined: Jan 3, 2010
    Posts: 104

    Dave Lyall
    Member


    That was the real '70, but now it is gone.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2011
  4. Dave Lyall
    Joined: Jan 3, 2010
    Posts: 104

    Dave Lyall
    Member

    The '62 was a production Galaxy sport coupe. It was originally Paul Harvey's Demonstrator, and he turned it over to Jack Gray and myself to replace Jack's '61 Demo we had been racing. We got it ready to race in 1 week, by installing the complete suspension and driveline from Jack's '61, Holman & Moody 390 and all. The 390 was .060" over, so it was almost a 406, and we were immediately competitive with the car at Detroit. We built a blueprinted 406 as soon as we could, and when completed we put the H&M engine and 406 drive line back in the '61 and it was sold retail and went back on the street.

    We defeated all the other Fords, including the lightweight 2-doors at the '62 pre-nationals show at Detroit, and lost to Frank Sanders 409 in the finals. (A good enough story about drag strip bias for another posting sometime) The '63 was a factory lightweight, and was the car Les Ritchey drove at Pomona. I had everybody covered at Indy, and would have won S/S but Farmer Dismuke, responding to a protest by the Ramchargers, disqualified me for having washers under my front ball joints.

    The previous picture of the Falcon was taken in 1984, after Bret Hajack owned it. It is not period-correct, having been cut on by a series of owners after me. I posted a picture below taken in very early 1965 during the shake-down runs. This car, with only the Hi-Riser, went to the semi finals at Indy in '65, losing to Gas Rhonda, who lost to Les Ritchey in the Final, both of them having Cammers, which I did too later.

    <O:pThe pinto was a very bright white, with Ford Blue in the stripes and the center of the hood. Notice Jack Roush watching the run. The Pinto, the 65 Falcon, '67 Fairlane, (which ran 10.09 et at 140 MPH at three different tracks in '67 with a carburated 427 Tunnel Port and many H&M parts) the '68 CJ and the '69 Boss are still are around. Don't know about the others.<O:p
     

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    Last edited: Sep 15, 2011
  5. frank spittle
    Joined: Jan 29, 2009
    Posts: 1,672

    frank spittle
    Member

    Really enjoying your posts Dave.
     
  6. genuine jack
    Joined: Mar 6, 2011
    Posts: 268

    genuine jack
    Member

    thanx dave .
    i'd really like to hear your story about losing to frank sanders at the '62 pre-nationals when you get a chance .

    jack
     
  7. 1971BB427
    Joined: Mar 6, 2010
    Posts: 6,899

    1971BB427
    Member
    from Oregon

    I've always been a diehard Chevy fan, but also always admired the Holman Moody cars for their contribution to racing of all kinds.
     
  8. Dave Lyall
    Joined: Jan 3, 2010
    Posts: 104

    Dave Lyall
    Member

    The Jack Gray &#8211; Bob Ford team was one of the consistent winners at Detroit Dragway during the early &#8216;60&#8217;s. The track owner, well-known to the track regulars, based on his enforcement of rules and application of track policy, was obviously biased against Ford products. Evidence of this, as related to me by acquaintances who were big players in the Detroit Street Racing Days of the mid-fifties, went back to that time. At the 1962 pre-nationals show at Detroit, our production 3850 Lb Galaxy consistently worked our way through the field, which included several of the newly-distributed lightweight 2 doors, and it came down to us and Arizona&#8217;s Frank Sanders in a 409 Chevrolet. During those days, we would ice down the intake manifold between rounds, which we had done just prior to the last run with Sanders. The engines heat would melt the ice, and cool the intake and carb to something about ambient temperature. As we were limited to 7&#8221; tires, and the track conditions were usually less than ideal, clumsy application of the throttle and clutch would result in &#8220;Blowing the tires off the car&#8221; I learned a technique, starting with my 230 HP &#8217;56 Ford, which only had 6.70 X 15 tires, (treaded tires about 4 to 5 inches wide) to make consistent and predictable runs. With this technique, using only the gas pedal I would hold the engine RPM to a number (predetermined by practice) and with the flag (and later with the Christmas tree) I would snap my foot off the clutch pedal, and not move the gas pedal until the car would lurch off the line, using only the kinetic energy in the flywheel to launch the car. That snap launch would set the car&#8217;s attitude and transfer weight to the rear tires. Then, I would roll into the gas pedal as fast as the track conditions would permit, sometimes not being wide open throttle until several feet to several yards past the starting line. I used that technique until we were allowed to use &#8220;slicks&#8221; in the Factory Experimental classes.

    At the &#8217;62 Detroit pre-nationals event, the track conditions were less than ideal, and my technique allowed a launch at about 2800 RPM. Just as they were bringing Frank and I out for the final run of the night to determine the overall winner, the track operator stopped us on the track just before the starting line, saying the track officials wanted to re-inspect our Ford. (But not Sander&#8217;s Chevrolet) Several officials crawled all over, under and inside the car, for about 10 minutes. Jack Gray thought this was another opportunity to re-ice down the intake manifold, and emptied our cooler over the intake. When we were finally cleared to go, I strapped in, re-fired and drove immediately to the starting line. We were not allowed to do burn-outs then, just short &#8220;chirps&#8221; as we approached the line. The time from the restart to the drop of the flag was only about a minute, not giving the engine time to warm or the intake manifold ice time to melt. So when I snapped the clutch, and started my roll into the gas, the cold engine and ice cold intake and carburetor would not take the gas, and the car coughed and died on the starting line. Ford accused us of cheating, and if so I would not pass tech, throwing the race after taking all the other Ford&#8217;s out. We offered to let Ford Racing impound the car, take it to their garage and inspect it. They somewhat believed us, and after that Bob Ford was put on the Ford drag council.

    Note: The track operator did the same thing during the first Thunderbolt (the green pilot car) Match Race against the Ramchargers in the &#8217;63 pre-nationals show, when Bill Humphreys was up on the Dodge 2-0, stopping the match and then let the Ramchargers make several solo tuning passes to reset their tune-up.

    <O:pWe were using Jahn&#8217;s cast aluminum pistons then fitted at .010&#8221; skirt clearance, and at Indy the car developed a knock. I was up all night inspecting the engine, and with no sleep I was treed&#8217; by Hayden Proffitt about as bad as I got Butch Leal the following year.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2011
  9. Dave Lyall
    Joined: Jan 3, 2010
    Posts: 104

    Dave Lyall
    Member

    All of the NASCAR cars, regardless of brand, are using a chassis, roll cage and suspension, that is the basic Holman & Moody design. That is why all of them use the Ford 9" full-floating rear axle, designed and pioneered by Holman & Moody. The impact Holman & Moody had on NASCAR racing cannot be overstated.
     
  10. spiderdeville
    Joined: Jun 30, 2007
    Posts: 1,134

    spiderdeville
    Member
    from BOGOTA,NJ

    but what about front steer cars ? and 63 chevy truck rear trailing arms ..or chrysler screw in ball joints ..the frame rails are fabricated

    like top fuel ..chrysler hemis and GMC blowers
     
  11. spiderdeville
    Joined: Jun 30, 2007
    Posts: 1,134

    spiderdeville
    Member
    from BOGOTA,NJ

    all nascar cars use GM saginaw 800 steering boxes
     
  12. genuine jack
    Joined: Mar 6, 2011
    Posts: 268

    genuine jack
    Member

    heeyyyy....mr. spidy . coming back to yank our chains again ? don't they have a G-rand M-a thread on the HAMB , where you can brag about your racing "successes" , such as they are ?

    just so you'll know - those fabricated frame rails were developed by HM , and were based on the '65 galaxie chassis .
    i don't know what they're using now - and haven't cared anything about nascar since brian boy ran nascar into the ground , culminating with the COT - but for years nascar chevys were using ford top-loader 4-speeds and ford 9 inch rears . i believe both the nash 5-speed and the liberty trans are based on the top loader , also .
    for years chevys were using ford based holman moody developed wheels .
    and you want to talk about smokey ? even he admitted he couldn't keep his 427 chevelle's engine together - and he was using chrysler rods , IIRC .
    and favoritism ? - we could write a book on all of the "favors" chevy and Gm have been given over the years - from big bill to bill jr. and down to baby brian .
    trailing arms ? front steer ? steering boxes ? is that all ? !!

    jack kissling....that's MY name - what's YOUR'S ?
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2011
  13. Troublemaker427
    Joined: Jun 27, 2006
    Posts: 1,838

    Troublemaker427
    Member

    So there was another '70 besides the one returned to a '69 recently? Was it a Boss 429 also?
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2011
  14. Dave Lyall
    Joined: Jan 3, 2010
    Posts: 104

    Dave Lyall
    Member

    There were two '69's and two '70's. The 1st one of the '69's started as a Cobra-Jet car, and the 2nd one was an original Boss 429. With the CJ-based car I started using a Holman & Moody 427 Tunnel Port. As I had re-worked the spring towers in the CJ car as I did in my AFX Falcon, (Using the Bill Stroppe-developed procedure) switching to a Boss 429 was just a bolt-in deal, and I finished the '69 season with a Boss 429 in both cars. The one surviving '70 became a donor car. The period correct, fully restored '69 car and the preceding '68 428 CJ are the sole survivor's of all seven of the Mustangs I raced prior to my Top Sportsman '98 Mustang. The '98 is still being raced (and winning) in Canada. The rest of them were wadded up by me or subsequent owners.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2011
  15. a-fordable
    Joined: Jan 2, 2010
    Posts: 47

    a-fordable
    Member

    Keep-the history lessons coming DAVE! History in the first person is allways GREAT. especialy since it is (TRUE BLUE) oval that is!!!
     
  16. Dave Lyall
    Joined: Jan 3, 2010
    Posts: 104

    Dave Lyall
    Member

    Over the years, the Holman & Moody-designed chassis was refined, using the truck trailing arms, and then the front steer, and the screw-in ball joints. But the original H&M concept and basic design is still very apparent in today's cars. As stated, the Original H&M chassis was a reproduction of the '65 galaxie frame, which was then narrowed to fit under the '66 & '67 Fairlanes and the later Torinos and Talladegas. Banjo Mathews started duplicating the chassis selling them to any one who could afford them, either bare or with the brand of sheet metal of choice.
     
  17. Race Artist
    Joined: Feb 9, 2008
    Posts: 954

    Race Artist
    Member

    Over on Facebook Sam Auxier has a picture of his Bowani Mustang as found. It was the original 1965 Tasca Ford A/FX, Holman Moody built car. Kenny Vogt's NASCAR Stinger '66-67 Comet Cammer was found a few years back. Hopefully some more of Dave Lyall's cars are out there somewhere waiting to be found. Thanks for sharing so much information about your Bob Ford '61 and '62 cars Dave ... as well as all the others. I've wondered about that '61 since the early sixties when I first saw pictures of it in Popular Hot Rodding without captions. You present the information clearly and with a great, unbiased manner even though you are a Ford man. It is pleasurable reading about racing history like this.
    Joel
     
  18. Race Artist
    Joined: Feb 9, 2008
    Posts: 954

    Race Artist
    Member

    I took this shot of Dave Lyall's tunnelport Fairlane at Atco Dragway, Atco, NJ 1967. The event was a NASCAR Grand Stock-Ultra Stock circuit meet.
    Joel
     

    Attached Files:

  19. Race Artist
    Joined: Feb 9, 2008
    Posts: 954

    Race Artist
    Member

    << Ford accused us of cheating, and if so I would not pass tech, throwing the race after taking all the other Ford’s out. We offered to let Ford Racing impound the car, take it to their garage and inspect it. They somewhat believed us, and after that Bob Ford was put on the Ford drag council.
    [/QUOTE] >>>

    Sounds like the Ford people were no different than the rest of them when they got beat.
    Joel
     
  20. Dave Lyall
    Joined: Jan 3, 2010
    Posts: 104

    Dave Lyall
    Member

    Joel:
    Thank you for your compliment, and for Atco picture. The Red F350 behind the Fairlane was our Transporter, and I believe that is me standing just behind the car.

    Atco is one of the three tracks where I ran 10.09 ET with the Fairlane. You will notice I have my usual class U/4 taped out, and U/S 1 on the window. U/S 4 was 2800 lbs, 427 inches, 2% wheelbase, gasoline, carbs and wedge engine. U/S 1 was the gasoline altered wheelbase funny cars, 2400 lbs any engine less than 430 inches. When they had a light field in U/1 (less than 8 cars, I would run that class too for the round money, In addition to running U/4 and U/S eliminator. This car had a H&M dual disc clutch. H&M TP intake, carbs, windage tray, and H&M L1P1 camshaft and kit, and the H&M transistorized Ignition. In fact, we built this car from a body-in-white, shipped to me from the H&M inventory, that was originally destined to be a NASCAR Grand National Car
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2011
  21. Dave Lyall
    Joined: Jan 3, 2010
    Posts: 104

    Dave Lyall
    Member

    >>>

    Sounds like the Ford people were no different than the rest of them when they got beat.
    Joel[/QUOTE]

    I have no comment. Dave Lyall
     
  22. Tom S. in Tn.
    Joined: Jan 16, 2011
    Posts: 1,108

    Tom S. in Tn.
    Member

    Once again, please excuse my ignorance due to my limited stock car knowledge, but would a Ford based H & M frames or chassis, excluding various drive train parts, be found under a non Ford brand stock car? Out in the wild unsanctioned track territory I suppose you could see any combo of things, but could H & M chassis be found under non Ford sheet metaled entries at NASCAR races?
    Tom S. in Tn.
     
  23. genuine jack
    Joined: Mar 6, 2011
    Posts: 268

    genuine jack
    Member

    it's all fabricated , but based on an HM modified '65 ford galaxie chassis . i assume it's still the same with the "car of tomorrow" , but i'm not positive , as i quit following nascar when that abomination came in .
     
  24. Dave Lyall
    Joined: Jan 3, 2010
    Posts: 104

    Dave Lyall
    Member

    The NASCAR cars of today are a far cry from the origins of the sport. They are, in fact "Spec Racers" and bare no dimensional resemblance to the production cars they represent. All the engines, regardless of brand, are very similar, and controlled by NASCAR rules with inspections to keep everybody honest. The production engine, which most closely resembles the current NASCAR engine, and was the design model for of all of the four brands, (Ford, Chevrolet, Dodge and Toyota) is the 351 C Ford. Although each of the brands has their own variant of a NASCAR engine, they are very similar in layout. The same goes for the NASCAR approved bodies, which each brand has a variant which uses design "signature nuances" from the production car they supposedly represent. Likewise the chassis, which are specified in great detail by NASCAR, and must pass tech at NASCAR's tech center before being given a "Certification" sticker. The chassis, and chassis components, are for all sense and purposes, Identical. NASCAR has a rule for every aspect of the sport, from Body templates to ride height, from engine dimensions to Ignition System, from spoiler angle to tire spec. NASCAR's purpose in all this is to keep the competition as close as possible, with track tuning, pit strategy, driver skill and luck determining the winner. What has evolved is some of each brands best characteristics (except Toyota, which only copied) have found their way into the NASCAR "Stock" car of today, and each one is identical, except for the nuances allowed by NASCAR to still keep some brand identify.
     
  25. Tom S. in Tn.
    Joined: Jan 16, 2011
    Posts: 1,108

    Tom S. in Tn.
    Member

    I understand race cars are of space frame design presently, but what about years past?
    From my limited knowledge of only being in the middle Tennessee fab and repair shops and local Nashville races only, I did learn Ford chassis and driveline components comprised the majority of every car of every brand, with H&M being the reference standard. That has always stuck with me about stock car racing, and hence the reason I joined the HAMB here to see and learn more.

    I saw the postings from the gentleman who owns a H&M chassis originally under a notorious mid 60's Ford that was later discovered rebodied with a newer Fairlane/Torino style sheetmetal.
    I'm left wondering if any H&M manufactured chassis could have used under a non Ford brand sheetmetaled car with a non Ford motor in NASCAR GN races? Something GM perhaps originally with an X frame, or maybe a unit body Mopar prior to fwd cars and current space frames?
    Was that ever sanction legal or possible?
    Thanks for the education; Tom S. in Tn.
     
  26. Troy H.
    Joined: Sep 20, 2011
    Posts: 8

    Troy H.
    Member
    from Canada

    H/M built numerous cars of non Ford vintage. Of note, Buck Baker's Trans Am, the early Penske AMC cars and I believe the Chevelle Jim Hurtibuise drove in the early '70's. The original Junior Johnson Monte Carlo was apparantly little more than a re-skinned Torino with a SBC in it. Until the front steer cars became popular (which had more GM than Ford in the front suspension) the H/M chassis or variations of it was under all GM and Ford cars. Chrysler products retained the torsion bar and leaf spring set up through the '80's. However, I am sure there were instances of H-M cars wearing Mopar skin, but they don't appear to be common.

    After Ford pulled the support from H/M they became a supplier of whatever type of car you wanted. The pictures from the last few years of H/M show GM A body cars next to the common Fairlane-Torino variants we tend to think of when thinking of Holman and Moody.

    This is a fascinating thread, it is an amazing group of knowledge both second had (such as myself) and first hand.

    Of note, I believe H/M built '63-ish Chevy. There is a story behind it, although I have never heard/read it. Dr. Craft often teases us with these stories :)
     
  27. KCCOS
    Joined: Sep 4, 2007
    Posts: 578

    KCCOS
    Member
    from KC

    Found this car but did not buy it. Should have.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  28. CDXXVII
    Joined: Nov 5, 2010
    Posts: 141

    CDXXVII
    Member
    from Vermont

    Is the H&M transistorized ignition based at all upon the Ford Factory 'Perma-Tune' set up that the 427 cars came with? (single point dist, amp under the dash etc)



     
  29. Dave Lyall
    Joined: Jan 3, 2010
    Posts: 104

    Dave Lyall
    Member

    The H&M transistorized ignition was used on all H&M NASCAR Fords, and on the Lemans GT40's. In all probability, it was manufactured by the Autolite Prototype Shops. It was similar to the early Ford 427 transistor Ignitions, except no points in the dist. It had a stationary magnet and a rotating spider-shaped reluctor wheel, which rotated on the outside of the stationary magnet. The distributor was equipped for a mechanical tachometer, which we used up through the 60's and into the early 70's, in conjunction with a mechanical rev control, marketed by Stahl - Moroso.
     
  30. Tom S. in Tn.
    Joined: Jan 16, 2011
    Posts: 1,108

    Tom S. in Tn.
    Member

    #909;

    " H/M built numerous cars of non Ford vintage........ Buck Baker's Trans Am, the early Penske AMC cars and I believe the Chevelle Jim Hurtibuise drove........ The original Junior Johnson Monte Carlo was apparantly little more than a re-skinned Torino with a SBC in it.......the H/M chassis or variations of it was under all GM and Ford cars....... (etc.) "

    Thank you for clarifying this for me, Troy. I never realized this until I began reading here on the HAMB, however I shouldn't be surprised due to the mass involvement H&M had with NASCAR and stock car racing.
    Appears I may have gained a few gray cells today instead of loosing them;
    Tom S. in Tn.
     

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